Did Anya have a soul?

[dj651]

I'm willing to bet this topic has been discussed to death, but I'm going to ask again:

When Anya was a vengeance demon, did she have a soul?

I think she did. It seems like D'Hoffryn chooses women who are capable of doing horrible things even when they're human and have souls. For these women, having a conscience (or whatever it is a soul gives you) doesn't stop them from enacting vengeance on people who they think deserve it.

This would also kind of explain why Anya didn't feel bad about the past 1000 years when she became human again. I think that if she hadn't had a soul when she was a demon and then got it back when she was human, she would have gone through some process of coping with her guilt like Angel and Spike did when they got back their souls. Also, when she becomes a demon again, she does feel bad for what she does, which would indicate a soul, in my opinion.

Other ideas?

 

[shadcat]

She didn't have a soul when she was a demon. She was a demon, and the type of demon she was is evil. The show wouldn't have incorporated her into the Scooby Gang in such a way if she was a murderous human being. She was murderous and evil as a demon, but she was no longer that.

She was kind of like Darla was when she became human in Angel season 2. She remembered being evil...she wanted to go back to it..but slowly humanity was changing her.

 

[ashleigh]

I don't think that she did, since she knew when Spike had gotten his soul back. She must have had some understanding of what it was like to be soulless to be be able to know that.

 

[dj651]

She didn't have a soul when she was a demon. She was a demon, and the type of demon she was is evil. The show wouldn't have incorporated her into the Scooby Gang in such a way if she was a murderous human being. She was murderous and evil as a demon, but she was no longer that.

What about in Selfless, though, when D'Hoffryn tells her that to undo her wish at the fraternity house, it would require "The life and soul of a Vengeance Demon." That makes it sound like vengeance demons have souls.

 

[NY State of Mind]

Yeah they have souls....how can they take away her soul and not do it again when she became a demon again....she always had a soul

 

[shadcat]

What about in Selfless, though, when D'Hoffryn tells her that to undo her wish at the fraternity house, it would require "The life and soul of a Vengeance Demon." That makes it sound like vengeance demons have souls.

It just wouldn't make any sense to me. She didn't have the soul of a human, as she had no humanity whatsoever. She constantly talked about how humanity was weird and she didn't understand it.

Best explanation I can come up with is that Vengeance Demons have different souls than Human Beings. (Void of humanity)

 

[Mr Giles]

As a demon, no she didnt have a soul. D'yhoffren was manipulative and evil, so it makes sense for him to convince people they are vengeful, just like he tried with Willow. The whole buffyverse rules go like, if your a demon, you dont have a soul. Humans do. Simples! 🙂

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Best explanation I can come up with is that Vengeance Demons have different souls than Human Beings. (Void of humanity)

I agree that Anya's soul is something else. If a soul can be defined as sort of a moral compass which is evaluated and kept in check by a conscience, (more or less how I'd define it in simple terms), I think it is fair to say that Anya has a different moral compass from that which we would call "humanity."

I would say that she didn't have a soul at all, but as has been pointed out, D'Hoffryn clearly refers to the "life and soul" of a vengeance demon. Ergo, different soul.

I sort of think of it as akin to serial killers in the real world. "Humanity" is largely based on the notion that one follows a "human" code of conduct informed by certain parameters and kept in check by conscience. In other words, we don't kill because we realize that it is "wrong" and if we were to do so we would experience "guilt." (That's putting it in the simplest terms and not accounting for the further deterrent of jail time of course.) Whether due to psycopathological reasons, brain chemistry, underdevelopment, abuse, etc. there are some among us who lack those kind of constraints. They do not understand how taking a life is "wrong" in the way we do, and they do not experience guilt or grief in the same way either.

Even within the confines of what we call "humanity," the notion of "vengeance" or "justice" often comes at the cost of what our codes and consciences tell us are "wrong." Vigilante justice supposes that it is ok to kill those who have killed, for example, and those who commit such acts make room in their personal definitions of "right" and "wrong" to allow for vengeance. So it is not at all a stretch to imagine that someone who lacks any of these definitions to begin with, (the typical serial killer mind I mentioned above), would easily be able to commit acts of vengeance without any moral restraint.

In fact, for a vengeance demon, justice is actually held as the highest priority from a moral standpoint. I would argue that those in that community might actually consider it "wrong" and "inappropriate" not to punish and kill, and might feel guilty for lack of doing so. Their "souls" might effectively ensure that they commit acts of justice so that they won't feel guilt and regret.

