Did Angel Seduce Buffy?

thetopher

thetopher

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So this is linked to another question about Angel's character that I have problems with, the fact that Angel somehow 'seduced' Buffy (whether manipulatively, consciously, or maybe even subconsciously) into falling for his ye olde vampire appeal.
I never, in any way, understood this reasoning.

So- convince me. If he did do it then how? Specific examples would be nice of this intentional seduction.
 
The only thing Angel was 'guilty' of was being an idiot to listen to a talking Dog at the beginning of this mess of a story arc.

That and basically betraying Buffy by doing what he did. Being responsible for the deaths hundreds of Slayers and men on the field and pushing Buffy to the brink emotionally.
 
No, Angel didn't seduce Buffy, at least, not intentionally. He was, however, presented as the epitome of the Harlequin Books hero, the dark, handsome stranger with the mysterious past and the tortured soul, helping in the fight against evil to in some small way atone for the crimes and atrocities that he committed in the past.

No, Angel didn't seduce Buffy, but the writers sure as heck did.
 
Smile Time said:
Especially when he approaches Buffy for the first time in "The Harvest", his body language there was that of a creepy stalker 😛
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I did notice that Angel's tack completely changes after 'The Harvest', gone is the cocky, confident guy and suddenly he's all broody. I get that the writers were still figuring his character out, but even so the 'in-verse' explanation of Angel's change is something that could be explored, and its the only evidence I see of Angel behaving oddly.
 
white avenger said:
He was, however, presented as the epitome of the Harlequin Books hero, the dark, handsome stranger with the mysterious past and the tortured soul, helping in the fight against evil to in some small way atone for the crimes and atrocities that he committed in the past.
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I quoted that because I don't want to be repetitive.

Angel said he fell in love with Buffy at first sight. When he arrived in Sunnydale, instead of present himself properly - "I'm a vampire, I was cursed with a soul, I want to help", he went for the "handsome stranger with the mysterious past", appearing from nowhere, giving Buffy presents, being all gentleman.

Aside the fact that he was very handsome, if Buffy knew he was a vampire, it would make it difficult for her to even consider him as boyfriend material. When she found out what he was, it was too late, she was in love with him already. So, Angel seduced her - subconsciously, if you want. But he loved her and he would have stayed with her, if the curse thing hadn't happened.

white avenger said:
No, Angel didn't seduce Buffy, but the writers sure as heck did.
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Well, they used a metaphor, and most people didn't get it... like, for me, "being a vampire" equals "being married" - if a woman knows that a guy is married, she won't even think to have a thing with him; the same woman who discovers the man is married after she is in love with him, will not break up because is too late.
 
bespangeled
bespangeled
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thetopher said:
I did notice that Angel's tack completely changes after 'The Harvest', gone is the cocky, confident guy and suddenly he's all broody. I get that the writers were still figuring his character out, but even so the 'in-verse' explanation of Angel's change is something that could be explored, and its the only evidence I see of Angel behaving oddly.
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And all that was before they even decided how cool it would be to make him a vampire.
 
gite63 said:
Angel said he fell in love with Buffy at first sight. When he arrived in Sunnydale, instead of present himself properly - "I'm a vampire, I was cursed with a soul, I want to help", he went for the "handsome stranger with the mysterious past", appearing from nowhere, giving Buffy presents, being all gentleman.

Aside the fact that he was very handsome, if Buffy knew he was a vampire, it would make it difficult for her to even consider him as boyfriend material. When she found out what he was, it was too late, she was in love with him already. So, Angel seduced her - subconsciously, if you want. But he loved her and he would have stayed with her, if the curse thing hadn't happened.
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You make a couple of massive assumptions about Angel's way of thinking- that its calculated to be as appealing to Buffy as possible. The other, more likely, explanation given what we know of Angel is shame.
Shame about what he is and what he has done.

Angel, who has been feeding on rats for the past thirty years because he's terrified of repeating his drinking off a dying man in the 70's. So I get that his first reaction isn't to tell Buffy the vampire slayer that he's a vampire- he doesn't know her, maybe she kills him before he can explain the complexities of the curse. He's cautious, even mysterious, because of shame- nothing else.

Also you seem to be suggesting that Angel's thinking should've gone something like this 'Hmn, well Buffy''s beautiful and everything and that could be a problem. I better tell her I'm a vampire in case she falls in love with me and we get into a relationship.' Man, it would take a massive ego to even think that. 😛

Angel is clueless when it comes to 'Buffy as high school girl' and what she may or may not like in a guy/boy (see the 'why is Angel so awkward/clueless with women' thread), he is there to help the slayer as best he can- mainly with info and occasionally helping her out of a jam (like the Three).

