Did Angel the series have a negative effect on Btvs?

[Taake]

From the newsletter:


I said What?

"Joss is our show, I mean this is him. And when he first told me that he had this idea, I cried. I was excited for David. I was so excited at the concept that Joss would have a chance to tell more stories. Because that's what he does so brilliantly. But I was concerned because I don't think we know how to make our show without him." - Sarah Michelle Gellar (Joss Whedon: The Genius Behind Buffy)

What do you think "“ was there a decline in Buffy's quality after Angel the series came to life? Or was this an unfounded concern of Gellar's?

 

[zobothehobo]

I think Sarah probably had reason to be concerned, but I don't think the show actually suffered. The last three seasons are my favorites, and by the time the first one of those (5) rolled around, Angel was starting season 2. So no, I don't think there as a decline in Buffy's quality.

 

[Goby]

I don't know how anyone could do, BtVS, Angel and Firefly at the same time and not have the quality suffer. I absolutely love Angel Season 5, and I think that was when it was his only show (of course I might be wrong, and he might have been working hard on Serenity).

OTOH, I love the later BtVS seasons. I would take the last 3 over the first 3 any day. And he did have an incredible team of writers.

OTOH, the episode "Conversations with Dead People" is done by 4 writers, and the most brilliant storyline from the episode is Joss's.

OTOH, we do have 12 great seasons of the Buffyverse, with a great season of Firefly, all in a brief 8 year stretch.

OTOH, would we have more seasons of Buffy if there was no Angel?

OTOH, would we really want that, knowing how amazing Fred, Wesley, and Gunn were on Angel?

OTOH, would Firefly had lasted longer if there was no Angel?

OTOH, I'm really tired, and it's time for bed. 🙂

 

[spikecakes]

Obviously she would be a tad concerned, it's natural instinct. I mean, think about it. Joss starts on another show, leaving Buffy hanging for a while, your mind would immediately say, "Woah, am I about to lose my job?"

But, no, Buffy continued to be the epitome of awesome, as did Angel. I don't know how Joss did it. *Hugs Joss*

 

[Kean]

I think she was right. The quality nosedived for me once Joss took on another show, and that dive in quality was even more pronounced once Firefly came on the scene.

 

[VisionGirl]

I don't think that any decline in quality was due to ATS existing, if anything it was because he was working on 2, and then 3, shows at the same time. How does someone do that?! And even then I still think the shows were awesome. And we did get BTVS season 5 & Firefly in the midst of all that, so I understand her concerns but obviously it all worked out for everybody. (well, maybe not so much for Firefly 🙁)

 

[Scarlett Blade]

I don't think it did. In fact, my favorite seasons are after he started Angel. BTVS was always his baby (well, until firefly came around), and I don't think he ever intended to focus more on Angel and forget about Buffy. However, I think that when firefly came around, there was definately a drop in quality from both shows; IMO BTVS and ATS's worst seasons were 7 and 4 respectively, because Joss was so invested in firefly.

 

[sisterofmercy]

I don't think so, at least not until he was doing like 3 projects at once. I think Season 7 suffered a bit in terms of quality compared to other seasons,but on the whole I was happy enough with it. It's not like he was the only one writing/directing the whole thing.

 

[Kean]

I don't think that any decline in quality was due to ATS existing, if anything it was because he was working on 2, and then 3, shows at the same time. How does someone do that?! And even then I still think the shows were awesome. And we did get BTVS season 5 & Firefly in the midst of all that, so I understand her concerns but obviously it all worked out for everybody. (well, maybe not so much for Firefly 🙁)

That was the point she was making though, that Joss attention and commitment to Buffy was lessened because he had other ventures to focus on. And I think she was right. If you compare the three shows as they were running at the same time? Buffy S6, Angel S3 and Firefly. The best television was happening on Firefly. The calibre of episodes in FF was much stronger than what we were seeing on Buffy and Angel at the time, OMWF and Waiting in the Wings not withstanding.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

That was the point she was making though, that Joss attention and commitment to Buffy was lessened because he had other ventures to focus on. And I think she was right.

I disagree Kean; I do not think it was that Joss' attention was diverted with Angel getting his own show as much as when Angel got his own show. It coincided with the 'end' of the Buffy premise.

He wrote Buffy to be in high school. She was now going to college and growing up. So he was trying to write a "brand new" Buffy. The one aspect which could have made that easier as a tie for adolescent Buffy to 'adult' Buffy was Angel, but he was gone.

I think if Angel had been written out (for good) at the end of the second season, you may have seen as easier transition from the 3rd to the 4th season, as at least she could have taken a new beau as a senior and carried him to college to allow a bit or familiarity.

Giles didn't work as the familiar link. Angel or Boyfriend X would have.

 

[Kean]

I disagree Kean; I do not think it was that Joss' attention was diverted with Angel getting his own show as much as when Angel got his own show. It coincided with the 'end' of the Buffy premise.

He wrote Buffy to be in high school. She was now going to college and growing up. So he was trying to write a "brand new" Buffy. The one aspect which could have made that easier as a tie for adolescent Buffy to 'adult' Buffy was Angel, but he was gone.

I think if Angel had been written out (for good) at the end of the second season, you may have seen as easier transition from the 3rd to the 4th season, as at least she could have taken a new beau as a senior and carried him to college to allow a bit or familiarity.