I think there are several things about Anya's personality post demon days that can further support this theory.

She doesn't exactly lament over her past actions, though she clearly recognizes, as a human that they were "wrong." In the Jossverse, it's "poof" and you're no longer a demon, "poof" and you have a different kind of soul, or a soul instead of none. So the understanding of humanity is not a given, just the knowledge of something different. It's clearly a struggle for Anya. She knew before that "killing for justice was right." She now understands that "killing is wrong, unless in self defense." But while 1000 plus years gave her time to figure out exactly why she felt justified in killing people, she now doesn't quite understand why she now believes she wouldn't be. I also think that's why it was relatively easy for her to decide to become a demon again. In short: she wasn't convinced by the knowledge she had with a human "soul" since it effectively made far less sense to her than that which she'd acquired with her different moral code intact, for so many years.

 

[dj651]

I agree that Anya's soul is something else. If a soul can be defined as sort of a moral compass which is evaluated and kept in check by a conscience, (more or less how I'd define it in simple terms), I think it is fair to say that Anya has a different moral compass from that which we would call "humanity."

I would say that she didn't have a soul at all, but as has been pointed out, D'Hoffryn clearly refers to the "life and soul" of a vengeance demon. Ergo, different soul.

Would you propose that this would be a normal variation in soul type, or specific to demon? As you pointed out below, there are people who act/behave similarly to Anya.

In fact, for a vengeance demon, justice is actually held as the highest priority from a moral standpoint. I would argue that those in that community might actually consider it "wrong" and "inappropriate" not to punish and kill, and might feel guilty for lack of doing so. Their "souls" might effectively ensure that they commit acts of justice so that they won't feel guilt and regret.

I think this is a really interesting theory, but again, is it specific to demons? Anya clearly felt her vengeance was justified when she turned Olaf into a troll. Don't you think that it's possible that D'Hoffryn chose the women he chose because he saw these aspects already present in their souls, or at least something that would allow him to easily cultivate these characteristics?

She doesn't exactly lament over her past actions, though she clearly recognizes, as a human that they were "wrong." In the Jossverse, it's "poof" and you're no longer a demon, "poof" and you have a different kind of soul, or a soul instead of none. So the understanding of humanity is not a given, just the knowledge of something different. It's clearly a struggle for Anya. She knew before that "killing for justice was right." She now understands that "killing is wrong, unless in self defense."

I also think that's why it was relatively easy for her to decide to become a demon again. In short: she wasn't convinced by the knowledge she had with a human "soul" since it effectively made far less sense to her than that which she'd acquired with her different moral code intact, for so many years.

Another question here: if becoming a demon alters Anya's soul (either its characteristics or its presence), then why does she still believe that killing is wrong after she becomes a vengeance demon again? If it was as simple as changing her soul, I would have expected an Angel-to-Angelus-esque transformation. Instead, she's horrified by what she does. To me, this indicates that she's developed some sort of moral code regarding killing as being inherently wrong, which wouldn't seem possible to maintain as a vengeance demon with an altered (or no) soul.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Would you propose that this would be a normal variation in soul type, or specific to demon? As you pointed out below, there are people who act/behave similarly to Anya.

Good question. I really don't know! I think it would probably be specific to the demon; that demons could have souls which effectively make them act similarly to the way in which certain humans behave but which actually inform a strict moral code instead of a lack thereof which would be the case with said humans. What do you think?

I think this is a really interesting theory, but again, is it specific to demons? Anya clearly felt her vengeance was justified when she turned Olaf into a troll. Don't you think that it's possible that D'Hoffryn chose the women he chose because he saw these aspects already present in their souls, or at least something that would allow him to easily cultivate these characteristics?

A great point. I absolutely think that D'Hoffryn chooses women who he believes to value and seek out vengeance when wronged, (Anya and Willow). To him this was a "talent" within the confines of a human existence, (soul et al), which he believed could easily translate into a powerful demon. The fact that she would undoubtedly be transformed anyway upon acquiring this demon "soul" I suppose would make this predisposition toward vengeance rather unnecessary, but then again it makes sense that D'Hoffryn would prefer such women to others I think.

