Did Angel even want to be human (shanshu)?

[bespangeled]

Did Angel really want to be human? In "I Will Remember You", he gave up on the prospect of becoming human. He realized that Buffy may be killed if he does that and also that he will no longer be able to fight. Was that really a special circumstance - isn't Buffy in danger of being killed on a regular basis?

I always hated the Shanshu - I think it cheapens what Angel is doing - makes it seem lie he's racking up points for a gift card. And I really do not think that's true. I'm willing to go with the idea that the Shanshu - the real boy - is Connor. And much as Angel idolizes being human, I think he would miss climbing walls and all the other vamp perks.

 

[Blaze]

Did Angel really want to be human? In "I Will Remember You", he gave up on the prospect of becoming human. He realized that Buffy may be killed if he does that and also that he will no longer be able to fight. Was that really a special circumstance - isn't Buffy in danger of being killed on a regular basis?

I always hated the Shanshu - I think it cheapens what Angel is doing - makes it seem lie he's racking up points for a gift card. And I really do not think that's true. I'm willing to go with the idea that the Shanshu - the real boy - is Connor. And much as Angel idolizes being human, I think he would miss climbing walls and all the other vamp perks.

All good points. I guess we can't blame Angel for giving up humanity in IWRY because when they said Buffy would die, he had no idea if that meant tomorrow or in 20 years. Obviously he'll imagine the worst. But we all know that Buffy died anyway, so was what Angel did really worth it, would Buffy had died sooner? Who knows.

But I'll go on a limb and say that no, at this present time Angel doesn't want to be human. I think it's something he'd want in the future when fighting is over, but in the meanwhile he likes playing the hero way too much. And don't get me wrong, that's not a bad thing, if my work would be saving people you bet your ass I would love doing it. I don't think Angel is ready to give up protecting the people he loves.

It's also true that in the end, the Sanshu isn't Angel's true goal, and he stops trying to reach that goal pretty early on.

 

[bespangeled]

All good points. I guess we can't blame Angel for giving up humanity in IWRY because when they said Buffy would die, he had no idea if that meant tomorrow or in 20 years. Obviously he'll imagine the worst. But we all know that Buffy died anyway, so was what Angel did really worth it, would Buffy had died sooner? Who knows.

But I'll go on a limb and say that no, at this present time Angel doesn't want to be human. I think it's something he'd want in the future when fighting is over, but in the meanwhile he likes playing the hero way too much. And don't get me wrong, that's not a bad thing, if my work would be saving people you bet your ass I would love doing it. I don't think Angel is ready to give up protecting the people he loves.

It's also true that in the end, the Sanshu isn't Angel's true goal, and he stops trying to reach that goal pretty early on.

It always bothered me - the idea that having the Shansu would wash your past clean (as said by Sirk and others). How can anything wash your past clean. The people you killed remain dead. The people you tortured , the families you destroyed - nothing changes for them.

I agree with you - that there will always be people who need saving.

 

[thetopher]

I think Shanshu stopped being Angel's true goal after 'Epiphany' in S2. He even says that 'if there's no greater end to all this, then all that matters is what we do.'

Viola, Shanshu invalidated, at least in Angel's mind. No great reward at the end of all the fighting. The fighting is what mattered.

The only thing that really bothered me about S5 of Angel is that, becasue Spike was on the show now, they had to dig up the whole Shanshu nonsense all over again just so they could bury it all over again. 🙁

To me, as much as I like Angel, I don't see a happy ending for him at all. More of a going out in a blaze of glory/self-sacrifice thing.

That fits much more with his whole story I think, the story a of a noble, tragic hero (especially in the Shakespearian sense.) who fights to the last.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I dont see how the Shanshu cheapens his mission, when he didn't have it at the start of his mission. It was never his goal.
Once he learned of it and it still wasn't his goal, he's not keeping a scorecard and counting down.
Giving up being human in IWRY is different to not wanting to be human, the circumstances were different, and the main benifit of the shanshu wouldn't be he's human it would be the idea that he leaves his guilt and past behind. Something he doesn't seem to believe is possible as the show goes on.

 

[white avenger]

No, I don't think that Angel ever really wanted the Shanshu, partly because, as has been pointed out, it could never wipe out his previous crimes and atrocities. They would always be with him, in his memory, and in the very thing, his soul, that made him unique for so long. All that becoming human would do would be to greatly reduce, if not completely eliminate, his ability to do the one thing that he felt gave him some useful purpose in the world, helping those in need.

And no, I'm not forgetting any kind of life with Buffy, Cordy, Nina, Gwen, or anyone else. As much as Angel might think that he wants that, I believe that Spock's words in "Amok Time" sum it up perfectly. "You will find that often actually having a thing isn't as satisfying as wanting it. That might not seem logical, but it is, all the same, true." The dream of that life is, I think, more of what gives Angel hope and happiness, that the reality ever could be.

 

[bespangeled]

I dont see how the Shanshu cheapens his mission, when he didn't have it at the start of his mission. It was never his goal.
Once he learned of it and it still wasn't his goal, he's not keeping a scorecard and counting down.
Giving up being human in IWRY is different to not wanting to be human, the circumstances were different, and the main benifit of the shanshu wouldn't be he's human it would be the idea that he leaves his guilt and past behind. Something he doesn't seem to believe is possible as the show goes on.

No problems with Angel and crew. My feeling is more about Shanshu as a concept - it's about a lousy contrivance that should never existed.. Angel told Spike exactly what he knew:

ANGEL
(walks close around Spike, whispering in his ear)
You think any of it matters? The things we did? The lives we destroyed. That's all that's ever gonna count. So, yeah, surprise. You're going to hell. We both are.
(sits on couch)

Angel and I definitely agree on this!

 

[EVIL UU]

So, let's sum it up!

1. Eternal "life"
2. A virtually endless supply of enemies to kill
3. Powers to do just that

Guys, this is as close to Valhalla as it gets. Angel's existence is what people used to imagine a warrior's paradise would look like. Why would Angel give up on that?

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Angel in S1 is different from Angel in S5. So much has happened in between then. Him and Cordy, Connor and his converstation with Buffy in 'Chosen'. I think that at the time Angel did what he thought was best for Buffy. Like he did when he left at the end of BtVS S3. I do believe that he did miss his vampire superpowers, just not sure if that was his reason for not staying human. Or maybe it was and using Buffy was just an excuse. But I think after having Connor and his talk with Buffy that, yes, someday he does want to be human and have a normal life with her. It's just going to be a long time coming and in the mean time he's going to keep trying to redeem himself.

 

[Robb Stark]

It always bothered me - the idea that having the Shansu would wash your past clean (as said by Sirk and others). How can anything wash your past clean. The people you killed remain dead. The people you tortured , the families you destroyed - nothing changes for them.

I agree with you - that there will always be people who need saving.

I don't think the Shanshu is a joke or cheapens Angel's mission at all. If anything it serves more as a hopeful future to the fans of Angel than to Angel himself. I've never deemed Angel responsible for Angelus, so to me, and I suppose it's unique to everyone, Angel doesn't have to "atone" for anything. He fights because it's the noble thing to do, and even though by the end of S5 he hasn't let go of Angelus (which is more than understandable) it's clear that the mission is what matters.

The Shanshu serves as hope. It's not about him keeping score.