Giles didn't work as the familiar link. Angel or Boyfriend X would have.

Well obviously I'm not going to agree with Angel being written out in S2 😛

I hear what your saying but I still feel SMG had a point. I love ATS, especially those first 2 seasons but I do think BTVS suffered without Angel and Cordy. The nature of the season contributed to the dip too, I acknowledge that. Breaking up the Scoobies was the beginning of the end in a sense. But I think there is still a valid question in wondering if Whedon hadn't been doing Angel and Firefly, would BTVS have been bettered serviced and thus given better storylines than we saw?

 

[VisionGirl]

That was the point she was making though, that Joss attention and commitment to Buffy was lessened because he had other ventures to focus on. And I think she was right. If you compare the three shows as they were running at the same time? Buffy S6, Angel S3 and Firefly. The best television was happening on Firefly. The calibre of episodes in FF was much stronger than what we were seeing on Buffy and Angel at the time, OMWF and Waiting in the Wings not withstanding.

I guess I read it differently. I read it like Sco- that SMG was concerned that the Angel storyline moving to its own series would weaken the Buffy storyline, not the production or writing of the show. And if that's the case, no I don't think the BTVS storyline suffered, I think that the addition of the ATS storyline enhanced the Buffyverse tremendously.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But I think there is still a valid question in wondering if Whedon hadn't been doing Angel and Firefly, would BTVS have been bettered serviced and thus given better storylines than we saw?

Do you ever think (in retrospect now) that maybe he told the story he wanted to tell (with Buffy, that being High School is hell) and moved on to greener pastures of Angel and Firefly and just produced Buffy as his cash cow to allow him to pursue other projects?

 

[Kean]

I guess I read it differently. I read it like Sco- that SMG was concerned that the Angel storyline moving to its own series would weaken the Buffy storyline, not the production or writing of the show. And if that's the case, no I don't think the BTVS storyline suffered, I think that the addition of the ATS storyline enhanced the Buffyverse tremendously.

See I see the storyline and the production/writing of the show as the same thing. And I agree, if we are talking of the verse, then ATS added to it wonderfully. No question. But if we are talking about BTVS as an individual show? I think it suffered.

This is the kind of thing that can only be opinion, there's no definitive answer. 🙂

---------- Post added at 07:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:03 PM ----------

Do you ever think (in retrospect now) that maybe he told the story he wanted to tell (with Buffy, that being High School is hell) and moved on to greener pastures of Angel and Firefly and just produced Buffy as his cash cow to allow him to pursue other projects?

Honestly? I think he done that with S5 Buffy. I fully believe the story he wanted to tell with Buffy ended with The Gift. The show never had the same heart afterwards.

Angel was David Greewalt's baby. I don't think Joss was every attached to that character (or show) like he was the others.

Firefly though? That's his baby. That's his what-could-have-been.

 

[Icarium]

I hear what your saying but I still feel SMG had a point. I love ATS, especially those first 2 seasons but I do think BTVS suffered without Angel and Cordy.

BtVS suffered without David Greenwalt, IMO.

But I think there is still a valid question in wondering if Whedon hadn't been doing Angel and Firefly, would BTVS have been bettered serviced and thus given better storylines than we saw?

Judging by the final episodes of BtVS and also AtS S5 which I believe were written after Firefly had crushed and burned - no, not at all. If anything, more Whedon involvement made AtS worse in S5.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

BtVS suffered without David Greenwalt, IMO.

I concur

Judging by the final episodes of BtVS and also AtS S5 which I believe were written after Firefly had crushed and burned - no, not at all. If anything, more Whedon involvement made AtS worse in S5.

I fully concur.

---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:28 PM ----------

Firefly though? That's his baby. That's his what-could-have-been.

Yeah, could have. But even at that Serenity was not Firefly. If Joss would have moved Firefly to be more like Serenity in seasons two, three, four, then it wouldn't have been either.

 

[VisionGirl]

Angel was David Greewalt's baby. I don't think Joss was every attached to that character (or show) like he was the others.

Firefly though? That's his baby. That's his what-could-have-been.

I completely agree with both of these statements. David Greenwalt did an excellent job with the story of Angel, and Joss adored Firefly. I don't get that same kind of feeling from him about Dollhouse for example.

Judging by the final episodes of BtVS and also AtS S5 which I believe were written after Firefly had crushed and burned - no, not at all. If anything, more Whedon involvement made AtS worse in S5.

I think ATS season 5 is one of those things that can go either way: I see that some people hate it, others love it. Either way, there is a definite different feel than the 1st 4 seasons.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I don't get that same kind of feeling from him about Dollhouse for example.

I always attributed it to the fact that Dushku came to him to do the project versus it being something he felt strongly attached to.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I don't think the show suffered, I think she only said that because she knew she'll miss him, because they were so close.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I don't think BtVS suffered just because Angel got his own show. If anything, I think it helped with the development of Buffy's character and gave her a chance to stand on her own two feet.
I didn't care much for the Initiative storyline in Season 4, but I really loved what they did with Season 5. Season 6 was alright, if we could have taken away the Dark Willow subplot. And I really liked what they did with Season 7, minus the Scoobies getting shafted for Potentials' screen time.