Did Angel fail in his mission?

Old Master 3.0

Old Master 3.0

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Black Thorn
Angel sought redemption...that much we all know.

Because of all his heinous crimes as Angelus, he owed humanity an unpayable debt. He sought to save as many souls as he could, maybe even saving his own in the whole process. People needed him....and he did his job. That was what was important.

To me, by going on his little suicide mission in the end, Angel turned his back on everyone and everything he was supposed to fight for.
He practically brought Hell down on himself...knowing he wouldn't survive, and left all the innocent people on Earth including his own son to die in the subsequent war, or survive to deal with the consequences of his actions. Did Angel die a hero? I dunno....to me, he just got himself and his crew killed....and left the people minus their champions.




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nerd4hire
nerd4hire
Good thread idea.
Oooh...that's a scary topic...yeah, I was a little disapointed by that whole deal...I see where he was coming from but he DID know that it wouldn't make THAT big of a difference...well, I guess it would depend on HOW bad they threw evil off track and for how long. For all we know he could have saved thousands of lives in the long run. I guess we'll just have to pray for a movie to answer some questions. But I had that same question mulling over in my mind as well...it was pretty disapointing...I hope we get our answers someday soon.
 
I agree with Rayne, this is a scary topic. I also agree with both of you in saying that it does seem like he gave up. To me it seemed like he got impatient "fighting the good fight" and decided to up the ante. I agree that it was disappointing and as Rayne said, hopefully there will be a movie where we can find out the answers.
 
I sorta wonder if this ending would have gone no matter if the WB cancelled it or not. I mean, if there were a season six....seven....eight? Would this ending remain? Because I kind of think of the 'giving up' being meant towards the WB. I mean, I know Whedon prolly didn't, but that's how I see it. Joss Whedon had been fighting the good fight against reality TV. When they cancelled Angel, maybe he just gave up. Allowing the apocolypse to come: Allowing the reality showsto continue. Just my theory.
 
I'd read that the S5 ending would've been more or less the same with S6 taking place in a post-apocalyptic world.
I think Angel was going for a last hurrah as he'd realised that the fight was never-ending, possibly thinking he could get the PTB to sit up and take notice and do something positive instead of not doing anything which seemed to be the case throughout most of the last 2 seasons...
 
There is a part of me that thinks he did make it and a part that isn't so sure. Its kinda hard for me to see Angel gone. As for the fight, it kinda seemed to me like he was just jumping into it with no idea what he was doing and to him it didn't matter if he made it or not.
 
Mr. Pointy said:
I'd read that the S5 ending would've been more or less the same with S6 taking place in a post-apocalyptic world.
I think Angel was going for a last hurrah as he'd realised that the fight was never-ending, possibly thinking he could get the PTB to sit up and take notice and do something positive instead of not doing anything which seemed to be the case throughout most of the last 2 seasons...
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Good point. I think Angel did realize that the fight was everlasting and that not even he, a champion, could end it.
 
Well I happen to think budget cuts were a huge reason why they did it that way, forced to hardly go anywhere but W&H, although they did use all they're money up in the last ep.
Anyway, I do believe that Angel did both.
-As said before he got himself and most of his friends killed (we assume).
-BUT, he was able to piss off W&H by killing the MAIN baddies, causing chaos in the evil community. and theres always the slayers/potentials who now have time to gather forces, start up a new council? and take advantage of the situation.
 
I don't think Angel turned his back on the fight...rather than he had to take his fight to the next level in order to get anything accomplished because no matter what he did during the run of ATS, there was always something else, something bigger awaiting. I would have loved to see a post-apocalyptic S6 to see the result of his actions.
 
who's to say that Angel really failed? We know he managed to decimate the Circle, effectively preventing the apocalypse. And even once he was done with that, he was ready to battle a legion of demons, just moments after the loss of his best friend. I'd say that Angel not only succeeded in his mission, but has an even stronger committment to it now, assuming he survived.
 
C
Cordelia
Great points!
I don't think that Angel failed, but I think he lost track of the mission, like he did in the middle of season two. I think he summed up his original mission best in "Epiphany":

Angel: It doesn't...mean anything. In the greater scheme or the big picture, nothing we do matters. There's no grand plan, no big win...I guess I kinda worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do, 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward, finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it.

Kate: And now you do?

Angel: Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world.
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I think that Anne was the only one in "Not Fade Away" that really had a good view of what really had to be done, when she made it clear to Gunn that come hell or high water she was going to be there to fight the good fight.

Gunn: Still fighting the good fight, huh?

Annie: That's the drill. How are things uptown?

