Did Angel love the Fang Gang?

[Carrie Hopewell]

I feel like a lot of the fandom believes that Angel loves his friends. I personally believe he doesn't most of the time and sometimes I believe he does. So I decided to ask your opinion. I’ll try to explain my reasoning first:

When Angel was human he had an estranged relationship with his dad and only appeared to be close to his kid sister. I think if growing up you have difficulties connecting with people and if your first relationships weren't very positive, then that determines and influences the kind of relationships you have as an adult. I think that explains why Angel never had an easy time with relationships (of any kind) and why he doesn't love easily.
Then, Darla turned him into a demon without a soul which, in Angel’s opinion, seemed to negate the possibility of love and meaningful attachments. After getting ensouled, Angel spent a 100 years just coping with what he had become. He was a lonely person and loneliness just doesn’t go away once you find someone (in his case Buffy). He loved Buffy genuinely and, although it didn’t erase his loneliness entirely, he was able to commit fully to the relationship, to not feel alone around her.

In LA, he found a real friend in Doyle and then Cordy and Wes. But he says in Sanctuary “That's great. - It's nice - you moved on. - I can't. You found someone new. - I'm not allowed to, remember? I see you again it cuts me up inside and the person I share that with is me!” which suggests there’s still no one he feels he can share his thoughts and feelings with (not only with a girlfriend), while implying that he used to with Buffy. At the end of the season Angel tells Gun “These people mean a lot to me.” (TSILA), so he does care for Cordy and Wes, deeply, but it’s still not love – something that becomes obvious in season 2. No one, other than Angel himself, was able to help him from quickly spiraling into a depression. He didn’t open up to his friends and they didn’t try very hard to help him.

Season 3 Angel is a lot about family dynamics. And, frankly, it all falls apart so spectacularly that it only confirms how alone the members of the group still were and how fragile their relationships were. Angel has a sibling-like bond with Cordy before every character on the show decides they’re in love - his confusion about how he felt towards her is pretty baffling... At this point I feel like he already had enough time to grow into loving Wes, Cordy, maybe Gunn… but it never felt like he did. He had a lot of opportunities to tell Cordy he loved her and yet was always unsure about the depth of his feelings; there are a lot of instances in season 3 where Angel opens up a bit to Wes and mainly Cordy, but to me, it felt he was being guarded. He cried in front of Buffy, he touched her casually, he was vulnerable often. The same happened with Connor (to a lesser extent because of the different circumstances), namely in Tomorrow or Home. I'm not a Cangel fan, but for the same reasons, I doubt he was in love with Cordy.

To summarize, Angel cared deeply for everyone. And the thing is, if you look exclusively at his actions, it might seem like he loves them because of what he does for them. But Angel never tells any of them he loves them nor does he refer to them as loved ones. What I'm saying is, even if most of us would call it love, he probably doesn't. Hope that made sense.

So what do you think? From his perspective, would he call it love?

 

[Ethan Reigns]

He fired his entire company. It's not like he wasn't more comfortable without them. He also makes a threat at one point that he is going to "share his feelings" on some guy he intends to kill.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

He fired his entire company. It's not like he wasn't more comfortable without them.

Yes, but that does happen during season 2 and during his dark phase. Not trying to excuse his behavior since he made a lot of selfish decisions during that time, but I also believe he really needed help and no one tried hard enough. I take it you don't believe he loved them at the end of the show? I think you're trying to say that he was cruel to them?

 

[brinkster130]

I think he did love them, but that he didn't feel he deserved to experience that and express it. Like you said, he's had a rocky past when it comes to relationships, and with the curse, his guilt, and self hate he isn't able or comfortable verbally expressing those feelings. That being said, all that he's been through has enabled him to switch off his emotions when needed - which I think is what we saw when he fired the fang gang and went about on his own for a bit.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

I think he did love them, but that he didn't feel he deserved to experience that and express it. Like you said, he's had a rocky past when it comes to relationships, and with the curse, his guilt, and self hate he isn't able or comfortable verbally expressing those feelings. That being said, all that he's been through has enabled him to switch off his emotions when needed - which I think is what we saw when he fired the fang gang and went about on his own for a bit.

