Did Angel Really Fail In His Mission?

[Old Master 3.0]

Angel sought redemption...that much we all know.

Because of all his heinous crimes as Angelus, he owed humanity an unpayable debt. He sought to save as many souls as he could, maybe even saving his own in the whole process. People needed him....and he did his job. That was what was important.

To me, by going on his little suicide mission in the end, Angel turned his back on everyone and everything he was supposed to fight for.
He practically brought Hell down on himself...knowing he wouldn't survive, and left all the innocent people on Earth including his own son to die in the subsequent war, or survive to deal with the consequences of his actions. Did Angel die a hero? I dunno....to me, he just got himself and his crew killed....and left the people minus their champions.




~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

 

[BuffyElevated]

I think he failed the moment he let Wolfram and Hart seduce him into taking over their offices.

 

[Jodast]

I don't think he failed. I think it was an impossible redemption to begin with. The things he did for over a hundred years as Angeuls could never be undone and no ammount of pennance could possibly make up for it. The best he could hope for was to have good intentions. The only way he could possiby come close to making up for what he has done in the past is to die whilst saving the world thereby having the best of intentions and paying the ultimate price. In that sense, since he apparently didn't die, it could be viewed as having failed but he was in a no win situation from the beginning.

 

[Taake]

I don't think he failed, I think he gave up on the concept of redemption for a brief moment, knowing that there were other heroes out there to take his place. A broken man if you will, in a bad situation, took a desperate path because he wanted to make his last stand count.

Honestly, I think he had realized that there wasn't really a 'redemption' at the end of the road. I mean, whatever he did/does it'll never really make up for all those lives he had taken.

So no I don't think he failed. I think the road to redemption is a rocky path and sometimes the choices we make sucks and then we just have to deal with the consequences of it.

 

[brinkster130]

I never thought he failed. His mission and path to redemption was never going to end with a happily ever after and nothing he did would ever truly atone for his past. The fact that he stood up and took responsibility for his sins, tried to make the world a safer place, and made an effort to be a better man makes his mission somewhat of a success in my eyes.



As far as the events in s5, the way I see it, Angel had come to the conclusion that he was never going to succeed in defeating all the evil in the world and that he was basically fighting a losing war. He decided to make one last move that he knew would significantly hurt W&H. I think Angel and his whole team knew that at some point the fight would lead them to a situation like this. They went out fighting for something they believed in.

 

[white avenger]

I don't see Angel failing his mission as much as just picking a mission with a totally unrealistic, unattainable goal, then understandably stumbling along the way, most notably when he spent his ill fated night with Darla, which resulted in Connor, his, by his own admission, nearly pointless attack on the Circle Of The Black Thorn in Season 5, and, worst of all, the whole Twilight affair of Buffy's Season 8 comic books.

Angel is like the guy cursed to push the huge boulder uphill. Inevitably, exhaustion or distraction results in him losing his grip, whereupon the boulder rolls back down the hill, and he has to start all over again. Commendably, he sincerely wants to attain his goal and make amends for all his past sins. Unfortunately, the goal that he has picked, because of its magnitude, becomes less and less attainable every time that he stumbles and has to start over.

At the rate that he is going, he may be so far behind by Fray's time that the only choice left open to him will be to transform himself into a 4 armed monkey and hang around the Watchers' library.

 

[Angel's vision]

He was bringing the inevitable forward, as well as what WA said,sans Twilight affair which I don't concider ever worthy of being cannon. Just a concept or fanwank the Angelverse writers wanted to explore. Angel has come too far to be that stupid ? It would dishonor Cordy's memory. The powers that be screwed him big time, so he was manipulated into being ambiguous in finding who the circle of the black thorn were. So yeah he failed thanks to them.

 

[Robb Stark]

Here's the thing: Angel's mission was never about "failing" or "winning". I think he even says that at some point. Redemption was obviously a big part of that, but he knew perfectly well that no matter what or how much he did, it was never going erase what Angelus had done.

And yet, despite that, he still does it. I think that makes him an incredible hero. Remember when he talks about how "if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do"? I think that sums up what Angel and his mission are really all about. He was fighting the good fight. It didn't really matter whether he "won" or not. That was never the point.

The final scene with Wolfram & Hart bringing the house down...I think that was one (or several) giant metaphor. W&H was meant to represent that evil is always going to endure, but despite that, it's still worth fighting. That entire last scene in the alley, the "Let's go to work" line, that was a symbol that the battles are never going to stop coming, that there is always going to be another fight. Metaphor and message wise, I couldn't have felt any better about the finale of Angel.