Gunn: More fight, less good

...................................................................​
Gunn: What if I told you it doesn't help? What would you do if you found out that none of it matters? That it's all controlled by forces more powerful and uncaring than we can conceive, and they will never let it get better down here. What would you do?

Annie: I'd get this truck packed before the new stuff gets here. (Gunn nods) Wanna give me a hand?
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Compare this with Angel's statement in "Power Play"

Angel: 10-to-1, we're gone when the smoke clears. They will do everything in their power to destroy us. So...I need you to be sure. Power endures. We can't bring down the senior partners, but for one bright, shining moment, we can show them that they don't own us. You need to decide for yourselves if that's worth dying for. I can't order you to do this. I can't do it without you. So we'll vote. As a team. Think about what I'm asking you to do, think about what I'm asking you to give.
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Angel was sacrificing himself and his friends--people with so much capacity for good, just to make a statement. They weren't saving anyone--bringing about apocalypse was more likely to kill innocents than to save them, but Angel didn't care. Once again, he was fighting just to beat the other guy, not to help the people who had nowhere else to turn. I think that was the tragedy of the ending, and i hope, if there are movies, Angel finds his way out of the fog that cost three of his friends their lives.

When Lindsey left the first time, he gave Angel only one piece of advice:

Lindsey: The key to Wolfram and Hart: don't let them make you play their game. - You gotta make them play yours.
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I just wish Angel had remembered that.
 
I never really thought about it that way...but what you say makes sense. It is almost as if he turned his back on all those innocents, and all the people he loved and cared about. Leaving them to a hopeless battle they can never win. Possibly getting himself and his gang killed.

He, in my opinion, can never completely make up for all the lives lost at his own hands...because he can't bring those people back, but he can find redemption. He could have gotten to the point where yes...those people were killed when he was evil...but he is not that person anymore and he can turn around and at least try to make up for the lives lost, but in the finale it seems as if he forgets about all that.
 
Circle of Black Thornes were going to bring about the ruination of mankind, also known as the apocalypse. Angel and company murdered every member. I'd say that saved a lot of innocents. Additionally, he then took on a large number of demons, of which I'm sure he, Spike, Illariya and Gunn killed at least a few, if not all. These demons were likely of the evil variety, so again, Angel Investigations saved innocents by taking some/all of them out.
 
I'm not sure facing the unbeatable foe is giving up in Angel's case. Angel has never feared death. His priority always seemed to be to try to do what he felt was right, and if he died, oh well...

Here's another view of his mission statement:

Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. - It's harsh, and cruel. - But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be
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I think the question should be did he remain true to that, and if he did, he just did what what you would expect Angel to do. If he didn't, then he failed, and in the end he gave up.
 
Angel: Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world.
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I think with this quote from Epiphany he abandoned his whole original mission anyway. But I still don't see how bringing on the apacolypse can be an act of kindness, small or large 🙂
 
I agree, Cordy_Chase,

Angel's mission has changed multiple times over the years.

1-(as Liam) get drunk and laid (not nescissarily in that order)

2-(as Angelus) Preform artful kills (and don't get killed by Holz)

3-(after ensoulment) Find Darla

4-Wallow in self-pity

5-Help Buffy

6-Kill Buffy/End the world

7-Help people who need it (S1-2)

8-Get Wolfram and Hart by whatever means nescisary (S2)

9-Help people who need it (S2-3)

10-Get Holz by whatever means nescisary (S3)

11-Help people who need it (S4)

12-Get Jasmine by whatever means nescisary (S4)

13-Get Wolfram and Hart by whatever means nescisary (S5)


Did he fail? That all depends on which mission you're referring to. I prefer numbers 7, 9, and 11, but that doesn't mean the rest of you should.
 
I think the apocalypse was coming, just not for a long time. Angel and co's actions stepped up the timetable, causing armageddon to happen a whole lot sooner.
 
eset said:
I think the apocalypse was coming, just not for a long time. Angel and co's actions stepped up the timetable, causing armageddon to happen a whole lot sooner.
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Has this been stated as a fact? Or is this an excuse for his actions?

Why does Angel need a mission, anyway? Why couldn't he simply make a life of his own? Or was he incapable of doing just that?
 
The apocalypse from ATS s5, was a more slow moving one than those we've seen in either shows. I think it was one that was to be meticulously planned out so that it would be difficult for "those pesky kids" to stop it. Plus they would already be so far into their plan, by the time anyone even noticed what was going on.

Angel stepped it up and brought the fight to them before they could finalize their plans, thus bringing forth armageddon quicker than previously planned. Or its just my arse talking again...
 
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