Did Angel Seduce Buffy?

[EVIL UU]

Teenagers are teenagers not just because they lack life experience but also because their brains are still growing up. Buffy's lifestyle can't change that. Now, obviously Buffy is a slayer, she has the whole demon thing going on for her but that's another discussion entirely.

 

[VisionBoy]

I think whether they should have been together is a different question to whether he seduced her into being attracted to him.
Plenty of teens are attracted to adults, it certainly doesn't mean the adult seduced them. If they engage in a relationship however, that's obviously another matter. But as far as initial attraction goes, I don't see 'seduction' as what started things here.
Not saying that makes the relationship any less right/wrong (as I said, I think that's another question), I just don't see that as how Buffy became attracted, personally.

 

[Blaze]

But not just a teenager- she fights for her life every single night and for some reason she's not allowed to make other decisions about what she does with that life? I don't see the logic to that.
If Angel started dating Willow or Cordelia? Yeah, that would've been totally weird and a bit creepy at that point.

Of course she's not just a teenager, but in many aspect she still is a teenager. I'm not saying she can't make decisions about what she does with her life, but when it comes to dating, the older party should still know what dating a teenager means. Sure, Buffy risks her life every night, she's seen more violence and death than any adult has. But that doesn't mean she doesn't retain some of her innocence when it comes to relationships and sex, as is clearly shown in s2. After she sleeps with Angel, she still reacts like a teenage girl that has been deceived, not like the slayer. I'm not saying that the situation isn't different cause Buffy is the slayer, I'm saying that in some aspect, even with the kind of life Buffy leads, she still has some qualities of a teenager. That's why the audience can still relate to her. A child soldier is still a child, even if they are forced to grow quickly.

Again, it's not that I disagree with the relationship, I can understand why it happened, I can even agree with it considering Buffy might die at any point. But in the end, with Angel being older, he did somewhat seduce her, even if only by encouraging the relationship.

And as I remember in Season 2 its Buffy that keeps on pushing and Angel that keeps on resisting (and failing)- from 'Reptile Boy' onward its clear that he thinks that their closeness is unwise and that it should stop.
He's definitely conflicted right up until 'Lie To Me/What's My Line' (where he accepts his own feelings for Buffy) so I think on some level he was aware that it may have been not the best relationship idea.

That I agree with, again Buffy did plenty of seducing herself. If anything, she pushed more for the relationship than Angel ever did. It's a two way street.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I don't see evidence of seduction involved. To me, that's a strong word and not to be confused with flirting or something even less tangible, as in Angel's case in S1.

But Angel of course found her appealing from first sight, so that attraction to Buffy was always part of the equation and something that has to be considered a factor when analyzing Angel's interaction with Buffy early on. Whether we like it or not, our attraction to another person, despite our best intentions, will always be an element involved in how we engage with them; it will always be a factor, it just will. But like I said, I don't see any evidence of actual seduction in Angel's case, and I take the word seduction seriously, because it is a stronger term than 'flirting' or other words, and it implies much more. Angel was attracted to Buffy and he behaved differently to her and around her than he would have if the slayer was a woman he was not attracted to, but that's as much as I think could be said about it.

 

[Blaze]

I don't see evidence of seduction involved. To me, that's a strong word and not to be confused with flirting or something even less tangible, as in Angel's case in S1.

But Angel of course found her appealing from first sight, so that attraction to Buffy was always part of the equation and something that has to be considered a factor when analyzing Angel's interaction with Buffy early on. Whether we like it or not, our attraction to another person, despite our best intentions, will always be an element involved in how we engage with them; it will always be a factor, it just will. But like I said, I don't see any evidence of actual seduction in Angel's case, and I take the word seduction seriously, because it is a stronger term than 'flirting' or other words, and it implies much more. Angel was attracted to Buffy and he behaved differently to her and around her than he would have if the slayer was a woman he was not attracted to, but that's as much as I think could be said about it.

Interesting. I guess the answer to whether Angel seduced Buffy depends on your definition of seduction. I don't really see seducing someone as a bad thing, to me flirting is pretty much the same as seducing, as in you're using your charm to get with someone, or you're trying to please someone. Of course, the word can have a bad connotation in the case of deceiving the person into liking you, but that's not always the case.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

@Blaze
I think the two words are different. I think of luring or enticing when I think of seduction, and sometimes/oftentimes in a dishonest fashion...or at least not in a completely honest way. I do think of the word more in terms of the classical definition of it, especially 19th century use. I think of flirting as more honest and open. You like someone, so you smile, maybe compliment their eyes, etc. but it's all on the table to be seen. People who 'seduce', by my understanding of the word, are more underhanded. They aren't using the open, upfront, and completely honest approach. They are trying to lure the other person in without them realizing it, because if they did realize it they might not go along with it. That's the classical understanding of the word seduce anyway. I think it is meaningful to insist on a distinction between flirting and seducing here now in the 21st century still.

watching X-files Blaze? lol just thought I'd slide that in there.