Another question here: if becoming a demon alters Anya's soul (either its characteristics or its presence), then why does she still believe that killing is wrong after she becomes a vengeance demon again? If it was as simple as changing her soul, I would have expected an Angel-to-Angelus-esque transformation. Instead, she's horrified by what she does. To me, this indicates that she's developed some sort of moral code regarding killing as being inherently wrong, which wouldn't seem possible to maintain as a vengeance demon with an altered (or no) soul.

Could have sworn someone would bring this up! Honestly this is a big hole in my theory, in some regards. But I think it can be thought of this way: Anya retained the memories of how she felt as a demon about killings and vengeance when she became a human, so it would be possible that upon becoming a demon again, she could remember clearly that killing is "wrong," even though she might have trouble understanding why right away. Her misgivings about it would come from the memory of feeling differently, the same way they had informed her knowledge when she was human that she had been "wrong" as a demon.
So I think that allowed for the possibility of realization and reflection. That was the foundation for her change of heart. The rest, I think, was Xander. Seeing him standing there I believe was enough to let those feelings come rushing back even without her human soul. It's a logical stretch I know, but I think that this show is all about monsters transforming for love. At least, I believe it happened for Spike; even without a soul he could be inspired to do and be good out of love for Buffy, learning what was "wrong" by paying attention to her wants. So I believe that in that moment something similar happened to Anya.

This would actually mean that Angel/Angelus is the only character on the show who is so entirely black and white. Almost everyone else is capable of falling and reforming while maintaining the exact same composition: those with human souls do evil things and reform, (Willow, Anya, Faith). Those without souls or with demonic souls do good things and evil things and reform accordingly as well. Everyone has a grey area and can be swayed to do either good or evil as they are; by maintaining integrity or coming up with their own standards of morality they can actually have control over their actions in a way Angel/Angelus seemingly can't.

 

[Sweet J]

I don't think Anya had a soul.

However there are 'good demons' in the jossverse. Do they have souls? I would think, yes.

 

[dj651]

Good question. I really don't know! I think it would probably be specific to the demon; that demons could have souls which effectively make them act similarly to the way in which certain humans behave but which actually inform a strict moral code instead of a lack thereof which would be the case with said humans. What do you think?

Personally, within the Buffyverse, I think a soul is a soul, and while there are obviously going to be variations and things that make each one unique, there aren't going to be specific types of souls for specific races/breeds/whatever the politically correct term is. Common trends, at least within vengeance demons, are in my opinion, a result of the kind of woman chosen to become a vengeance demon.

A great point. I absolutely think that D'Hoffryn chooses women who he believes to value and seek out vengeance when wronged, (Anya and Willow). To him this was a "talent" within the confines of a human existence, (soul et al), which he believed could easily translate into a powerful demon. The fact that she would undoubtedly be transformed anyway upon acquiring this demon "soul" I suppose would make this predisposition toward vengeance rather unnecessary, but then again it makes sense that D'Hoffryn would prefer such women to others I think.

Considering D'Hoffryn is evil and all, I think that if he was able to make a pure, innocent girl into a vengeance demon, that might be a bit of fun. Since it's implied that the woman has to choose to become a vengeance demon, though, I think there's something inherently vengeance-seeking in their souls to begin with that is simply retained through the demonization process.

But I think it can be thought of this way: Anya retained the memories of how she felt as a demon about killings and vengeance when she became a human, so it would be possible that upon becoming a demon again, she could remember clearly that killing is "wrong," even though she might have trouble understanding why right away. Her misgivings about it would come from the memory of feeling differently, the same way they had informed her knowledge when she was human that she had been "wrong" as a demon.

Question here: If Anya had a soul when she was human 1000 years ago and then and lost it when she became a demon, don't you would think that she would have experienced something similar to what you're describing here? That the idea of killing for vengeance as being "wrong" would have stuck with her to a certain extent?

You could argue that she didn't feel as though this was wrong until she became human again and met Xander, but I don't think that's particularly relevant. If she had no moral qualms with enacting vengeance when she was a human with a soul, there's no indication that she would have to be soul-less to perform her duties as a demon.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I think theres a possibility she has her soul.

There are a few instances were her humanity came out as a demon, and her inhumanity came across when she was a human.

She CHOSE to become a demon, she did it because she was wronged as a moral women, so she started doing "justice" on behalf of scorned women, so she could have justified it to herself.

Anya didn't kill for fun or pleasure she did it because she believed she was providing a needed service to women who have been wronged, you don't really need to remove a soul to make someone do something like that if they can justify it.

I think she would have come across as inhuman because of the amount of time she spent in the demon world, she was desensitised to it.

