Did anyone else get the feeling that Team Angel were better than the Scoobies?

[Robb Stark]

Not so much in power levels or anything like that, but in terms of how they handled themselves and how they treated one another. The Scoobies are, for the most part, pretty awesome in seasons 1-3, but after that, with the exception of Buffy, they get pretty horrible to one another.

I began to think more about this after reading posts by [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] and [MENTION=9740]Tome[/MENTION]. After the Scoobies get over the initial "wow" factor of being superheroes and helping Buffy, it kind of becomes a job to them. They're all incredibly brave and whatnot, but personally they drift apart and never really come back together. And while some of it comes down to poor writing, they're all pretty horrendous to Buffy (well, except for Xander. He really only has one truly horrible moment to her in "Becoming"). By S7 they seem to be just coming to work everyday. Willow and Giles are pretty horrific in S6 (and Giles doesn't exactly stop that trend in S7). Riley can't really get over himself. Anya isn't ever really "friends" with any of them beyond Xander (and there's a great thread, about this very topic, on the boards right now). Tara was close with people but didn't bring the group closer like she could have. Spike isn't ever "friends" with anyone beyond Andrew and Dawn. Andrew is just kind of there.

Now contrast that with Angel's team. They all support each other, no matter how crappy things get. They don't decide to stab their friends in the back, and the only time that really happen, with Wesley, there are some pretty big extenuating circumstances. All of them seem to really understand why they're there and not have any resentment because of it (unlike a lot of the Scoobies). They all seem to genuinely respect one another. They communicate, which is something the Scoobies never seem to do. The biggest indicator of this, for me anyways, is in S5, when Spike joins the team. They're about as apart from one another as they ever get that season, Cordy and Connor are gone, and Spike still fits in seamlessly. He seems to really become friends with Fred, Gunn and even Angel (well, to a certain extent).

What do you guys think?

 

[BuffyElevated]

I do think in the way they treated each other and their planning, they were more efficient and better because they were a more mature group of people.

 

[tec]

No way that whole thing in S4 with Connor and then Jasmin forget it Scoobies over Angel investgations any day

Also they had to have Willow save there collective butts when Angel whent Angelus

 

[Robb Stark]

No way that whole thing in S4 with Connor and then Jasmin forget it Scoobies over Angel investgations any day

Also they had to have Willow save there collective butts when Angel whent Angelus

I meant more personally, in how they treated one another. Jasmine mind-controlled the bulk of the planet, and Angel Investigations made a really bad decision in bringing Angelus back, but neither of those are reflective of the way the group interacts with and respects one another.

I probably should have been clearer. I'm not talking about cooler characters (although I do like the Angel characters better on the whole) or which teams needed help more (you could say, in contrast to Willow helping them out in the Angelus situation, that Angel was the one who helped Buffy the most emotionally after Joyce died, but I don't think his presence speaks to the Scoobies, if that makes any sense. And I just know [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] will LOVE that perspective...)

 

[Tuppence]

I think Angel Investigations have some real stinker moments too when they treat one another badly, or fall out with one another, or go ahead and do something without telling the others. So I don't think either team handle things more maturely or treat one another better, it's just Angel Investigations are running things as a business so at the end of the day personal things are eventually forced aside. Whereas with Buffy even though they do have bigger things to consider than personal feelings, because they are really only answerable to themselves for their actions they have the liberty to be p'd off at one another longer.
Then again you could also argue the reason why there are more arguments and conflicts with the Buffy lot is they have been friends a lot longer, and the having been friends with people so long and spending practically every moment with them can make situations volatile. And maybe you could theorize that if not for the whole regularly-saving-the-world thing, and they had just been regular friends, they would have drifted apart during their first year of uni.

Willow and Giles are pretty horrific in S6 (and Giles doesn't exactly stop that trend in S7). Riley can't really get over himself. Anya isn't ever really "friends" with any of them beyond Xander (and there's a great thread, about this very topic, on the boards right now). Tara was close with people but didn't bring the group closer like she could have. Spike isn't ever "friends" with anyone beyond Andrew and Dawn. Andrew is just kind of there.