 

[white avenger]

I don't think that anyone here would argue that Anya, being a hundreds of years of year old vengeance demon, plus an apparently adult woman before becoming a demon, would be as fully mature as any character on the show. Yet, in the scene where she tries to buy beer at the Bronze, none of that maturity and experience counted for anything, because she had a teenager's body, and was, therefore, a teenager. The same thing goes for Buffy. No matter how mature she might be emotionally, no matter how experienced she might be in killing vampires and demons, no matter how much responsibility might come with being the Slayer, she is still a teenager in Season 2.

 

[bespangeled]

@Blaze
I think the two words are different. I think of luring or enticing when I think of seduction, and sometimes/oftentimes in a dishonest fashion...or at least not in a completely honest way. I do think of the word more in terms of the classical definition of it, especially 19th century use. I think of flirting as more honest and open. You like someone, so you smile, maybe compliment their eyes, etc. but it's all on the table to be seen. People who 'seduce', by my understanding of the word, are more underhanded. They aren't using the open, upfront, and completely honest approach. They are trying to lure the other person in without them realizing it, because if they did realize it they might not go along with it. That's the classical understanding of the word seduce anyway. I think it is meaningful to insist on a distinction between flirting and seducing here now in the 21st century still.

watching X-files Blaze? lol just thought I'd slide that in there.

Yes - trying to lure someone in without them realizing it...and seducing can also be luring someone without your conscious choice to do so. Vampires are seduction - Angel in particular lured his prey. It's natural for him to seduce. It requires no thought or plan. in fact, it would require a thought or a plan to not do what comes naturally. 

And all that was before they even decided how cool it would be to make him a vampire.

I thought he was always intended to be a vampire - if not then what the hell was going on when he met Buffy and gave her the cross?! 
Okay - Angel and women. I'm going to include all his incarnations quickly. As Liam he had no problem seducing tavern girls. Angelus used seduction as his way of directing victims toward the next step (the rose on Giles door). He managed Dru, Darla, and Spike quite well (seduction is not just for sex). Then the conscience/soul - and seeing Buffy and falling in love (I do prefer falling in empathy really). But when he meets Buffy he is cocky, arrogant and kinda memorable. He probably planned that meeting since he did go get the cross to give to Buffy - and he made very sure that he was both mysterious and memorable. So this isn't awkward stammery lousy with women guy - I think he came along after Angelus paid a visit. Once AtS was on, Angel became awkward with women but before... not so much.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Don't go down bespangeled's rabbit hole lol. You'll get lost!

Seriously though, I suppose that's a fair point (the first one) about vampires being natively seductive. That deserved to be said, but it should also be said that consistency in characterization of vampires on the show (s) was problematic, at least for me. Another topic for another time.

I sense you are mixing Angel with Angelus again (you referred to Angel as the seducer) so I won't follow you down that rabbit hole (at least not this time) and digress yet another thread about it. Unless you remember clear examples of Angel as Angel actually practicing seduction on Buffy, I side with most on this thread and the op that Angel didn't, not really. You're interpretation of the initial encounter is intriguing, but too much of it seems like it could be projection or assuming too much on too little. But like I've always said, lit - film - television studies assumes there is more than one interpretation of anything, and that there is no necessarily one correct view or interpretation. I do agree with that, for the most part. I don't know where that leaves us.

I could just as easily interpret Angel's confidence in the beginning (after recovering from his low before, dining on rats and feeling miserable about himself) as a front, as a carefully constructed image. In fact, I considered that possibility awhile back during a rewatch. But similarly, it suffers from a rather ambiguous tailoring and interpretation based on too little to go on, which is why I've never offered it on the boards in the past. I don't think I'd stand by that yet. In the absence of more tangible evidence, I'd rather say seduction, as I understand it, wasn't really at play.