It would also explain why it was so easy to move back and forth from demon to human, they wouldn't have to remove a soul.

 

[Taake]

I think Anya had a soul, just like Willow when she's dark has a soul. I think that by becoming a demon (being human first) the demonic side suppressed her humanity, which as Black Eye Guy pointed out beame more and more desensitised to it throughout the centuries.

Anyanka was driven on by a righteous rage, not a soulless need for blood and destruction, so yes I believe her soul was intact during her demonic days. That's how she could become human again, becoming a demon was like putting her humanity on pause...

 

[criacuervos]

I've wondered this a lot as well. The thing is, there is no real correct or perfect answer, because the "laws of souls" (if I can call them that🙂 in the buffy universe are not consistent. I'm not sure if there has ever been an answer from a creator or writer, but the truth is if you think about it too much, there are many conflicting elements which cause that part of things to make less and less sense.

My gut would be to say that Anya had a soul while human, and no soul as a demon, because we want to believe "our Anya", the human Anya, was essentially and ultimately good and only killed because she was soulless. But she didn't go through the same process as Angel and Spike (and Spike and Angel's soul journeys were very different from each other as well -- I'll talk about that after). She was really very much the same 'person' as a demon and a human. She dealt with the world the same way, spoke the same way. The only difference was the killing (which is huge, yes). She even displayed a desire to kill and a neglect for humanity after she was turned back into a human the first time, it gradually went away and was portrayed as "growth". But her character, her Anya-ness really stayed the same.

This isn't consistent with Angel's journey at all - he is two completely different characters with a soul and without a soul - he even has two distinct identities, and refers to his "Angelus" side in the third person, as if it is totally other. Angelus is a completely separate personality. Although Anya has the name "Anyanka", Anya/Anyanka run pretty seamlessly together. The differences she displays over the thousands of years - her journey from Aud to death - is more of a learning curve. Ups and downs, but mostly growth. She never completely goes back to evil - she maintains that level of humanness while committing evil acts, and chooses to undo it and return to her human self. That is something Angelus would never choose to do.

Spike's journey is more similar to Anya's, in that his personality remains quite consistent throughout. He is able to love Buffy, able to act selflessly, heroically, while being evil. They didn't remain consistent in this of course (part of the reason why I feel the rape scene is especially confusing...). He is ruled by his emotions. But he has very HUMAN emotions. I could never come up with a logical reason is to why Angelus was evil incarnate, cruel to the bone without a soul, whereas Spike was so human at times. He was able to CHOOSE the soul. He was human enough to want to be completely good. Again, Angelus would never make that decision. It's part of why I greatly prefer Spike to Angel. The reason behind it is kind of confusing, but Spike is able to love without a soul, and Angel isn't.

Generally, the writers aren't consistent with the idea of what it means to be a demon. At some points they say when a human becomes a vampire it looks like the person but the person is completely gone, and at other points, they suggest the total opposite - that the person is still there. The former is true of Angel/Angelus, the latter is true of Spike. Whereas Angel's switch turns him from GOOD to BAD and back again, Spike's switch seems to just light up the goodness that is within him in the 5th and 6th seasons. Like he has all the right motivations and intentions, he just needs that little spark of soul to be truly good.

As far as Evil Willow goes...I think that's another kettle of fish in that she is not turned into a demon. I look at that as more of a possession. She dabbles in evil forces and loses control of their power. She never loses her soul, but it is suppressed underneath pain, anger, and forces of darkness she has engaged.

Those are my thoughts on the soul issue! The more you think about it the more confusing it is!

 

[Grey Ghost]

Demons are normaly souless, exceptions being Angel and later spike. As for Anya she was not the easiest to work out, theoretically no soul but the way she acted it was if she had one. She went out with Xander and truly loved him so would that constitute a soul?

 

[Faith717132]

Certainly

Yep, Anya had a soul.

🙂

 

[Robb Stark]

Oh yeah, she always had a soul. She just chose to murder people anyways.

 

[Step]

I'm pretty sure she did, else she wouldn't have felt so guilty in Selfless.

She did pretty bad stuff before she was a demon as well, if she didn't D'Hoffryn wouldn't have offered to turn her into a demon.

 

[YummySushiPJs]

When Anya asks D'Hoffryn to bring all the frat boys back to life in "Selfless" he says such an act requires "the life and soul of a vengeance demon". So it seems they do have souls.