I have to agree on the Willow and Giles front in Season 6 and 7 (But I always thought a lot of Giles' actions in season 7 were rather suddenly out of character). But as for Riley- people always seem to have that general opinion of him, but that's not how I saw it. His belief in his ability came from years of training where his original personality would have been broke down and then built up again to suit the initiative (much like they do in the army and the navy) and then when he's no longer super (with the chip and the drugs etc) its not feeling inferior that makes him act crazy, its the fear that being less than what he was would mean he would lose the girl he loves and that makes him self-destructive. And I've always seen Anya as a girl/demon of habit- she's always been frank and difficult to like as we saw in Selfless, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have loyalties and care about people (I mean she clearly cared about Olaf and was really freaking hurt when he betrayed her. it's just instead of the usual revenge she changed him into a troll....a bit dramatic perhaps) and the way she fearlessly joins the fight in The Gift and in Chosen I think is definitely about more than just Xander. She may not freely admit it but I think she does care for all of them, and believes in their fight. And I think Tara is just shy- that doesn't mean not close. I have a friend like Tara and she is one of the loyalist and loveliest friends ever, but she is still very reserved even after knowing her years.

Just thought I'd put my two penneth in 😛

 

[tec]

We want your two cents heck we would take the whole doller if we could.

ok say they dint save the world on a daly basis and that there friendship did last all three years of HS what whould they have done as friends it thoses years that let thim bond would that bond hold up during collage life?...I guess this line of thought strays from the topic..

But I look at it like this Angel made all the wrong chices for all the right reasons his hart was in the right place but his actions where dictated and manuplated by an evil law firm.

Where as the scoobies cut ties to things that got in there way like the Watchers councel they answered to only thimselfs and kept the world from tumbleing into chaos 7/8 times
Buffy time and time again made the tought diffcult choices sacking her own life...twice...I honestly dont know how much more mature you can get

The world should have a gaint umbrella staue in her honor..but no..she gets booted out of the country...

Angel is winning his humanty back one soul at a time and Buffy gets more and more screwed each time she saves the world. But she Buffy and I know she can take it

 

[white avenger]

Angel was the one who helped Buffy the most emotionally after Joyce died, but I don't think his presence speaks to the Scoobies, if that makes any sense. And I just know [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] will LOVE that perspective...)

Okay, since you brought it up...

Angel came in for one scene after Joyce died, and no matter how beautiful that one scene was (and it ranks at #2 or 3 in my "Best Bangel Moments") having been in both his and Buffy's situation myself, my opinion is that Buffy's other friends were far more help to both Buffy and Dawn during that time than Angel possibly could have been, simply because they were there for her more. Certainly, that Bangel moment was beautiful, and the, "I'll be here for as long as you need me," and "How does forever sound," was a perfect example of their feelings for each other, I seriously doubt that anyone could say that Buffy only needed Angel's support and comfort for those few moments and no more.

The Scoobies were the actual ones who there in the days and months after Joyce's death, and for simply that fact, they were far more supportive than Angel ever could have been, and that in no way means that I don't fully believe that Angel would have been there for her if it were at all possible, but it simply wasn't. As much as Buffy needed him in Sunnydale, Angel was needed more in Los Angeles. His work was there, his duty was there, and that was where he had to be.

Xander, Willow, Giles, and, yes, I have to say it, Spike, were there for Buffy on a more permanent basis than Angel could possibly have been, and even though there never was any specific scene depicting the fact, that fact is inescapable. The death of a loved one, especially anyone as close as a parent, leaves a void in someone's life that takes weeks, months, or even years to fill, if it ever can be filled at all, and no single moment, no matter how intense and beautiful, can do anything more more than begin the healing process.