You say he made sure he was "mysterious and memorable" in his initial encounter with Buffy. Can you say more about this? That quality of mysteriousness is pervasive with his character throughout both shows, long after Buffy was out of the picture. I mean, i dont see anything that special or different about that scene than many of his encounters and behavior in both shows afterwards. Furthermore, Is that the evidence for seduction? Where else is seduction illustrated the rest of the season? 
And taking a step back or two, Angel liked buffy. It's natural to desire to give off a good first impression, a "memorable" one, as you said. Is that alone seduction? If so, I'm as guilty of that as Angel or anyone else. And I really wouldn't sit well with the title of seducer, let me tell you.

 

[bespangeled]

Don't go down bespangeled's rabbit hole lol. You'll get lost!

Seriously though, I suppose that's a fair point (the first one) about vampires being natively seductive. That deserved to be said, but it should also be said that consistency in characterization of vampires on the show (s) was problematic, at least for me. Another topic for another time.

I sense you are mixing Angel with Angelus again (you referred to Angel as the seducer) so I won't follow you down that rabbit hole (at least not this time) and digress yet another thread about it. Unless you remember clear examples of Angel as Angel actually practicing seduction on Buffy, I side with most on this thread and the op that Angel didn't, not really. You're interpretation of the initial encounter is intriguing, but too much of it seems like it could be projection or assuming too much on too little. But like I've always said, lit - film - television studies assumes there is more than one interpretation of anything, and that there is no necessarily one correct view or interpretation. I do agree with that, for the most part. I don't know where that leaves us.

I could just as easily interpret Angel's confidence in the beginning (after recovering from his low before, dining on rats and feeling miserable about himself) as a front, as a carefully constructed image. In fact, I considered that possibility awhile back during a rewatch. But similarly, it suffers from a rather ambiguous tailoring and interpretation based on too little to go on, which is why I've never offered it on the boards in the past. I don't think I'd stand by that yet. In the absence of more tangible evidence, I'd rather say seduction, as I understand it, wasn't really at play.

You say he made sure he was "mysterious and memorable" in his initial encounter with Buffy. Can you say more about this? That quality of mysteriousness is pervasive with his character throughout both shows, long after Buffy was out of the picture. I mean, i dont see anything that special or different about that scene than many of his encounters and behavior in both shows afterwards. Furthermore, Is that the evidence for seduction? Where else is seduction illustrated the rest of the season? 
And taking a step back or two, Angel liked buffy. It's natural to desire to give off a good first impression, a "memorable" one, as you said. Is that alone seduction? If so, I'm as guilty of that as Angel or anyone else. And I really wouldn't sit well with the title of seducer, let me tell you.

Come frolic with me, hookah smoking caterpillar!

First off - Liam is Angelus is Angel - what you were before informs what you become. So if we have to imagine Angel popped out fully formed without drawing on any of his long history then I guess anything goes. Everyone else is finding reasons in his past that would make him awkward - guilt, shame and poor self esteem. So if that's all relevant there, then why isn't 200+ years of all sorts of seduction relevant to being always unconsciously seductive.

As for the made sure part - Angel didn't just happen to run into Buffy. He arranged the meeting and he made sure he appeared as he wanted to. I'm not saying he wanted into Buffy's panties, I am saying he wanted her to remember the meeting so he dressed and acted in a certain way. The very fact that he was showing up as the mysterious ally who drops by to give information - or a nice leather jacket that suits you so well - but not giving anything personal away is what makes him mysterious and memorable.

And no, I am not saying Angelus wanted to seduce Buffy. Liam was a weak man. Angelus seduced his victims. Angel handed out his leather better-than-a-jock-jacket just because....why? He truly thought that Buffy was too cold in the CA climate and had no jackets of her own? Or he wanted to make a certain impression. And can we please remember that there was more than a hundred years of moping - there were all the years of hanging out in Vegas, and being a good pal to the Rat Pack - the Elvis wedding, and all the other high life. Angel was in no way about redemption until he met Buffy.

Let me add this - seduce has 4 definitions here

verb (used with object), seduced, seducing.
1.
to lead astray, as from duty, rectitude, or the like; corrupt.
2.
to persuade or induce to have sexual intercourse.
3.
to lead or draw away, as from principles, faith, or allegiance:
He was seduced by the prospect of gain.
4.
to win over; attract; entice:
a supermarket seducing customers with special sales.

I am using the last definition of seduce - to win over, attract, entice. There is no intent to lead astray, corrupt or draw away from principles. There is intent to attract and entice.

 

[gite63]

I personally don't see the difference. Slayer or not, whether she was more mature or not for her age, Buffy was still a teenager.

So imature concerning love, that she was an easy prey for Parker.

