Did Angel make the right choice?

groovygarden said:
I have to admit that I'm a complete Cordy/Angel fan, but I've just watched Prom and don't get why A left...

I agree with the earlier poster that Angel going was best for the show, but if we leave that aside, I don't get why Angel & Buffy the characters felt they had to part...? There were problems (no jiggy, no kids, Buffy ageing) but these same problems existed for Cordy and Angel and yet Angel seemed to want to give that relationship a shot. And anyway, as a Slayer, did anyone actually expect B to have a chance to be in functional relationships, grow old, have kids etc?

Thoughts?

PS: Hi all. I'm new! Got Buffy 1-7 DVDs for xmas, and am rediscovering the joys...
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Well...

I kind of compare this to another of my favorite characters on another show (Robin on GH, coincidentally, the actress who plays her is the former live-in love of SMG's husband). This character has HIV, so she has an abbreviated lifespan. She's only 30, but now that she's got her dream career, her fans are pushing pretty hard for the dream wedding and the baby (not necessarily in that order -- Robin's pregnancy is making me do a happy dance!) because not only is that what she always wanted for herself, but it's what her first love wanted, too. Unfortunately, her new love isn't so much stepping up the plate. That makes the long time fans groan and miss the dead guy. lol. HE would have been tickled to death if Robin had gotten pregnant instead of getting HIV.

The point here is that neither Robin's abbreviated lifespan nor the inherent danger involved in an HIV+ person seeking these things puts the kabosh on the desire to have them. Instead, it sort of makes the clock tick faster. I think the same thing is happening with Buffy. She's got to experience as much as she can with the time she's got left. Just as Stone (the now-dead first love) wanted all of that for Robin because he, as someone who couldn't have it, realized how precious it was, I think Angel wants a taste of that normal life for Buffy because, as someone who can't have it, he realizes how precious a normal life is. Where the analogy falls apart is that Stone couldn't help but die, (he did NOT do it willingly; *cries*) while Angel voluntarily up and left.

Angel wants Buffy to have a life that he can't give her. That's good and noble and wonderful and everything. I've got no complaints with the sentiment. My issue with Angel is that he didn't even bother to ask Buffy what she wanted or to try to work it out. Based on the men she chose later, (a juiced up demon fighter and another vamp) it doesn't look as though she wanted a "normal" boyfriend. She wanted a man who could stand beside her against the forces of evil. She wanted a partner. An equal. A friend who could understand and participate in her life as a slayer. Angel could have been that man if he hadn't been foolish enough not to trust Buffy's judgment of what Buffy wanted/needed.
 
After watching the prom episode I don't think Angel had any intention of leaving or breaking up with buffy until Joyce came along and talked to him. I was upset with Joyce in this episode but I can understand where she comes from.
Joyce: Good, because when it comes to you angel she's just like any other woman in love, your all she can see of tomorrow. but I think we both know that their are some hard choices ahead if she can't make them Your going to have to.
Yes Buffy is 17 in this and she does have her whole life ahead of her, but why didn't Joyce try to talk to Buffy about her relationship with Angel? I wonder if she thought buffy would even listen to her and that's why she went to Angel and IMO- give him a guilt trip about makeing the right decision for buffy if she's not capable of it.
Joyce:I know you care about her I just hope you care enough.
----I'd wright more but I gotta go to work --- seeya
 
Agreed. If Joyce hadn't put the idea (and the guilt) into Angel's head, I don't think he would have left. Naughty Joyce.

Palabravampiress makes a good point above. Although no one says it, everyone knows that Buffy's life expectancy is pretty short, and that could explain why B/A's relationship was so intense and angsty.

So maybe Angel left to give her "normal", instead of "this freakshow". On one hand that makes sense, but on the other, B's life is so far from normal, why bother? Better to have someone who can be a boyf and evil-fighting partner, rather than, say, a Scott Hope type.

And why were things different with Angel & Cordy? How come Angel thought a "freakshow" was OK for her but not for Buffy? I'm sure Cordy could have done with a bit of safe and normal in her life too! Maybe Angel had grown up a bit by then? A&C's relationship seemed to be based on friendship, rather than fueled by angst!
 
I think the reason that Angel didn't feel like he was keeping Cordy from a normal life ar two fold.

