Did Angel Seduce Buffy?

[bespangeled]

"I think telling a Vampire Slayer that you are a vampire isn't exactly the greatest pick-up strategy to seduce a girl."

Or even the best way to avoid being dusted... seeing as vampire with a soul was a new concept.

Honestly I'm not sure why people think it's so strange that he didn't tell her at first. It's not like Buffy was in the business of taking advice or guidance from vamps back then... and as I said "vamp with a soul" was something new, at least to her (and Giles it seems) at that point.
***

Call me crazy, but if he wanted to help her without the risk of getting staked, I can totally see why he wouldn't tell her off the bat. Just think for a second if Kendra or Faith had been the current slayer... would you be rushing to tell either of them that you're a vampire? Soul or not.

I agree. I can see why things happened as they did. But Angel, by the time he vamped out really wanted her to care about him and trust him - so it wasn't fear of getting staked by then. It was fear of scaring her away - which he did.

 

[white avenger]

when (Angel) was human, he was a womanizer but after becoming a vampire and getting his soul back, he became too tortured and didnt go back to his fun ways.

Liam/Angelus/Angel was womanizer, certainly, but I seriously doubt that he had ever actually been in love with anyone. That was the difference. Angel was Buffy's first lover, and Buffy was Angel's first beloved.

I honestly believe that virtually the same thing applied to William/Spike as well, what's more, quite possibly, his first, maybe even only, sexual experience of any kind was Dru. (Remember, Spike said that he was "all about the kill. That could be interpreted as meaning that he never cared for the rape/intimidation that Angelus apparently loved so much.

This might have been the theme song of both Angel and Spike before Buffy.

 

[jom]

I honestly believe that virtually the same thing applied to William/Spike as well, what's more, quite possibly, his first, maybe even only, sexual experience of any kind was Dru. (Remember, Spike said that he was "all about the kill. That could be interpreted as meaning that he never cared for the rape/intimidation that Angelus apparently loved so much.

Spike was in love and rejected when he was human. He was kind of a nerd that was made fun of because of his poems. He was actually a nice guy unlike angel. When he became a vampire was when he actually started having fun. He made a big mistake falling for crazy drusilla

 

[bespangeled]

And after Buffy the theme song was:

Once upon a lovely time
Many million dreams ago
Once there was a man in love, dear
Many million dreams ago

Once he thought he had a sweetheart
Then he broke the golden rule
Never take your love for granted
Wise men often play the fool

Now he'd like to say I'm sorry
Can't you see within his heart?
Without you there's no tomorrow
Why should true love have to part?

Take me in your arms
I promise to be true
Never again I'll stray
Away from you

Take me in your arms
I promise to be true
Never again I'll stray
Away from you


😀🙂😛😎🙄😀

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Id love to seduce buffy. All over.

 

[NightLady]

So this is linked to another question about Angel's character that I have problems with, the fact that Angel somehow 'seduced' Buffy (whether manipulatively, consciously, or maybe even subconsciously) into falling for his ye olde vampire appeal.
I never, in any way, understood this reasoning.

So- convince me. If he did do it then how? Specific examples would be nice of this intentional seduction.

He did. And what's worse he did it consciously and for selfish reasons that had nothing to do with loving Buffy or wanting to help her.

How he did it, you want to know? well, firstly he stalked Buffy to study his pray then he lied to her, hiding his true identity, then he acted all misterious to pique her interest and when he realised it wasn't working as much as he thought he showed off doing the knight-saving the-damsel-in-distress and then he lied again, tricking her to stay in her house all night and day with absolutely no reason and then he played the sorrow card to make her believe he was such a poor, lonely guy. Bleah.

so, quoting xander: "c'mon, wake up and smell the seduction. It's the oldest
trick in the book."

 

[white avenger]

Spike was in love and rejected when he was human. He was kind of a nerd that was made fun of because of his poems. He was actually a nice guy unlike angel. When he became a vampire was when he actually started having fun. He made a big mistake falling for crazy drusilla

"In love with and rejected by" isn't an actual relationship. It's just the desire to have one. Before Dru, I'm almost certain that William had never been in any sort of actual relationship with any girl. Dru was his first and probably only lover prior to Buffy. That was one of the, though certainly not the only, problems with what passed for Spuffy in Season 6. Spike had never been an actual, normal, human romantic relationship before, and Buffy had never been in a purely physical relationship before. Add that to a self destructive Slayer and a vampire who can't come into the light, so he tries to drag his lover into the darkness, stir in three or four totally disapproving friends, add a returning ex boyfriend for good measure, and disaster is inevitable.

 

[jom]

"In love with and rejected by" isn't an actual relationship. It's just the desire to have one. Before Dru, I'm almost certain that William had never been in any sort of actual relationship with any girl. Dru was his first and probably only lover prior to Buffy. That was one of the, though certainly not the only, problems with what passed for Spuffy in Season 6. Spike had never been an actual, normal, human romantic relationship before, and Buffy had never been in a purely physical relationship before. Add that to a self destructive Slayer and a vampire who can't come into the light, so he tries to drag his lover into the darkness, stir in three or four totally disapproving friends, add a returning ex boyfriend for good measure, and disaster is inevitable.

what were we discussing? i think i misinterpreted your post about william and angel having similar love experienced.
Angel was a womanizer, a party guy, when he was human, spike was not, but i think you were talking about their first real love experience.