 

[KatPratt]

I don't think Angel seduced Buffy. I think he had feelings for her right away but I really don't think he knew what he was supposed to do with them. I mean Angel may have been nearly 250 or so but the only relationship he had ever had was Darla and that was all kinds of screwed up. In a lot of ways he was just as inexperienced in actual relationships as Buffy herself was. There is also the fact that when Angel was growing up in the 1700s 16 or 17 would have been considered and adult, in fact they didn't even really treat children like children the way we do in modern times so that also might have changed his perspective of her.
That being said, I do understand why people don't like the age difference, I can't really make up my mind about myself.

Come frolic with me, hookah smoking caterpillar!

First off - Liam is Angelus is Angel - what you were before informs what you become. So if we have to imagine Angel popped out fully formed without drawing on any of his long history then I guess anything goes. Everyone else is finding reasons in his past that would make him awkward - guilt, shame and poor self esteem. So if that's all relevant there, then why isn't 200+ years of all sorts of seduction relevant to being always unconsciously seductive.

As for the made sure part - Angel didn't just happen to run into Buffy. He arranged the meeting and he made sure he appeared as he wanted to. I'm not saying he wanted into Buffy's panties, I am saying he wanted her to remember the meeting so he dressed and acted in a certain way. The very fact that he was showing up as the mysterious ally who drops by to give information - or a nice leather jacket that suits you so well - but not giving anything personal away is what makes him mysterious and memorable.

And no, I am not saying Angelus wanted to seduce Buffy. Liam was a weak man. Angelus seduced his victims. Angel handed out his leather better-than-a-jock-jacket just because....why? He truly thought that Buffy was too cold in the CA climate and had no jackets of her own? Or he wanted to make a certain impression. And can we please remember that there was more than a hundred years of moping - there were all the years of hanging out in Vegas, and being a good pal to the Rat Pack - the Elvis wedding, and all the other high life. Angel was in no way about redemption until he met Buffy.

Let me add this - seduce has 4 definitions here

verb (used with object), seduced, seducing.
1.
to lead astray, as from duty, rectitude, or the like; corrupt.
2.
to persuade or induce to have sexual intercourse.
3.
to lead or draw away, as from principles, faith, or allegiance:
He was seduced by the prospect of gain.
4.
to win over; attract; entice:
a supermarket seducing customers with special sales.

I am using the last definition of seduce - to win over, attract, entice. There is no intent to lead astray, corrupt or draw away from principles. There is intent to attract and entice.

I agree with some of this, except the part about the jacket, I know I'm nitpicking but it's because I really like that scene and really do think he was being real when he gave her the jacket. I always thought it was a sweet scene because TV people don't pay attention to what the climate their characters are in unless it has to do with the story some how, i.e. Christmas, heatwave, some sort of storm. An example that comes to my head, is as the end of season three after Faith poisoned Angel and Buffy went to fight her. She goes to Faith apartment in a leather jacket and leather pants, in what is supposed to be the middle or end of May in southern California, and Faith also was wearing a leather jacket. Neither got heat stroke but they looked great for the fight scene.
I think the writers used this scene to show that Angel could be kind, as well as cryptic, but the scene at the end of the episode where he tells her to keep it, yeah that I could interpret as being flirty/seductive. But the scene where he actually gives her the jacket, I think was real.

 

[white avenger]

If we're going to bring up yet another vampire's leather jacket, has anyone besides me noticed that Angel is a relatively large man, whereas Buffy is definitely a small girl. How is it that Angel's coat fit her so well? At the very least, the sleeves should have been 5 or 6 inches too long, but the coat fit her like it had been made for her. Was Angel wearing some sort of magic coat?

 

[bespangeled]

I don't think Angel seduced Buffy. I think he had feelings for her right away but I really don't think he knew what he was supposed to do with them. I mean Angel may have been nearly 250 or so but the only relationship he had ever had was Darla and that was all kinds of screwed up. In a lot of ways he was just as inexperienced in actual relationships as Buffy herself was. There is also the fact that when Angel was growing up in the 1700s 16 or 17 would have been considered and adult, in fact they didn't even really treat children like children the way we do in modern times so that also might have changed his perspective of her.
That being said, I do understand why people don't like the age difference, I can't really make up my mind about myself.