I thought it worked in the story too. I don't think that Angel had any clue that Wolfram & Hart would bring the entire city into Hell though. I think he thought that they were coming after him and his team. Not saying he didn't screw up, because clearly his actions had some pretty big unintended consequences, but I don't think that transforming L.A. into hell was his goal.

 

[white avenger]

I thought it worked in the story too. I don't think that Angel had any clue that Wolfram & Hart would bring the entire city into Hell though. I think he thought that they were coming after him and his team. Not saying he didn't screw up, because clearly his actions had some pretty big unintended consequences, but I don't think that transforming L.A. into hell was his goal.

I might be wrong, it's been awhile since I watched that last season, but I was thinking that Angel DID know that W&H's plan was to eventually drag LA, or maybe the whole world, down into hell, and that his plan to strike first by eliminating the Circle Of The Black Thorn was, by his own admission, only a slap in the Senior Partners' faces, little more than a futile, probably suicidal gesture meant only to show them that he wasn't their, or anyone else's puppet or lackey. As i said, though, it's been awhile since I re-watched the entire season, so I may be remembering something from fan fiction or another series altogether.

 

[janas]

I do not think Angel has failed in his mission. At last he was free, this is the message of NFA, be free to act for deciding what is worth fighting for. The renunciation of Shanshu is an extreme and painful act of claiming his freedom. The Shanshu is not a reward, it is a burden, is a curse, and him, renouncing the reward, has shown that they do not possess him. The fight never ends and the only reward, is on how we can be free. Inside.

Angel did not turn his back on everything and everyone and not leave all the innocent people on earth including his own son to die. The scene at college with Connor is very beautiful. Angel helps her son to write a curriculum vitae, which symbolizes the future. For the first time, both Angel whom Connor, leave their past behind them and work actively to rewrite together their future.

The final scene with the walls of the W & H collapsing, is highly symbolic. Angel, with his son beside, shows that nothing is indestructible or eternal. Evil can be fought and that's what makes it men so extraordinary. Maybe they're not there to be beat. Maybe they're there to be fought. Maybe fighting them is what makes human beings so remarkably strong.

The presence of Connor is not random, he symbolizes the human side of Angel, his Shanshu. Connor symbolizes also the future of the new generations, if he survives, Angel has not fought in vain.

Angel: Go home, now!
Connor: They'll destroy you.
Angel: As long as I know you're okay, they can't. Go!

 

[Robb Stark]

I might be wrong, it's been awhile since I watched that last season, but I was thinking that Angel DID know that W&H's plan was to eventually drag LA, or maybe the whole world, down into hell, and that his plan to strike first by eliminating the Circle Of The Black Thorn was, by his own admission, only a slap in the Senior Partners' faces, little more than a futile, probably suicidal gesture meant only to show them that he wasn't their, or anyone else's puppet or lackey. As i said, though, it's been awhile since I re-watched the entire season, so I may be remembering something from fan fiction or another series altogether.

No, he didn't know (or at least, not to my recollection). He finds out at some point (I can't really remember when or where) that Wolfram & Hart's "final apocalypse" isn't this huge, massive event. It's this slow burn of making the world worse and worse, day by day. Plus, I think Angel had reached his breaking point in working for him (now you want to talk about screwing up? That was a pretty huge mistake, working for them in the first place). He warns Spike, Wes and the rest that the Senior Partners are going to "bring the house down" on them, and that he didn't believe any of them would survive it. But I don't recall him ever mentioning them planning to destroy all of L.A.

Assuming he did know, that would be massively inconsistent with the character. I mean, Angel never sacrificed innocents, well, ever that I can think of, but certainly not as a cost of war. That wouldn't make much sense at all for him to be aware that they would destroy the city.

 

[dexeded]

It was impossible for Angel to succeed in redemption, so would it be possible for him to fail? Myself, I think his NFA actions were just ridiculous. The entire theme of Angel was to keep on fighting a battle that could not be won, and they decided to have some big showdown as the finale. I know, he said "Let's get to work", which does imply something every day, something continuing, but the events do not follow that theme. He left thousands of innocents in LA to die or be tortured as the Senior Partners loosed hell on the city.

 

[ladydorotea]

He left thousands of innocents in LA to die or be tortured as the Senior Partners loosed hell on the city.