I think he's always kind of detached from humanity - he's an introvert and constantly in his own mind which makes it harder for him to live in the present and makes it easier for him to do what needs to be done without his feelings getting too much in the way. Buffy becomes that way also in the end, for example, she tells Giles that it's becoming harder for her to say "I love you". But do you believe he loved them as early as the second season? I feel a bit like the Fang Gang's closeness is exaggerated at times. I would say that after the Darla arc and the Pylea arc, season 3 is really when they spend a lot of time together, handling crisis has a group. You see, right now I think he loved them! Tomorrow I'll probably say otherwise...

 

[bespangeled]

He made the decision to take away their memories. If that's love - spare me.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

I think as a parent he made the right choice. He gave Connor a nice life as a normal kid instead of a dangerous one as the son of a vampire. Connor was a minor and he was Angel's son. Angel has the responsibility as a parent to make the best decision for his child. Connor had endured more than he was capable of handling, he was suicidal and homicidal. Between a dead kid and one with fake memories, I honestly think the fake memories are better. I don't think you know why everyone else's memories had to be wiped or what was the cost of giving Connor a new life. From what I know about Angel maybe he didn't love his friends but he cared about them. The memory wipe doesn't prove he doesn't love them just like Wesley taking Connor away doesn't prove he didn't love the baby. Love isn't cut and dry, unfortunately.

 

[white avenger]

I never saw Angel as a particularly loving, or lovable, for that matter, character. That's what made his feelings for Buffy , and for Cordy, so special. And, I guess, he loved Connor, in a sort of obligatory way. He was, after all, his one and only, literally impossible, child. Parental pride and instinct is its own form of love, or at least should be.

He liked the people who worked with him, in a way that he never did any of Buffy's friends (which is okay, because they never really liked him either) He was loyal to them, and honest, as long as it suited his purposes to be. He even trusted them, to some extent, but I really can't even see him hauling out a video tape of any one of them 4 years after their death, and I don't really think that he actually loved Doyle. It's just that Doyle was the closest thing to a friend that Angel has ever had.

And Faith? Let's not forget her. He bonded with Faith, because they were, in a way, kindred spirits. Faith, like Liam, probably had far more unpleasant memories than pleasant of growing up, and both were more or less apparently sucked into their new lives, as Slayer or vampire, without a whole lot of choice in the matter, both wound up using their newfound abilities to harm, rather than help, and both truly regretted that dark time enough to sincerely try and make some amends for the harm that they had done. Also, both seemed bound to constantly bound to screw up regularly in the attempt. That's not really love, though, more just the mutual loyalty and trust of two damaged spirits traveling the same road together.

(Incidentally, I also think that there was only one person who Faith ever really loved. That's something else that they had in common, either way that you choose to interpret it)

 

[Monkey Pants]

I always felt that Angel loved every member of the Fang Gang. Look how broken up he was when Fred died.

Incidentally, I also think that there was only one person who Faith ever really loved.

Love of Buffy is another thing these two have in common 😉

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

I never saw Angel as a particularly loving, or lovable, for that matter, character.

Don't agree with that part since I love Angel... But I you got my point so thanks! Also I decide not to quote everything you said, otherwise the post would be very long.

I don't think he loved Connor in a obligatory way. He was his son. You don't, at the very least initially, love your kid for who he is as a person I suppose. But if you can consider the love of a parent obligatory, you have to include other kinds of love in your definition of obligatory love. People don't usually have much of a choice in any kind of love (though obviously you can chose the relationship your in).

Angel, like I tried to explain, doesn't love very easily. I'm like that. I love Angel because I get him: his loneliness, emotional detachment, bad self-esteem (and all the qualities he also has). I think he's misunderstood....Anyway, the only people I love are my parents and only because I grew up loving them. They're not even good parents and they're pretty ****ed up individuals. I still think they're lovable and I'm not saying this because I love them - most people are worth loving. I always have the feeling that I could lose almost everyone I know and not care. But I know that's not actually true. I can care though and be loyal, even if I can't say I love you out loud or feel it. I think Angel is a bit this way.