 

[white avenger]

Angel was a womanizer, a party guy, when he was human, spike was not, but i think you were talking about their first real love experience.

Right. Liam had had sex, but he had never been in love. William was almost certainly a virgin when he was changed, and most likely, the closest thing to love that Spike ever had was Dru, who was certainly nuts, and probably more than a little bit warped in the personality department (a chaos demon, for crying out loud!) Neither Angel nor Spike had had any experience with actually having a relationship with someone who they were in love with, so the only thing that they could do was to try and be what Buffy seemed to want. Angel was Buffy's knight in shining armor with the dark, troubled past, just like the heroes in all of those Harlequin Romances she probably read. Spike was the destructive, abusive, dark force, drawing her into his forbidden, twisted world.Both men, with no previous experience to draw on, gave Buffy exactly what she asked for, not necessarily needed, at the time.

 

[NightLady]

I wonder why is everyone so sure that Liam never loved a woman and William never had sex... is it only because the first is shown whoring and the second being rejected?

 

[bespangeled]

I wonder why is everyone so sure that Liam never loved a woman and William never had sex... is it only because the first is shown whoring and the second being rejected?

Liam's father would have been too thrilled if Liam fell in love. And if William slept with anyone he would have followed them around reciting poetry, and married them, of course. I suspect he would marry a domestic and compose odes about her.

 

[NightLady]

Liam's father would have been too thrilled if Liam fell in love. And if William slept with anyone he would have followed them around reciting poetry, and married them, of course. I suspect he would marry a domestic and compose odes about her.

I think that Liam's father would have been happy if Liam married and settled down. Which he didn't of course, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he never loved someone. maybe he fell in love with a married woman, maybe his love wasn't reciprocated, maybe she wasn't worthy and hurt him. and this could explain his behavior with women.
About William, we don't really know if there wasn't someone else before Cecily who he wrote poetry to. Also I'm not very good in history so correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that at that time men used to go to prostitutes for sex so he could have had sex with someone without any feeling involved. I know these are only assumptions but seeing that it's nevere stated one thing or the other I'd say that each one of them is possible.

 

[gite63]

I think that Liam's father would have been happy if Liam married and settled down. Which he didn't of course, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he never loved someone.

About William, we don't really know if there wasn't someone else before Cecily who he wrote poetry to. Also I'm not very good in history so correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that at that time men used to go to prostitutes for sex

It's exactly my opinion - both men weren't teenagers when they were turned. Liam could have fallen in love once or twice, even with a prostitute - Game of Thrones's Tyrion Lannister did, to his father horror, for instance. William could have gone to prostitutes, for his first time, at least. 

Liam's father would have been too thrilled if Liam fell in love.

Not if the woman was a prostitute.

I suspect he would marry a domestic and compose odes about her.

Compose odes about her yes, but marry? I don't think so. Other times.

 

[Kana]

I wonder why is everyone so sure that Liam never loved a woman and William never had sex... is it only because the first is shown whoring and the second being rejected?

We don't know for sure, but Dru (being psychic) said that William had been a "starved one" implying that he had either few or no sexual or romantic experiences and Angel said that he hated the girls in his day, finding them dull and moronic and he said, prior to Buffy, he's never been in love before.

 

[bespangeled]

I think that Liam's father would have been happy if Liam married and settled down. Which he didn't of course, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he never loved someone. maybe he fell in love with a married woman, maybe his love wasn't reciprocated, maybe she wasn't worthy and hurt him. and this could explain his behavior with women.
About William, we don't really know if there wasn't someone else before Cecily who he wrote poetry to. Also I'm not very good in history so correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that at that time men used to go to prostitutes for sex so he could have had sex with someone without any feeling involved. I know these are only assumptions but seeing that it's nevere stated one thing or the other I'd say that each one of them is possible.

Prostitutes, whores, mistresses, servants who had to obey or get turned out on the street to starve, children -- this was the premiere time for fetishizing and using small children. But I really don't think William would have paid for sex. He's too much of a romantic in both senses of the word. 

It's exactly my opinion - both men weren't teenagers when they were turned. Liam could have fallen in love once or twice, even with a prostitute - Game of Thrones's Tyrion Lannister did, to his father horror, for instance. William could have gone to prostitutes, for his first time, at least. 


Not if the woman was a prostitute.



Compose odes about her yes, but marry? I don't think so. Other times.

Probably not - but I can see it as possible. Mostly if he was being played, though.

 

[NightLady]

We don't know for sure, but Dru (being psychic) said that William had been a "starved one" implying that he had either few or no sexual or romantic experiences and Angel said that he hated the girls in his day, finding them dull and moronic and he said, prior to Buffy, he's never been in love before.

Starved yes, but was she talking of sex or of love? because surely William looked like someone searching for love, not sex

I remember what Angel said, but in the flashbacks showing Liam's interactions with women (the servant, the girls in the pub, darla) he didn't look bored at all. Actually the contrary. What's more important is that (among other things) he also said that he had never killed a human being since the curse and we know for sure that it was a lie, so Angel really shouldn't be looked upon as a very reliable source of truth.