What do you mean 'left'? 😕 He did not leave those thousands - the remaining members of A.I. went to battle against that overpowering army of demons and a dragon exactly because they did not cave in and left LA to W&H. So Angel and Co went out in the midst of a continuing battle - which was exactly the purpose of Angel's mission all along - to keep on fighting does not matter what.

And Angel redemption was never to be a final watershed event - like you pass this test and you are 'in'. It was supposed to be a burden , and never ending Sisyphus task - but everything of value is this way. Is this big news?

 

[dexeded]

What do you mean 'left'? 😕 He did not leave those thousands - the remaining members of A.I. went to battle against that overpowering army of demons and a dragon exactly because they did not cave in and left LA to W&H. So Angel and Co went out in the midst of a continuing battle - which was exactly the purpose of Angel's mission all along - to keep on fighting does not matter what.

And Angel redemption was never to be a final watershed event - like you pass this test and you are 'in'. It was supposed to be a burden , and never ending Sisyphus task - but everything of value is this way. Is this big news?

I know his redemption was a never ending battle; that was why I was pissed at what he did in NFA. When I say 'left', I don't mean he skipped town. I suppose I should have phrased it better. I meant that with his blow against the Circle of the Black Thorn, killing each of its members, he brought the Senior Partners' wrath down on LA, thus causing many innocents to die. The final battle was, in essence, a suicide mission, which defeats the purpose of his Sisyphus task in the first place.

 

[ladydorotea]

I meant that with his blow against the Circle of the Black Thorn, killing each of its members, he brought the Senior Partners' wrath down on LA, thus causing many innocents to die. The final battle was, in essence, a suicide mission, which defeats the purpose of his Sisyphus task in the first place.

Jeez, this ought to be the weirdest interpretation of the S5 outcome ever. Blink. Why are you assuming that Angel knew in advance that SP's would pull LA into Hell if he brought down the Circle ? And if he wanted to commit glorious suicide and bring the Circle down at the price of thousands of lives - why stopping Illyria from destroying half of the West Coast continental shelf two or three episodes earlier - in the Time Bomb episode ? Why refuse to save Fred at the price of thousands of lives in A Hole in the World ?

Moreover - was not it implied that the Circle was prepping for something big - and that's why the Powers wanted it out of the game ? Finally, nobody really died - if you read the AtF finale. But the W&H office got kicked out of LA - and that was Joss plan for S6 of AtS, so it was not a gimmick.

 

[Robb Stark]

Jeez, this ought to be the weirdest interpretation of the S5 outcome ever. Blink. Why are you assuming that Angel knew in advance that SP's would pull LA into Hell if he brought down the Circle ? And if he wanted to commit glorious suicide and bring the Circle down at the price of thousands of lives - why stopping Illyria from destroying half of the West Coast continental shelf two or three episodes earlier - in the Time Bomb episode ? Why refuse to save Fred at the price of thousands of lives in A Hole in the World ?

Moreover - was not it implied that the Circle was prepping for something big - and that's why the Powers wanted it out of the game ? Finally, nobody really died - if you read the AtF finale. But the W&H office got kicked out of LA - and that was Joss plan for S6 of AtS, so it was not a gimmick.

This was pretty much what I was trying to say earlier. I never really understood why people assumed that Angel knew that the Senior Partners were planning to throw L.A. into hell. I mean, that wouldn't be anything near what we've seen from Angel for eight full seasons. During After the Fall, he goes through a pretty heavy guilt trip, which to me would mean that he didn't know the ultimate consequences of his actions in S5.

 

[dexeded]

Jeez, this ought to be the weirdest interpretation of the S5 outcome ever. Blink. Why are you assuming that Angel knew in advance that SP's would pull LA into Hell if he brought down the Circle ? And if he wanted to commit glorious suicide and bring the Circle down at the price of thousands of lives - why stopping Illyria from destroying half of the West Coast continental shelf two or three episodes earlier - in the Time Bomb episode ? Why refuse to save Fred at the price of thousands of lives in A Hole in the World ?

Moreover - was not it implied that the Circle was prepping for something big - and that's why the Powers wanted it out of the game ? Finally, nobody really died - if you read the AtF finale. But the W&H office got kicked out of LA - and that was Joss plan for S6 of AtS, so it was not a gimmick.

Well, this is what Angel says in NFA: "If we do any damage at all, the senior partners are gonna rain hell on us." So yeah, he knew his actions would have mucho repercussions if they succeeded.