He did care for Doyle and the Fang Gang, truly. I think he didn't care much for the Scoobies, they didn't really bond or anything. He did have some sort of friendship with Willow, I think.

He even trusted them, to some extent, but I really can't even see him hauling out a video tape of any one of them 4 years after their death, and I don't really think that he actually loved Doyle. It's just that Doyle was the closest thing to a friend that Angel has ever had.

He didn't love Doyle, never got the time to. Angel wouldn't do video tapes for his friends, but that doesn't mean much. He's very capable of moving past his feelings. He had to after everything he did as Angelus. Emotional numbness is something you have to do when you live like Angel. Buffy is guilty of doing it too.

I didn't forget about Faith exactly, she just wasn't a huge part of the show and I don't read the comics. I really enjoyed their friendship and what you said was spot on. A lot of that applies to Buffy as well. I think Buffy and Angel connected at first because they were both unique (only slayer, only vamp with a soul), forced into their circumstances and isolated by them.

(Incidentally, I also think that there was only one person who Faith ever really loved. That's something else that they had in common, either way that you choose to interpret it)

That doesn't apply to Angel since he also loved Connor besides Buffy (if we don't count the others).

I have a question though. Why do you think he loved Cordy? His feelings for Cordy in season 3 seemed motivated by his desire to have a family unit and by loneliness. Just in late season 2 (and early season 3?) he scoffed when someone asked if she was his girlfriend - and I don't believe that means he secretly loved her. I don't get the idea that everything comes down to denial. Besides, if you think he didn't even care genuinely about Doyle, only about the concept of having a friend, you could say that the feelings he had for Cordy - the ones that went beyond what he felt for Wes - were kind of illusory.

And now I think he didn't love them... This is insane, I've never been this undecided about anything.

 

[white avenger]

Why do you think he loved Cordy? His feelings for Cordy in season 3 seemed motivated by his desire to have a family unit and by loneliness.

You pretty much answered your own question. Angel wanted a family. He'd probably wanted that even as Liam . Connor coming along certainly magnified that desire, but it had to be there initially in order for that magnification to ever happen. As for Cordy, I said "loved," not "was in love with." That's a whole different argument, and really something that I don't feel qualified to undertake. I do, however, think that he saw her as a potential mother for Connor (let's not get into what that makes Connor in Season 4) He didn't have to be in love with her to make her his wife, but I think that, if the opportunity hadn't been snatched away when Wes took Connor, that's what we would have seen. Angel and Cordy as husband and wife.at least figuratively (which would have made sex with her as safe as it ever was with Nina, by the way) with Connor as their son.

(By the way, totally off subject, it's always nice to see another obvious "Banshee" fan. I hate that that show was cancelled. I was really looking forward to Season 12, as well as all of the Seasons leading up to there, with Eliza as a regular on to the end)

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

He didn't have to be in love with her to make her his wife, but I think that, if the opportunity hadn't been snatched away when Wes took Connor, that's what we would have seen.

It seemed to be headed that way, but considering how things unfolded they were doomed by the writers from the beginning. Their romance was just pointless and hurt their characters for a while. Maybe he loved her, I don't think I'll ever have a definite answer. Also, Angel was in the la la la land when Connor was a baby. It was Buffy S2 all over again. He thought he could have the perfect normal family... The baby would age and die while the father remained young forever, same for Cordelia and everyone else. Actually, when Angel said "I thought love was - something that swallowed you whole, ripped you up inside, but, you know, what I feel for Connor, even that fear...- Wes, it's - it's not terrible. It's beautiful." I knew things were going to get bad for him.

(By the way, totally off subject, it's always nice to see another obvious "Banshee" fan. I hate that that show was cancelled. I was really looking forward to Season 12, as well as all of the Seasons leading up to there, with Eliza as a regular on to the end)

I love Banshee! And Eliza was great in it. I loved her character and her relationship with Hood was very interesting. I was glad initially to know season 4 was going to be the last. I like shows that don't drag on indefinitely. Usually by season 5 there's a drop in quality. Season 4 started out slow but ended so brilliantly! The last 3 episodes or so were one of the finest Banshee episodes ever. When I started watching the last episode, or even before that - when I saw the title "Requiem" - I was like "I'm not ready. I'm not ready. I'm not ready for this to end". I cried A LOT. And I wanted Carrie and Hood to end up together. I shipped them since episode 1. They wrapped up all the characters stories in a really satisfying way though. As for my username, I'm awful at coming up with names... White Avenger is so much more creative... Plus, I love Carrie/Anne!