1. Cordy chose to be part of the world of demons and monsters. She had the normal life, she knew what she was giving up, was offered a normal existence as an actress but turned it down to continue to fight and help Angel. Cordy knew what she was doing, Buffy at the time hadn't even graduated High School. There was a whole other world waiting for her, or at least that is what Angel believed. Cordy had had the chance to experience both and then decide Buffy hadn't and really would never had if Angel hadn't pushed it.

2. The curse, one the main reasons for Angel's departure. Why was he not worried about it with Cordy? Honestly i think it's because Angel didn't believe he would achieve perfect happiness with Cordy. Sure he loved her, but you only have one soulmate and she was in Sunnydale. His soul would have benn safe if they ever did get around to Kumshukking.
 
G
groovygarden
Good point about Cordy having a choice. Can't agree with 2 though, I'm stuck in my Cangel ways!
Keanoite said:
I think the reason that Angel didn't feel like he was keeping Cordy from a normal life ar two fold.

1. Cordy chose to be part of the world of demons and monsters. She had the normal life, she knew what she was giving up, was offered a normal existence as an actress but turned it down to continue to fight and help Angel. Cordy knew what she was doing, Buffy at the time hadn't even graduated High School. There was a whole other world waiting for her, or at least that is what Angel believed. Cordy had had the chance to experience both and then decide Buffy hadn't and really would never had if Angel hadn't pushed it.

2. The curse, one the main reasons for Angel's departure. Why was he not worried about it with Cordy? Honestly i think it's because Angel didn't believe he would achieve perfect happiness with Cordy. Sure he loved her, but you only have one soulmate and she was in Sunnydale. His soul would have benn safe if they ever did get around to Kumshukking.
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Man! Poor Cordy!

I just can't believe that if things between Cordy and Angel had been given a chance to develop, she wouldn't even have had a chance of making him perfectly happy. I just don't buy the idea that we all have our one perfect love and then -- poof! It's over and your one chance is gone. All future loves are doomed to mediocrity. I don't think that's fair to Cordy. She was cool! She could have made him happy!
 
palabravampiress said:
Man! Poor Cordy!

I just can't believe that if things between Cordy and Angel had been given a chance to develop, she wouldn't even have had a chance of making him perfectly happy. I just don't buy the idea that we all have our one perfect love and then -- poof! It's over and your one chance is gone. All future loves are doomed to mediocrity. I don't think that's fair to Cordy. She was cool! She could have made him happy!
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Yes, I agree to that. I don't buy such things either.
Can't say much about Cordy, yet to see full Angel series, but it is unfair.

As for living Buffy, he did make right choice. There just were no future for them, and she's young girl, a human being with her needs she would be struggling to resist with age...
It would have hurt them more if he stayed.

Just mature kind of act..

Sure it was extremely painful and sad.

(Am I turning into Spuffy? (I was Bangel before, but Spike went more appealing to me gradually.. Sorry, Bangel folks, by being Willara or Tillow I'm trying to keep neutrality).
 
Very well argued Pala; i'd give you karma but you're apparenty the last person i gave it too. Nice analogy to the GH character earlier.

I don't think you can blame Joyce for Angel's departure. I think joyce was just the icing on the cake - Since he came back from hell Angel had been thinking about what he was, why he was back and what he could do with himself. He's looking for personal purpose beyond helping Buffy. The Mayor gives them a few home truths and Joyce really just confirms what he's already thinking.
 
palabravampiress said:
Man! Poor Cordy!

I just can't believe that if things between Cordy and Angel had been given a chance to develop, she wouldn't even have had a chance of making him perfectly happy. I just don't buy the idea that we all have our one perfect love and then -- poof! It's over and your one chance is gone. All future loves are doomed to mediocrity. I don't think that's fair to Cordy. She was cool! She could have made him happy!
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Hey I adore Cordy! she rocks on countless levels! but perfect happiness? thats about as elusive as elusiveness can get. To find it once is a miracle. Twice? I don't think so. There is no doubt in my mind that Angel loved her greatly and she made him very happy but what he had with Buffy is a one shot deal in my book.
 
Angel made the right choice and not only that, he was scared that the curse would break again even if they didn't have Kumshuk, he dreamt of their wedding and Buffy burnt, so yeah he is gonna make a choice even if her mother said things to him.