I don't think, knowing or unknowingly, he was there to seduce Buffy- he's barely around in S1 and takes pains to avoid her when she finds out the truth about him. In S2 it gets a bit more complicated because obviously things escalate between them.
 
thetopher said:
Also you seem to be suggesting that Angel's thinking should've gone something like this 'Hmn, well Buffy''s beautiful and everything and that could be a problem. I better tell her I'm a vampire in case she falls in love with me and we get into a relationship.'
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No, he wasn't thinking that - Angel was someone on the path to redemption, he was good and wanted to do good - but on the other hand, he didn't introduce himself as a vampire, a big part of what he was. It's a matter of perception (I don't know if I'm using the right word here); as people said on other thread: when Buffy was sleeping with Spike, Xander saw Spike naked in bed, doing something suspicious, with a invisible Buffy missing. He didn't think of the possibility that Buffy was there with Spike – because sleeping with a vampire was something unthinkable. Buffy knowing Angel was a vampire, would have created an immediate psychological barrier between the two. Not that she couldn't fall in love with him, eventually, but she would be more guarded. 
thetopher said:
I don't think, knowing or unknowingly, he was there to seduce Buffy-
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He was not there to seduce Buffy. This things, even in real life, aren't math – unless a person is a jerk like Parker (and I wonder why they did the nice-guy-who turns-evil-the-next-morning again) and does certain moves to get to a certain point. 
thetopher said:
So I get that his first reaction isn't to tell Buffy the vampire slayer that he's a vampire- he doesn't know her, maybe she kills him before he can explain the complexities of the curse.
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Well, this would have happened if he had jumped on her on a dark alley and said "I'm a vampire but I have a s-" There were other ways to do it.

The thing is that Joss wanted use Angel and Buffy as a metaphor, so he wrote it accordingly, IMO. It doesn't mean that Angel didn't love Buffy - he was not the bad boyfriend of the metaphor. 
thetopher said:
Angel is clueless when it comes to 'Buffy as high school girl' and what she may or may not like in a guy/boy (see the 'why is Angel so awkward/clueless with women' thread)
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Well, he is clueless, all right, but subconsciously he did things that were very appealing to a young woman - or an old one, for that matter.
 
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Poor Angel. He's got to be the most retconned character in this verse (even before Spike). It's funny people mention Angel misrepresenting himself in the pilot and not telling Buffy he was a vampire. How on earth could he if it was decided after the pilot that he is a vampire? He literally couldn't have misrepresented himself since he wasn't a vampire in the pilot (kind of proven when he stands in freaking direct sunlight).

Just like 'I haven't fed on a living human since that day.' gets retconned when Minear decided Darla is Angel's twu wuv. Just like 'perfect happiness' clause gets retconned into 'sex' clause. Just like the Becoming flashbacks got retconned from 'I fell in empathy' to 'love at first sight'.

Geez poor guy.
 
I don't buy the "he subconsciously seduced her" thing. Seduction to me is a conscious thing- deliberately setting out to entice someone.
If you're not consciously doing that, but someone finds you attractive anyway... I'm really not sure why their attraction should be blamed on you.
 
I think the problem I've faced when debating this issue, is that Angel being older, more sexually experienced and of course a man, is automatically taken as a 'perpetrator'. Now, legally, on could argue that he is, but it doesn't necessarily mean that his intentions were nefarious. It also completely denies Buffy agency in the relationship as well. Could we not argue that Buffy seduced Angel?

However, as I said in my Bangel thread, it's important that we don't overlook the problem of teenage girls getting involved with older men. Both physically and emotionally, teenagers are changing and the adult in that relationship needs to understand this.
 
Gotta admit that s1 Angel can be creepy. A 200+yo vamp that falls in love with a highschool girl at first sight, than fallows her around. Goes up to her and lies about his identity. Angel might have not meant for Buffy to fall in love with him, but he did lie about who he was, and he did trick Buffy into thinking he was something that he wasn't. Angel didn't mean to seduce Buffy, but I'm sure Buffy did feel seduced by this big mysterious dark brooding guy. I wouldn't say Angel is at fault for that, and perhaps seducing is the wrong word, but I do find there is something inherently wrong with the way the relationship was built. (don't get me wrong, I like Bangel just fine, but the idea of a 200yo vamp dating a 16yo girl just doesn't sit too well with me, and it has nothing to do with Angel and Buffy, just as a concept I have some issues with it).
 
