Did Angel Really Kill His Son?

nerd4hire

nerd4hire

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Here's one I've been wondering about.

In Home Angel kills "a" Connor. That much seems undeniable. Which Connor was it? Was it the one that matters, or does just the alternate reality Connor matter, or did they both matter? Was it the right thing to do? Did it make Wesley right for trying to abduct baby Connor, even though the prophecy was a fake? It was a fake, wasn't it? Does the original reality continue to exist after Cyvus Vail creates an alternate?

Here's the scene so you know exactly what I'm talking about.

"The hostages leave. Connor stands up and goes to attack Angel again. They fight with fists and kicks. Connor throws Angel across the room, then starts walking toward Cordelia"”the only remaining hostage. Angel sees this and smashes a display case containing hunting knives. He takes a knife and hurls it across the room, landing it in Connor's thigh before he reaches Cordelia. Connor falls to the ground, still trying to crawl to her. Angel pulls the knife out of Connor's leg, pulls Connor off of her, and pushes his back to the ground.

ANGEL
(hovering over Connor, holding the knife) I really do love you, Connor.

CONNOR
(low) So what are you gonna do about it?

ANGEL
Prove it.

Angel sweeps down his knife hand and swipes the blade across Connor's throat."
 
nerd4hire said:
CONNOR
(low) So what are you gonna do about it?

ANGEL
Prove it.

Angel sweeps down his knife hand and swipes the blade across Connor's throat."[/i]
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I can't answer your question because I need to see that scene again before I can speculate on what happened. I have class during the Angel rerun time on TNT so I haven't seen any Angel for a while. I don't recall the episode this came from showing the knife actually cut Connor. Does any one have it on tape?

Interesting question by the way nerd4hire.
 
Wait... Angel killed Connor? What season was this? I don't remember this...

[Edit]
Oh, that was season 4 finale... I missed that episode.
[/Edit]
 
So I guess what's required here is a theory. Here's one from Drogyn House.

OK first of all what followed the throat slice was not a memory erase. Angel chose a different reality. We know this because in Origin in Season 5 Wesley calls it a reality shift. The choice was available from the Senior Partners through Cyvus Vail

So what are the rules of transfering realities. We know them from when Cordelia transfered realities with Skip in Birthday.

* The reality is interchangeable. Cordelia goes to one, then goes back to the other which has continued without her. This suggests both realities are real and continue independently of each other, therefore even though a person may leave one to go to the other, and providing the person is a moral being, he must treat either reality by whatever rules of personal conduct he chooses for himself, because they are both real.

In Home, Angel will be leaving a reality where his son is about to kill himself, Cordelia, and a number of innocents. Angel can't allow that to happen. He has to kill Connor to stop him from exploding the bomb and killing innocent people (Cordelia at least, and possibly others). He can't just talk him down. He believes it's too late.

After that though he chooses to live in another reality where Connor has a chance at a decent life.

Angel remembers everything from both realities, just as Cordelia did at the end of Birthday.

Cordelia did not remember everything from both realities at first. The memories were returned to her.

One therefore has to conclude Angel also chose to remember, because he made the deal. This is why they needed Cyvus Vail. If you'll recall he was described as, "Specialized in memory restructuring, mind control, and temporal shifts."

So you see Angel killed Connor, and only he lives with the guilt, until Wesley breaks the Orlon Window, and releases the knowledge of the two realities to himself Connor and Illyria.

--------------
 
nerd4hire said:
Here's one I've been wondering about.

In Home Angel kills "a" Connor. That much seems undeniable. Which Connor was it? Was it the one that matters, or does just the alternate reality Connor matter, or did they both matter? Was it the right thing to do? Did it make Wesley right for trying to abduct baby Connor, even though the prophecy was a fake? It was a fake, wasn't it? Does the original reality continue to exist after Cyvus Vail creates an alternate?

Here's the scene so you know exactly what I'm talking about.