 

[Mr Trick]

I think part of the reason he fired Wes, Cordy and Gunn was because for him he was pretecting them. He saw a fresh and very serious threat in the Darla and Drusella and I do think that was a factor. And in his mind he had to resort to extreme measures to deal with this and maybe knew that the rest maybe wouldn't be on board with that.

 

[bespangeled]

I think as a parent he made the right choice.

You're probably right. By that time he didn't have much in the way of options.

I don't think you know why everyone else's memories had to be wiped or what was the cost of giving Connor a new life. From what I know about Angel maybe he didn't love his friends but he cared about them.

And there is the problem. To keep his secret safe - the fact that he had reality altered and that was why he took the W&H job - he had the memories of his friends altered (or allowed them to be altered). If love is in actions taken, and not just words and feelings, then he really loved his son.

That's the essence of Angel in a way - he gives everyone what he thinks they would want, and he never just listens to any of them to find out what they really might want. He is in control, and/or he is fundamentally alone - for 200+ years it was the only way he survived. It's the reason why Spike and Angel work together so well - shared history and a knowledge of how to push each others buttons.

But I know that's not actually true. I can care though and be loyal, even if I can't say I love you out loud or feel it. I think Angel is a bit this way.

I agree - I think Angel actually finds it easier to take care of people he doesn't love. He knows what to do then - rescue them. Bite and avoid now includes rescue and protect - but he never quite learns listen, hear, communicate. He has to be in charge, and actually listening to what people really need can mean he will have to either give up control or disappoint them. He cares intensely - and when that's all that is needed he is brilliant. But he can't change his basic nature however much he loves. It's easier for him to sacrifice himself than to sacrifice control.

I think part of the reason he fired Wes, Cordy and Gunn was because for him he was pretecting them. He saw a fresh and very serious threat in the Darla and Drusella and I do think that was a factor. And in his mind he had to resort to extreme measures to deal with this and maybe knew that the rest maybe wouldn't be on board with that.

Firing them didn't protect them from Dru and Darla, but he was deliberately allowing himself to go dark. There was an element of choice there:

Wesley: "Listen to her! Right now the three of us are all that's standing between you and real darkness."
Gunn: "Best believe that, man."
Angel quietly after a beat: "I do. - You're all fired."

If that was to protect his friends it wouldn't have taken five episodes before he even tried to get back together with them. It looked more like he decided to just cut off all human ties in order to achieve his goal, and it took a big epiphany to make him decide he wanted those ties back.

 

[Mr Trick]

You're probably right. By that time he didn't have much in the way of options.



And there is the problem. To keep his secret safe - the fact that he had reality altered and that was why he took the W&H job - he had the memories of his friends altered (or allowed them to be altered). If love is in actions taken, and not just words and feelings, then he really loved his son.

That's the essence of Angel in a way - he gives everyone what he thinks they would want, and he never just listens to any of them to find out what they really might want. He is in control, and/or he is fundamentally alone - for 200+ years it was the only way he survived. It's the reason why Spike and Angel work together so well - shared history and a knowledge of how to push each others buttons.



I agree - I think Angel actually finds it easier to take care of people he doesn't love. He knows what to do then - rescue them. Bite and avoid now includes rescue and protect - but he never quite learns listen, hear, communicate. He has to be in charge, and actually listening to what people really need can mean he will have to either give up control or disappoint them. He cares intensely - and when that's all that is needed he is brilliant. But he can't change his basic nature however much he loves. It's easier for him to sacrifice himself than to sacrifice control.



Firing them didn't protect them from Dru and Darla, but he was deliberately allowing himself to go dark. There was an element of choice there:

Wesley: "Listen to her! Right now the three of us are all that's standing between you and real darkness."
Gunn: "Best believe that, man."
Angel quietly after a beat: "I do. - You're all fired."