Prostitutes, whores, mistresses, servants who had to obey or get turned out on the street to starve, children -- this was the premiere time for fetishizing and using small children. But I really don't think William would have paid for sex. He's too much of a romantic in both senses of the word. 

yes, but maybe you are considering things from a modern point of view? because Victorian society was different from ours so Victorian's romantics had to be different from modern ones. I don't know how much of this is true, because I read it in some novel lol but I believe that paying for sex at the time was very normal. Fathers proudly brought their young sons to brothels to initiate them to the pleasure of sex, married men went to prostitutes or had mistresses to fulfill needs their wives couldn't take care of, respectable women waited the first night of marriage to have sex so unmarried men had to turn to low-class girls or to prostitutes for sex. There was a sharp distinction between love and sex so I don't think that paying for sex would have been considered 'not romantic' from the point of view of a Victorian man, because it simply had nothing to do with love.

Probably not - but I can see it as possible. Mostly if he was being played, though.

I don't know... It would have been very disappointing for William's mother and I don't see him deliberately hurting her. Anyway that's one thing we know for sure it never happened because William definitely wasn't married and never had been 😛

 

[bespangeled]

Starved yes, but was she talking of sex or of love? because surely William looked like someone searching for love, not sex

I remember what Angel said, but in the flashbacks showing Liam's interactions with women (the servant, the girls in the pub, darla) he didn't look bored at all. Actually the contrary. What's more important is that (among other things) he also said that he had never killed a human being since the curse and we know for sure that it was a lie, so Angel really shouldn't be looked upon as a very reliable source of truth.

Yeah, there was Lawson, and the people in the hotel (though that was passive - could have saved = kill?) I don't recall anyone else until Ats.

yes, but maybe you are considering things from a modern point of view? because Victorian society was different from ours so Victorian's romantics had to be different from modern ones. I don't know how much of this is true, because I read it in some novel lol but I believe that paying for sex at the time was very normal. Fathers proudly brought their young sons to brothels to initiate them to the pleasure of sex, married men went to prostitutes or had mistresses to fulfill needs their wives couldn't take care of, respectable women waited the first night of marriage to have sex so unmarried men had to turn to low-class girls or to prostitutes for sex. There was a sharp distinction between love and sex so I don't think that paying for sex would have been considered 'not romantic' from the point of view of a Victorian man, because it simply had nothing to do with love.

Romantic meant huge, overwhelming - it was an attitude. It was a movement popular at the turn of the century but it was echoed in Victorian times. It's stuff like overblown poetry, jewelry made of hair from dead relatives, momento mori. It was houses stuffed full of brick brack - nothing exceeds like excess. William was a romantic - his poetry shows that

BTW - good link on Momento mori - Trigger warniing - photographs of posed corpses. https://www.flickr.com/photos/misty_bee/sets/72157626699396884/

Yeah - father's taking sons to prostitutes was considered a rite of passage in a lot of history - there were all sorts of customs around the world. Wealthier young men could force servants but that could disrupt the household. There were all sorts of gradations and class from alley whore to recognized mistress. Charles II had 13 children - none born in wedlock. Until Victorian times this was just considered normal. Victoria was a prude, and the attitude sort of flowed downhill. There were class issue involved and other issues of politics and literature (Dickens). I doubt anyone took William, or that he could have performed. He seemed pretty self conscious and high strung.

I don't know... It would have been very disappointing for William's mother and I don't see him deliberately hurting her. Anyway that's one thing we know for sure it never happened because William definitely wasn't married and never had been 😛

Yeah, mother would definitely be a factor!

 

[NightLady]

Yeah, there was Lawson, and the people in the hotel (though that was passive - could have saved = kill?) I don't recall anyone else until Ats.

I don't consider the people in the hotel as Angel's killings. He did something very wrong but didn't kill them himself. Lawson...I'd say that even one kill would make what Angel said a lie, anyway there were definitely more. After being cursed he stayed with Darla, Spike and Dru for I think 2 years and during that time he killed humans. how many I don't know but were they 10, 100 or 1000 doesn't change the fact that he lied

Romantic meant huge, overwhelming - it was an attitude. It was a movement popular at the turn of the century but it was echoed in Victorian times. It's stuff like overblown poetry, jewelry made of hair from dead relatives, momento mori. It was houses stuffed full of brick brack - nothing exceeds like excess. William was a romantic - his poetry shows that

nice infos, thank you! anyway I'm not denying that William was a Romantic, he definitely was. I'm just saying that romanticism was (well, still is!) about love and at the time sex and love were kept separated and even romantics could have sex without love. So there is nothing really proving that William was a virgin, not even his character's traits. At least this is how I view it 🙂

BTW - good link on Momento mori - Trigger warniing - photographs of posed corpses. https://www.flickr.com/photos/misty_bee/sets/72157626699396884/

lol creepy! and the movie the others popped in my mind at once XD

Yeah, mother would definitely be a factor!

I can see her fainting at the news 😛