"The hostages leave. Connor stands up and goes to attack Angel again. They fight with fists and kicks. Connor throws Angel across the room, then starts walking toward Cordelia"”the only remaining hostage. Angel sees this and smashes a display case containing hunting knives. He takes a knife and hurls it across the room, landing it in Connor's thigh before he reaches Cordelia. Connor falls to the ground, still trying to crawl to her. Angel pulls the knife out of Connor's leg, pulls Connor off of her, and pushes his back to the ground.

ANGEL
(hovering over Connor, holding the knife) I really do love you, Connor.

CONNOR
(low) So what are you gonna do about it?

ANGEL
Prove it.

Angel sweeps down his knife hand and swipes the blade across Connor's throat."
Click to expand...

I followed season five pretty closely, so I think I can answer this pretty thoroughly:
* Angel swiped the blade acorss Connor's throat yeah, but he can't have actually killed him, at least not in a permanent way (blood loss from a neck wound doesn't have to be fatal if you slash just right and if you get treatment really fast).

Reasoning: The reason I say he can't have actually killed him is the demon from s5 that was hired by W&H (name of Cyvus Vail) first says he built Connor, but later dialogue reveals that this was a figurative statement. Vail drastically reconstructed Connor's memory, but the flesh-and-blood Connor was the same kid that was previously a raging psychopath.

So there aren't two Connors. There's not a real one and a fake one. They're both real. Although the second Connor is based on false memories, the second version eventually gets the memories of the first Connor back, but the memories are buffered now because the new version of Connor has had a life (or has the memories of having had a life) of a happy young, well-adjusted kid. (in other words, he's still living in a fantasy world 😉 ).

But without that fantasy he couldn't live. This is a recurring theme both in that episode and in the latter half of season five--that sometimes we construct happy lies to protect ourselves from dark, unsettling truths.

A link to a transcript of the relavant episode.

A bit more:
Vail didn't exactly create an alternate world so much as augment the existing world. The difference between the two concepts is immense.
(too tired to type clearly, must end now 🙂 )
 
Just want to throw in here that Tim Minear, who wrote and directed Home, mentions that Angel does indeed kill Connor in his commentary.
 
Wes said:
Just want to throw in here that Tim Minear, who wrote and directed Home, mentions that Angel does indeed kill Connor in his commentary.
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Hey, another DemonHunter, cool. 🙂

Ok, well I guess since it comes from him, we can't really ignore it. I still stand by the opinion that he can't have stayed dead for too very long or else a lot of the things that happen later make much less sense. (to me at least)
 
I just watched this episode today and I was totally confused. I have seen every episode from the past four seasons in order, and I am certain that the prophecy turned out to be fake, so why is everybody on every website going on about the prophecy being fulfilled? There wasn't one to fulfill. ???
 
Just because the prophecy turned out to be false, that doesn't mean it can't happen anyway. And if it does happen, then, if we want, we can say that it was fulfilled--even if it was false.
 
WyrdDemonHunter said:
Just because the prophecy turned out to be false, that doesn't mean it can't happen anyway. And if it does happen, then, if we want, we can say that it was fulfilled--even if it was false.
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Yeah that makes sense. To confuse things more though, there's actually 2 prophecies.

As I recall the first comes from that thing Wesley gets a hold of after Lilah steals the Nyazian scrolls. We learn Sahjhan faked that one in Forgiving:

Fred: "So, what are you lying about?"

Sahjhan: "Oh, well, I don't like to brag, but - read any good prophecies lately?"

Gunn: "You wrote the prophecies."

Shajhan: "More a re-write."

Fred: "The father will kill the son."

Sahjhan: "Yeah. I flitted back and forth in time. Changed the one that threatened me, polished some others. Flitted in a *manly* way - just so we're clear. (To Angel) You're not really my enemy. Your in my home and I'm gonna kick your ass, but you where never the point."

Angel: "It was Connor."

Sahjhan: "Boy! Can't put one over on you, can you? Oh, wait - already did. It's pretty freaky the first time you see your name in a true prophecy all carved in blood on an official scroll. "The one sired by the vampire with a soul will grow to manhood and kill Sahjhan." Me!"