As for them talking about it, it would of achieved nothing, but Angel going over the same conclusion, and Buffy really didn't see his view because she was in love with him, and wanted to see reasons why they should of stayed together.
Maybe Angel was being selfish, not asking her opinion, and not talking it over, but I can't see his not wanting to take the risk of his curse reversing again so ending it being selfish.

As for Cordy well he got to take a diff approach to relationships later on learning to be happy but not 100%, as Wes put it you can be 99.9% happy and
not have that 1% thus being able to take that something and make the most of it, even if it isn't the full wack.
Before he assciated sex with the curse thing and stayed away from any form of relationship, being paronoid about it.
 
Angel's vision said:
Angel made the right choice and not only that, he was scared that the curse would break again even if they didn't have Kumshuk, he dreamt of their wedding and Buffy burnt, so yeah he is gonna make a choice even if her mother said things to him.
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I know this is slightly off topic, but who else loves that the Buffyverse gave us a new word for "have sex?" I mean, we've needed a suitable verb for soooo long. I, for one, am glad we now have it in "kamshuck." I think I'm actually going to start using it in non-Buffyverse related sentences. lol.
 
Kean
Kean
personally I love it! nd really i don't think you would even have to explain it once you used it right!
A
Angel's vision
*laughs* I was trying to put it descretly, and this word pops out!
I don't think Angel would ever have found true happiness after Buffy (yes, that sounds like a very Bangel thing to say) but he knew what would happen to him if he ever took that final step with someone and I don't just mean with sex either. There would guilt that he was being selfish and fear of what would happen if he let his guard down. Having those two feelings would never let Angel have a moment of true happiness.

I think the Mayor had a major part to play in his leaving, not just Joyce. The Mayor just seemed to drive home the fact that Angel and Buffy's relationship was not going to end happily ever after. I always wanted Buffy to find out that Joyce had spoken to Angel about him leaving. I know we had to wait till season 7 before Buffy found out that Willow hadn't encouraged Buffy to kill Angel in season 2, but there was no revelation about what Joyce had said.
 
N
Nabila
I was waiting for the Joyce revelation too because it was a big deal
Not if he had treated her like an adult and worked on making decisions together. As I said in my previous post, they had options. He just didn't even allow for a dialogue to take place. He didn't even want to discuss those options. That's my main problem with it. He wanted to make the decision he thought was best and have that be that. I think that if he had treated her like an equal and given her equal say in the decision making process, she would have been unable to remain emotionally stunted.
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I don't think that Angel was really capable of treating her like an adult. If you look back on their history together, he always had this tendency to treat her as a child who required his protection or guidance. I think that he maintained his original view of her - as a fifteen year-old sucking on a lollipop - even after their last encounter in "Chosen". I remember during a Season 5 episode of ANGEL, in which he had dreams of her as that seventeen or eighteen year-old preparing for the prom, instead of the twenty-two year-old young adult he had last seen before Sunnydale's destruction.

I also suspect that Angel was meant to represent a part of Buffy's adolescent . . . someone she would have eventually had to bypass or get over in order to develop into an adult.
 
A
Angel's vision
Good view piont,but he never dreamt of her in that way, he dreampt of her and Spike in his bed and that's the only "app" of Buffy ex the flash back before Spike appears
Well aside from me being an avowed polyamorist and thus finding it hard to stomach the thought of "only one true love per life"...

Doesn't "Awakening" in Angel S4 make it quite clear that Angel would be able to find perfect happiness with Cordy? I mean, perhaps I'm getting this wrong, but the way I see it, the only thing this Chinese mojo did was providing Angel with an absolutely lifelike illusion, nothing else... so, if in that dream scene kumshukking Cordy at the end of a great day fulfills the "wow I'm so happy I'll turn into a ravenous monster"-clause, why on earth should it be any different if it had really happened??
 
I feel that Angel made the right choice, and it's a choice that Buffy eventually came to accept as the right choice as well. And he's not alone on this, Joyce sees it as the right choice, as does Willow who says "I think he's right, I mean I hoped for the best" and it's also something the Mayor came to realise in 'Choices.' Buffy eventually admits to Willow, "He's right, in the long run, I think he's right." And then in the Ats episode 'I Will Remember You' basically recites the problems in their relationship down in the sewer, this time not being talked at but reciprocating and acknowledging the problems to Angel as well.