The cases of Illyria and Fred are entirely unrelated as parallels to the 'big battle without thinking of consequences' case. Angel wouldn't be doing good by letting Illyria destroy West Coast, nor by sacrificing thousands of lives for Fred. But in NFA, Angel did the whole final stand for a good cause, which defeats the 'fighting is everyday' theme.

 

[ladydorotea]

Well, this is what Angel says in NFA: "If we do any damage at all, the senior partners are gonna rain hell on us." So yeah, he knew his actions would have much repercussions if they succeeded.

It was 'rain Hell on us - not on 'this city and all these innocent people around us'. From Angel's experience W&H always goes after him and his associates (and that's why he asks everybody for their consent while assigning them each a Circle member), so it is no wonder he speaks of raining Hell - but why would he be literal not figurative? Of course his speech there is written for emotional impact - same as Gunn's 'let make them memorable' - when Illyria teases him with a few minutes to live left to him.

The cases of Illyria and Fred are entirely unrelated as parallels to the 'big battle without thinking of consequences' case. Angel wouldn't be doing good by letting Illyria destroy West Coast, nor by sacrificing thousands of lives for Fred.

Angel would achieve the same goal - the West coast would be obliterated in milliseconds without anybody being the wiser - and the Circle will be gone with it. Sacrificing thousands of lives for Fred would disrupt the latest W&H gamble of bringing Illyria back into this world.

But in NFA, Angel did the whole final stand for a good cause, which defeats the 'fighting is everyday' theme.

And that good cause was supposedly preventing the Circle from springing another Apocalypse on the world here and now. How is that defeating 'fighting is everyday' theme ? Letting the W&H have their way with the city would have been 'not defeatist' ?

 

[dexeded]

It was 'rain Hell on us - not on 'this city and all these innocent people around us'. From Angel's experience W&H always goes after him and his associates (and that's why he asks everybody for their consent while assigning them each a Circle member), so it is no wonder he speaks of raining Hell - but why would he be literal not figurative? Of course his speech there is written for emotional impact - same as Gunn's 'let make them memorable' - when Illyria teases him with a few minutes to live left to him.

Ok, so he didn't know it would rain down on LA. But that still doesn't change my point that it was a 'final blaze of glory' deal, not 'keep on fighting'. Quote:

ANGEL
We're in a machine. The Black Thorn runs it. We can bring their gears to a grinding halt, even if it's just for a moment.

SPIKE
About time we got our hands dirty.

ANGEL
This isn't a keep-fightin'- the-good-fight kind of deal. Let's be clear. I'm talking about killing every... single...member... of the Black Thorn. We don't walk away from that.

LORNE
Do we crawl away, at least?

ANGEL
We do this, the senior partners will rain their full wrath. They'll make an example of us. I'm talking full-on hell, not the basic fire-and-brimstone kind we're used to.

GUNN
We know the drill.

ANGEL
No, you don't. 10-to-1, we're gone when the smoke clears. They will do everything in their power to destroy us. So...I need you to be sure. Power endures. We can't bring down the senior partners, but for one bright, shining moment, we can show them that they don't own us.

Angel would achieve the same goal - the West coast would be obliterated in milliseconds without anybody being the wiser - and the Circle will be gone with it. Sacrificing thousands of lives for Fred would disrupt the latest W&H gamble of bringing Illyria back into this world.

Yes, but NFA battle plan is different because it's actually a final battle, for the greater good situation. My interpretation of Angel isn't as extreme as the scenarios you suggest. There is a difference.

And that good cause was supposedly preventing the Circle from springing another Apocalypse on the world here and now. How is that defeating 'fighting is everyday' theme ? Letting the W&H have their way with the city would have been 'not defeatist' ?

When did they say/hint that the Circle's planned Apocalypse was imminent?

 

[ladydorotea]

When did they say/hint that the Circle's planned Apocalypse was imminent?

When did they say/hint that W&H would pull the whole city into Hell? When was it hinted that the thing that returned inside Cordy's head would summon beast that would try to switch off the sun and plow the whole of LA into darkness ? This is Joss fantasy universe and it has its rules - as well the rules of the genre. Everything is always a surprise, because the audience needs to be kept in suspense. Because of it, I am positive that if Angel decided to ignore the PtB's vision of the Circle - the Apocalypse would have been imminent - if only because W&H got the idea that he is finally 'tamed' and they can get their way with him, his friends and loved ones, and the city/world he is protecting.