Fred: "So you planted false prophecies, that Angel would kill his son, and Wesley believed them."
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The second prophecy comes from that hamburger thing Wesley goes to visit in Loyalty - the Loa.

You have to use a little poetic license, but you can kind of force it to foretell Angel killing his son in Home. The Loa says 3 pertinent things.

Loa: "It can not *be* stopped."
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Loa: "That the vampire will devour his child is certain. The dark question *you* harbor is only 'when.'"
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and

Loa: "The first portent will shake the earth. The second will burn the air. The last will turn the sky to blood."
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I don't know. That's kind of forcing things, but yeah...what Wyrd Demon Hunter said.

Also, if Season 5 Connor has the same body as the Connor from Home, where's the scar on his neck? Super-healing powers maybe, but I don't know. Doesn't alternative Buffy have a permanent scar in the Wish? Doesn't Spike have one?
 
I never really thought that angel killed connor for me it looks like the same moment he swipes the knife to kill connor reality is changes... So I think he didnt really kill him.
 
Hmm...

Okay. Theory time.

I agree with nerd4hire about the shift in realities. But I don't buy the "two Connors" thing. I basically agree with n4h on eveything he said. Almost.

I don't think Angel killed Connor. I think what caused the shift in realities was Angel's intent - Angel had full intent to kill Connor. Connor was going to kill Cordelia and a bunch of innocents. So, yea he was going to kill Connor - but all the reality shift needed was his intent to do so, and that's the guilt Angel is wracked with - that he was going to kill his own son.

So, same Connor. 'Real' Connor not dead. THE END.
 
Reality was altered!!! Yes, Conor was killed by Angel in Home. And yet there he is, the same Conor, alive at the end. There aren't two different realities, the one reality was changed!

nerd4hire said:
Also, if Season 5 Connor has the same body as the Connor from Home, where's the scar on his neck? Super-healing powers maybe, but I don't know. Doesn't alternative Buffy have a permanent scar in the Wish? Doesn't Spike have one?
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Well, for one thing we're not dealing with an alternative reality here, just a modification of reality. Anyanka obviously created a completely different reality in The Wish because the alternate Willow is actually able to cross into the normal reality in Dopplegangland. It looks as if what Vail did was more construct new memories for people thinking that their lives had followed certain paths when they actually hadn't. Obviously some surface physical things must have to have been changed as well, but it was a permanent change in reality. It's not a big jump to think that Conor's body was physically restored to a non-gapping-neck-wound state by Vail or one of the other sorccerors who worked on the case.
 
And you base this on what?

I enjoy a good theory, but a good one has support.

Not trying to be nasty here, just pushing for support for the one reality altered theory, and questioning why it would be the one, true, and only possible thing any reasonable thinking Angel fan could ever possibly accept, even over the "Reality Shift" Wesley suggests it was.

Why is this altered reality different from the one in Birthday where we have 2 separate realities performing parallel to each other?

Where is the support for either theory that makes it the only acceptable possibility?
 
Mesektet Ra said:
Hmm...

Okay. Theory time.

I agree with nerd4hire about the shift in realities. But I don't buy the "two Connors" thing. I basically agree with n4h on eveything he said. Almost.

I don't think Angel killed Connor. I think what caused the shift in realities was Angel's intent - Angel had full intent to kill Connor. Connor was going to kill Cordelia and a bunch of innocents. So, yea he was going to kill Connor - but all the reality shift needed was his intent to do so, and that's the guilt Angel is wracked with - that he was going to kill his own son.

So, same Connor. 'Real' Connor not dead. THE END.
Click to expand...

I agree with that, he also said:I really do love you son...
Conner: proove it...
Angel takes the knife and looking away thrusts it into Conner...
White flash...
Cut to...Angel walking towards his friends back at w&h...
The fact that Angel looks away prooves that he couldn't look at what he was about to do=Guilt..(mixed with love and pain)
the stabbing i reckon was a condition as part of the spell (memory alteraton/reality change)to alter Conners memories and every one elses..
 
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