I'm not sure it would have done any good to talk to Buffy about it in 'The Prom.' Obviously Joyce, despite the fact she acknowledges that sometimes she even forgets how young Buffy still was, doesn't believe Buffy can make those hard choices. And Buffy showed that she couldn't either. Deep down she knew he was right, after further reflection on it later she comes to such a conclusion and at the end of 'Choices' she's kidding herself when she says "we'll be okay." You see both Buffy and Angel knowing the truth as they gaze into the night in that episode, not saying anything, but being unable to fool themselves.

It was hard enough for them to break up, it needed to be sudden and swift and not talked about, one of them needed to act or they weren't going to do it.

I think Angel made the right decision to leave, it was ultimately the most selfless and heartbreaking decision for him. Here was a man who had no faith in humanity or himself and as soon as he saw Buffy he was inspired to become somebody, "somebody to be counted on." That's huge, and shows how much he cares for her. Joyce says it as well, his actions here determined just how much he did care for her, and letting her go gave her the opportunity to live life at the fullest. I don't think he was particularly wrong in the things he was stating either, even if at the time she tried to deny it. She says she doesn't want children, but in "˜Bad Eggs' you can see the disappointment on her face when he tells her as a vampire he's unable to have any, and she says she doesn't care about the sex, and yet with Riley in "˜Where the Wild Things Are' they were so wrapped up in the sex they unleashed a sexually charged supernatural force into the frat house.

I also believe Angel's dream in "˜The Prom' reflected so amazingly well, what Buffy would be feeling if she'd had stayed with Angel. He feels what she feels, he saw what she would see. Everything is perfect during their vowels, they're in love. But slowly the ominous music begins as they're walking towards the door, and as they get outside they're separated by the light and the dark, one goes where the other cannot follow. Angel seeing Buffy burn up is a reflection of what Buffy could see in Angel, and in that moment he understood it wasn't fair to her. It had nothing to do about him, it was all about to do with her.

It's horrible it's tragic, they were in love and probably always will be, but he made the right call. It's just another tragedy of Angel's circumstances, he's ultimately just a very tragic character. I feel for him and respect him for the decisions he made, in particular this one.
 
palabravampiress
palabravampiress
Wow. Well-argued.
Bangelxx said:
What did you think about Angel deciding to leave in "The Prom"?? Me? I have a LOT of complex opinions!: erm :

I was very upset that he was leaving and at the time I hated that he chose that moment to leave!::huh1::

I knew that he had to go because it was the 'right thing to do" much as i didn't want to admit it! If angel stayed- he would make it harder for buffy and himself!

Last thing- if angel had never left- thered be no "Angel" TV show!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So....whats YOUR opinion???
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I just re-watched this episode, and I just have to comment on how incredibly sad this episode is. I think it's pretty amazing that even after seeing it so many times I still cry in that scene when Angel breaks up with her...

That look Buff has on her face when she see's Angel at the prom? Man...

I have not read this entire thread, so forgive me for possibly some repetition.

I think he made the right choice.

Although, I'm sure about his reasoning. Angel circa S3 seems very impressionable. He breaks up with Buffy not because it's what he wants, because its what The Mayor and Joyce want.

But in reality, he is right. And Buffy knows it (Even Willow agrees). They could never have a normal relationship. Ever. They have the forbidden love, you know? They don't fit in eachothers lives.

Poor Bangel 🙂
 
Of course I'm happy he left. How farther away from Buffy, how better 😀. And now we have two series who rock! And if he stayed, Spuffy might have not existed... There are so much bad things that could have happened. It was just one of his most intelligent choices.
 
It's kinda hard thinking about if Angel did the right thing or not, knowing that it was probably mainly done because Joss wanted Angel to have his own show.

I do get that Buffy needed her own life, to get some distance and that the no-happiness-rule was tearing both of them up, but I don't know...

I still see them together, far of in the future (although I think Buffy deserves better, but my reasons for hating Angel is another thread entirely) when Buffy's done baking.
 
Ultimately I believe he did because they could never be together the way they would want to be. But of course I didn't want him to leave Buffy because I love them together but I'd rather them end it like that than have them on & off, on & off throughout the whole show like alot of other TV shows do.
 
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