Blaze said:
Gotta admit that s1 Angel can be creepy. A 200+yo vamp that falls in love with a high school girl at first sight, than fallows her around. Goes up to her and lies about his identity. Angel might have not meant for Buffy to fall in love with him, but he did lie about who he was, and he did trick Buffy into thinking he was something that he wasn't. Angel didn't mean to seduce Buffy, but I'm sure Buffy did feel seduced by this big mysterious dark brooding guy. I wouldn't say Angel is at fault for that, and perhaps seducing is the wrong word, but I do find there is something inherently wrong with the way the relationship was built. (don't get me wrong, I like Bangel just fine, but the idea of a 200yo vamp dating a 16yo girl just doesn't sit too well with me, and it has nothing to do with Angel and Buffy, just as a concept I have some issues with it).
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Call it intentional or unconscious seduction, or just plain natural attraction, I think that Angel, as a mature man, should have been able to recognize the fact that a mature man simply has no business entering into a romantic, let alone sexual, relationship with a 16 or 17 year old girl, and "falling in love the first time that (he) laid eyes on her," is no excuse whatsoever. The fact that he was a vampire certainly makes matters worse, but even if Angel was exactly what he appeared to be, a normal man, 25 to 30 years old, it would still be wrong.
 
bespangeled
bespangeled
even more this - as his attraction grew he just gave into it
white avenger said:
Call it intentional or unconscious seduction, or just plain natural attraction, I think that Angel, as a mature man, should have been able to recognize the fact that a mature man simply has no business entering into a romantic, let alone sexual, relationship with a 16 or 17 year old girl, and "falling in love the first time that (he) laid eyes on her," is no excuse whatsoever. The fact that he was a vampire certainly makes matters worse, but even if Angel was exactly what he appeared to be, a normal man, 25 to 30 years old, it would still be wrong.
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Exactly. I don't believe Angel wanted to seduce Buffy or anything, or that he meant any wrong. In both Buffy and Angel's cases, it was more a love at first sight thing. So you could even say the seduction was on both sides. The only thing that really factors in and makes it an issue coming from Angel is the age difference. Even if Buffy actively tried to seduce him (as I'm sure she did as some point, every one kind of does when you're interested in someone), it's Angel who should have realized the age difference (and the vamp/slayer thingy) wasn't appropriate.
 
Yeah, I mean, lying to get laid is basically seduction, right? Look, If Angel's plan was to just help Buffy or whatever he would have told her the truth about what he was the moment he met her, at least as soon as possible. You know why he didn't? Kept lying for half of a season? 'Cause he wanted to #@$!!! the hot, teenage piece of ass that is Buffy since he laid his eyes on her.
 
thetopher said:
But of course Angel didn't fall in love with a 16/17 year old girl, he fell in love with the slayer. Big difference imo.
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I personally don't see the difference. Slayer or not, whether she was more mature or not for her age, Buffy was still a teenager. Again, I'm sure Angel didn't mean to fall in love with her, and it's obvious that he didn't factor in her age. But in some aspects of Buffy's life, especially when speaking about the "normal" aspects like dating, Buffy had the same mentality as a teenager, as shown with the relationship. She might have been matured, but the way she acted with Angel in s1 and s2 (before Angelus), screams teenager to me. It's only in s3 that we see a more mature side of Buffy. Regardless if Angel fell in love with the slayer, he still fell in love with a 16yo girl.

thetopher said:
The consensus seems to be 'no, he didn't but the age/vamp thing squicks me', which I get. 😉
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I guess to me, both are not exactly exclusive, which is why I brought the age thing up. Again, not too sure if seducing is the right word. Surely a young girl could fall in love with an older man without any seducing. But when a relationship takes place, there usually is some sort of seducing going one. Not necessarily in a bad way, but I'm sure there was at least some flirting going on there.
 
Blaze said:
I personally don't see the difference. Slayer or not, whether she was more mature or not for her age, Buffy was still a teenager.
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But not just a teenager- she fights for her life every single night and for some reason she's not allowed to make other decisions about what she does with that life? I don't see the logic to that.
If Angel started dating Willow or Cordelia? Yeah, that would've been totally weird and a bit creepy at that point.

And as I remember in Season 2 its Buffy that keeps on pushing and Angel that keeps on resisting (and failing)- from 'Reptile Boy' onward its clear that he thinks that their closeness is unwise and that it should stop.
He's definitely conflicted right up until 'Lie To Me/What's My Line' (where he accepts his own feelings for Buffy) so I think on some level he was aware that it may have been not the best relationship idea.
 
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