And now, as to the original question, Certainly Team Angel was better than the Scoobies, for the simple reason that they actually WERE a team, rather than a group of friends who got together to help patrol the hellmouth every night. The Scoobies were a group of teenagers pursuing a hobby, where as Team Angel were mature professionals doing a full time job, and yes, I am aware that Cordy was supposed to be the same age as Xander and Willow, but the fact is undeniable that she was depicted in a more mature, adult way than they were. The Scoobies were well meaning amateurs. whereas the members of Team Angel were true professionals. The fact that the Scoobies were probably closer friends only further illustrates the point. "The Yoko Factor" in Season 4 shows us how dependent Buffy's team members are of their mutual friendship to function properly. Wes, Cordy, Fred, and Gunn were friends, certainly, but it was their dedication to the job that actually kept them together.

 

[tec]

I think Tara was the bigger help to Buffy during that time

 

[Buffy Summers]

Well, I like Team Angel more than I like the Scoobies, but I'm not sure whether I would say they were better.

 

[iShower4free]

Angel may not have been there for Buffy a great deal of time when Joyce died but he got her through that first night after the funeral which I think to her would have been the hardest night and Buffy knowing that he would have stayed as long as she wanted him to I think gave her a lot of comfort helping her. Angel helped the Scoobies on multiple occasions saving Buffy once and basically the world the second time.

But the Angel crew I think were a) more mature, even if only because of their general age, and 2) and maybe closer, because they spent basically all their time living together and hunting together where as the Scoobies who did spend a lot of time together in small groups werent really together unless there was some sort of threat.

 

[Robb Stark]

This is a quote from [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] in a previous thread that I think really sums up the point I'm trying to get across here:

I've thought about this a lot and while I think it is completely obvious when you look for it, I haven't decided why there is such a difference. What I edge towards is that there is an element of the Owen Effect with the Scoobies. At the beginning they got swept away with the whole slaying thing and it became their lives. And while they showed incredible courage and fortitude in that decision they also had no idea what they were really doing. As the reality of slaying began to reveal itself and make it known to their lives, when slaying started to cost them (and I think that begins with Angelus killing Miss Calendar) they realise the price they pay for being Buffy's ally and resentments set in and walls started going up. Where as with the Fang Gang they all chose each other. They chose the fight. They are so much more forgiving and understanding of each other. They are so much more welcoming to outsiders. They will take anyone in, they will give them a home, they'll be your family. After all, they help the helpless. That shows in how they treat each other. Even Spike, who was forever an outsider among the Scoobies, found a home and a place to be with the AI Team. I can't help but think the reason that is is because every person on the AI Team knew, personally, what it meant to not belong to anything. They knew loneliness. The knew isolation. Buffy also knew that, but the core Scoobies didn't. Xander and Willow had belonged to each other since forever, they found other people to belong to that had nothing to do with slaying. Even Giles had that with Olivia. In the later seasons, Buffy was severely lacking in that.

This really made sense to me.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

It's interesting because I hadn't thought of that until Kean had posted that in the other thread, and reading it made a lot of sense and it seemed very accurate.

I think they continue to work well as a group up to Buffy's death. I think the major disconnect comes after Buffy dies.

When the Scoobies brought her back, they were pretty proud of themselves, they would have been expecting praise for that act, and it's not something they ever got, not with any meaning in it.
Then they find out that Buffy was in Heaven and know the reason why they didn't get the praise they wanted, but they wouldn't ever comprehend what being in heaven meant for Buffy, I think they still would have been looking for that praise.

Buffy on the other hand, turned from them. She didn't want to tell them she was in heaven, and after it was revealed, she still pulled away. She was the one that put the gap between them, choosing to seek comfort in Spike for that year.