If that was to protect his friends it wouldn't have taken five episodes before he even tried to get back together with them. It looked more like he decided to just cut off all human ties in order to achieve his goal, and it took a big epiphany to make him decide he wanted those ties back.

Sure, Angel was in a dark place and that was the main reason, but I still think he did it partly to protect them also. Not saying he made the right choice, certainly not for himself but in his mind at least I think he believed it would be best for them if they weren't involved during the war with Darla and Dru.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

I agree - I think Angel actually finds it easier to take care of people he doesn't love. He knows what to do then - rescue them. Bite and avoid now includes rescue and protect - but he never quite learns listen, hear, communicate. He has to be in charge, and actually listening to what people really need can mean he will have to either give up control or disappoint them. He cares intensely - and when that's all that is needed he is brilliant. But he can't change his basic nature however much he loves. It's easier for him to sacrifice himself than to sacrifice control.

I'm sorry, but that's not what entirely what I meant. I mean, doing right by strangers is always easier than doing right by people you care about. But he can do right by those he loves. He did better by Connor in the end than Buffy did by Dawn. While Buffy let Dawn live on a Hellmouth and be subjected to danger daily instead of, for example, sending her away; Angel gave his son up in order for him to have a safe, happy life. And by doing that he lost "control" of Connor. He leaves Buffy to give her the normal life she desperately wanted - if she could bring herself to actually break up with him. And while he did take the choice away from her, you have a right to break up with someone if you want to and Buffy had already tried to do so several times. He didn't make that decision to be in control, in fact, for most of their relationship, Buffy was more in control.

Honestly, I don't believe he always needs to be in control - he wants to be in charge of his life, but doesn't thrive on the power of controlling people or manipulating situations to his advantage. You have to remember that Angel was alone for a long time, he is used to making decisions by himself and unused to relying on other people. The fact that he sometimes doesn't listen to advice when it's given to him as more to do with a centuries old way of being than with Angel being a control freak or being afraid of disappointing people. He doesn't fire the AI team for fear of disappointing them (he already had) or to remain in control of the situation (he already had it, they couldn't stop him). And if you take in consideration how he does listen to Cordelia in season 3 and even season 4 with fake Cordy (she convinced him to bring forth Angelus), he is learning how to be a better team player. The main thing here seems to be our different views of his nature. I have to agree he isn't the best listener, he needs to work on that and obviously love doesn't change the way you are. However, he allows the people he loves and who love him back to help him. Also, though agreeableness has to do with your personality, I don't believe it's the issue here - like I said before, when all you have is yourself, your decisions and opinions are important to you. To me there's a difference between doing something out of habit while very slowly changing your ways and being controlling by nature. Lastly I want to add that he did give up control and let the fate of his life rest on someone else multiple times - with Whistler whom he followed almost blindly, both "Close your eyes" scenes, when he finally handed his baby over to Cordy, when he was okay with Wes taking charge of AI (he differed to him against his instincts), etc
 

Sure, Angel was in a dark place and that was the main reason, but I still think he did it partly to protect them also. Not saying he made the right choice, certainly not for himself but in his mind at least I think he believed it would be best for them if they weren't involved during the war with Darla and Dru.

I agree. I want to add that I think they failed him more than he failed them. Angel was having a depressive episode. Depressed people are often selfish and exhibit bad judgment. They were aware he was heading towards self destruction and firing his team was an obvious tell - they should have tried harder.

 

[Mr Trick]

I'm sorry, but that's not what entirely what I meant. I mean, doing right by strangers is always easier than doing right by people you care about. But he can do right by those he loves. He did better by Connor in the end than Buffy did by Dawn. While Buffy let Dawn live on a Hellmouth and be subjected to danger daily instead of, for example, sending her away; Angel gave his son up in order for him to have a safe, happy life. And by doing that he lost "control" of Connor. He leaves Buffy to give her the normal life she desperately wanted - if she could bring herself to actually break up with him. And while he did take the choice away from her, you have a right to break up with someone if you want to and Buffy had already tried to do so several times. He didn't make that decision to be in control, in fact, for most of their relationship, Buffy was more in control.