I agree with some of this, except the part about the jacket, I know I'm nitpicking but it's because I really like that scene and really do think he was being real when he gave her the jacket. I always thought it was a sweet scene because TV people don't pay attention to what the climate their characters are in unless it has to do with the story some how, i.e. Christmas, heatwave, some sort of storm. An example that comes to my head, is as the end of season three after Faith poisoned Angel and Buffy went to fight her. She goes to Faith apartment in a leather jacket and leather pants, in what is supposed to be the middle or end of May in southern California, and Faith also was wearing a leather jacket. Neither got heat stroke but they looked great for the fight scene.
I think the writers used this scene to show that Angel could be kind, as well as cryptic, but the scene at the end of the episode where he tells her to keep it, yeah that I could interpret as being flirty/seductive. But the scene where he actually gives her the jacket, I think was real.

Angel had all sorts of sex - not sure if he had ever had any romantic relationship. He and Darla were not in love, and they were normal demons. And since he arrived year by year, not in a time machine, I think it was easier to slowly accept changes in how society saw all sorts of things. Hell, every female in Sunnydale wore less than what the whores wore when Liam was young. But he did have a good part of a century during which he spent a great deal of time with the Rat Pack and Elvis. I don't think that Angel went without sex for a century - he just never had perfect happiness. I would say he had all sorts of experience with women, including sex but not love. Buffy was his first real love in the most human sense of the world.

 

[gite63]

I really like that scene and really do think he was being real when he gave her the jacket. I always thought it was a sweet scene because TV people don't pay attention to what the climate their characters are in unless it has to do with the story some how, i.e. Christmas, heatwave, some sort of storm.

Sweet. That's what the writers went for, and it worked... one more piece of the "handsome, mysterious, gentleman" man... 

Buffy was his first real love in the most human sense of the world.

And he knew how to get to her. He knew what he had to do - and what he certainly shouldn't do, like tell her he was a vampire or try to talk to Giles the Watcher first.

 

[Firstina]

I think telling a Vampire Slayer that you are a vampire isn't exactly the greatest pick-up strategy to seduce a girl.

 

[bespangeled]

I think telling a Vampire Slayer that you are a vampire isn't exactly the greatest pick-up strategy to seduce a girl.

Yeah, which is probably why he didn't until he vamped out in her bedroom. 😀

 

[jom]

No, Angel did not seduced Buffy. Angel when he was human, he was a womanizer but after becoming a vampire and getting his soul back, he became too tortured and didnt go back to his fun ways. But i would say this, Angel is the guy that gets everything without oppening his mouth or doing anything for it, Spike is really jealous about this cus he has to work for everything.

 

[bespangeled]

No, Angel did not seduced Buffy. Angel when he was human, he was a womanizer but after becoming a vampire and getting his soul back, he became too tortured and didnt go back to his fun ways. But i would say this, Angel is the guy that gets everything without oppening his mouth or doing anything for it, Spike is really jealous about this cus he has to work for everything.

After Angel got his soul he was, at first, paralyzed with guilt. But as time went on he definitely had some fun, and he had money. He lived in Las Vegas, and palled around with the Rat Pack - Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis, Jr., Peter Lawford and Joey Bishop. Those were the biggest stars of the time. He also said he went to the wedding of Elvis and Priscilla Presley. It wasn't until 1977, after he drank from the dead guy that he went and lived in the gutter. Even in the 20's - the puppy rescue time - he may have stayed away from party girls but he was well dressed which means money and shopping. So no - no 100 years of paralyzing guilt - or rather guilt but not paralyzing. It wasn't until he met Whistler and saw Buffy that he found an outlet for his guilt, and started to look for redemption.

 

[VisionBoy]

"I think telling a Vampire Slayer that you are a vampire isn't exactly the greatest pick-up strategy to seduce a girl."

Or even the best way to avoid being dusted... seeing as vampire with a soul was a new concept.

Honestly I'm not sure why people think it's so strange that he didn't tell her at first. It's not like Buffy was in the business of taking advice or guidance from vamps back then... and as I said "vamp with a soul" was something new, at least to her (and Giles it seems) at that point.

Just look at the response when they do find out:

Buffy: (to Giles) Can a vampire ever be a good person?
Couldn't it happen?

Giles: A vampire isn't a person at all. (clears his throat) It may have
the movements, the, the memories, even the personality of the person
that it took over, but i-it's still a demon at the core, there is no
halfway.

-------------
Angel: I'm just an animal, right?

Buffy: You're not an animal. Animals I like.


Call me crazy, but if he wanted to help her without the risk of getting staked, I can totally see why he wouldn't tell her off the bat. Just think for a second if Kendra or Faith had been the current slayer... would you be rushing to tell either of them that you're a vampire? Soul or not.