Honestly, I don't believe he always needs to be in control - he wants to be in charge of his life, but doesn't thrive on the power of controlling people or manipulating situations to his advantage. You have to remember that Angel was alone for a long time, he is used to making decisions by himself and unused to relying on other people. The fact that he sometimes doesn't listen to advice when it's given to him as more to do with a centuries old way of being than with Angel being a control freak or being afraid of disappointing people. He doesn't fire the AI team for fear of disappointing them (he already had) or to remain in control of the situation (he already had it, they couldn't stop him). And if you take in consideration how he does listen to Cordelia in season 3 and even season 4 with fake Cordy (she convinced him to bring forth Angelus), he is learning how to be a better team player. The main thing here seems to be our different views of his nature. I have to agree he isn't the best listener, he needs to work on that and obviously love doesn't change the way you are. However, he allows the people he loves and who love him back to help him. Also, though agreeableness has to do with your personality, I don't believe it's the issue here - like I said before, when all you have is yourself, your decisions and opinions are important to you. To me there's a difference between doing something out of habit while very slowly changing your ways and being controlling by nature. Lastly I want to add that he did give up control and let the fate of his life rest on someone else multiple times - with Whistler whom he followed almost blindly, both "Close your eyes" scenes, when he finally handed his baby over to Cordy, when he was okay with Wes taking charge of AI (he differed to him against his instincts), etc
 


I agree. I want to add that I think they failed him more than he failed them. Angel was having a depressive episode. Depressed people are often selfish and exhibit bad judgment. They were aware he was heading towards self destruction and firing his team was an obvious tell - they should have tried harder.

Not sure about this. They did try to help him, btu could only do so much. It was about him wanting to be helped or not as the case maybe. He was their boss don't forget and can be quite stuborn. I don't put much blame on Cordy, Wes and Gunn.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

Not sure about this. They did try to help him, btu could only do so much. It was about him wanting to be helped or not as the case maybe. He was their boss don't forget and can be quite stuborn. I don't put much blame on Cordy, Wes and Gunn.

I get what you're saying - he didn't want to be helped, but I still believe they didn't try hard enough. Angel is stubborn and difficult to help, but Buffy in Amends tried harder than that to help him and I know season 3 Cordy would what have too. During season 2 Angel was their boss, but he was more like the leader - their relationship wasn't very formal, they were all friends. I'm honestly surprised Cordy didn't give Angel a verbal smackdown.

 

[Mr Trick]

I get what you're saying - he didn't want to be helped, but I still believe they didn't try hard enough. Angel is stubborn and difficult to help, but Buffy in Amends tried harder than that to help him and I know season 3 Cordy would what have too. During season 2 Angel was their boss, but he was more like the leader - their relationship wasn't very formal, they were all friends. I'm honestly surprised Cordy didn't give Angel a verbal smackdown.

Not sure they were friends really. Cordy and Angel maybe were causal friends but even at that stage I don't think they were that close. Certainly don't see a friendship between Angel and Gunn or Angel and Wesley. That came later if at all. At this point, it was mostly about business. Sure they respected each other of course. One of the differences between the Scoobies and Angel's team was that the Scoobies were friends from the start, whereas with Angel and co. it was more about the misson, or a bit more business like.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

Not sure they were friends really. Cordy and Angel maybe were causal friends but even at that stage I don't think they were that close. Certainly don't see a friendship between Angel and Gunn or Angel and Wesley. That came later if at all. At this point, it was mostly about business. Sure they respected each other of course. One of the differences between the Scoobies and Angel's team was that the Scoobies were friends from the start, whereas with Angel and co. it was more about the misson, or a bit more business like.

You're not wrong about that. But damn Angel really needed a lifeline. I do believe they cared about each other at that point and that there was never a very obvious hierarchy - and Cordy talked back a lot for an employee. But, I actually get defensive about this because I've seen a lot of fans bragging about the Fang Gang's close friendship from the beginning when a) if they were close friends, they were certainly bad ones or b) they weren't close friends at all.