Then in season 7, she basically becomes their dictator, she doesn't treat them with any kind of respect that her gang should have gotten, they got delegated to basically someone she had to protect just like the potentials. She keeps mentioning that Spike is the next best thing to her, which shows how stupid Buffy is.
In season 5 when they run from Glory, she brings Spike saying he's the only one that can take on Glory next to her - this is just not the case, Spike plays no major role in protecting them, Willows magic shield does all the work, and Willow is the only one that actually takes her own when she sucks Tara's brain.

Same in season 7, we're constantly getting told how important Spike is, but again it's Willow that is the biggest player when it comes to the battle. Spike may have taken out the Army, but Angel could have worn that necklace.
Spike doesn't actually bringing anything that only he could bring to the table. Whereas, Willow is an immensely powerful witch, it's safe to say that no one else could have done what Willow did. Willow should have always been number 2, with Giles and Xander there for guidance.
Instead because they actually disagree with her, she chooses in Spike, knowing he's just going to agree with whatever she wants.

I don't think the blame lies with the scoobies, or at least not all of it, I think Buffy's own decisions lead them in the direction they took.

 

[Kean]

For me the route of this question always comes down to which group would I like to be part of? And the answer to that is always, always the AI team. I just get the feeling that even as useless old, human me could find a purpose and place among that group. A place that I absolutely would not find among the Scoobies. There's lots of different reasons for this, a few of which [MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION] has quoted above. I've been thinking about it some more and I think the physical locations each group inhabits plays a part too. Think of Sunnydale and the set up there; cramped, overcrowed, overwhelming. There's this forced amalgamation of Buffy's personal life with her slaying life. It's all living under her roof, especially in S5-7. She can't escape it. She can't separate the two. Then think of Angel with that cavernous hotel in that sprawling city. A city so big people go there to get lost. There is literally room for everyone. If the lives and work of the AI team get tangled up, it is nearly always because they chose to have it that way. I think choice is at the heart of this issue. The Scoobies, one way or another, were chosen. The AI Team made choices.

Another thing I've been thinking about is how the AI Team functions no matter who makes up that team. The absence of Angel didn't stop the rest of the team from carrying on. Nor did the loss of Wesley, Cordy or Fred. They didn't seek out his re-entering the group, he asked to let back in. If he hadn't asked that of them, chances are they would have continued on that path without him. Granted, they probably wouldn't have lasted very long, but I think it is important that they find purpose in the absence of the established leader. In contrast there is Buffy dying and the Scoobies need to not only instate a "new" Buffy i.e. Willow as the "Boss of them" but their pursuit of resurrecting Buffy. They wanted to the leader, The Slayer back. There is no moving on, no adapting because their purpose is to be "The Slayerettes" they can't be that without the slayer. Where as the AI Team share a united goal to help the helpless that transcends the importance of any one member.

I think the freedom of AI allows for better friendships too. They do terrible things to each other but they move past them, they make amends with each other. They keep on keeping on. I don't think there is a single issue that the Fang Gang had left unresolved with each other. But the Scoobies have years of resentment and issues still festering away and driving them apart.

 

[Lyri]

To be perfectly honest, I think Buffy grew to resent the Scoobies a little - or at least, she grew to resent the freedom that they had that she can never even taste.

The Scoobies choose to help Buffy, yes, but they can walk away any time they want. Buffy can't, she can never walk away from this because she knows what will happen if she tries.

I think she envies that escape hatch, and whenever she DID manage to get out - when she died - they were the ones who pulled her back in, because they didn't feel like they could go on without her.

Yes, the Hellmouth was without a guardian with Buffy dead, but there could have been ways to get Faith out of jail if they really thought about it. Faith wasn't completely reformed by that point, but she wasn't homicidal anymore either, and I think actually living the life of the Slayer she should have been would have helped Faith more as well. Angel could have returned to Sunnydale with his crew, or they could have just continued to do as they were doing with the Bot and Spike taking on the heavy lifting while Willow did her thing.

I don't think the AI team are 'better' friends in that sense of the word, but I think they have a better handle on what it means to be friends in the middle of trying to fight this war. They have interests and friends outside of this 'job', and they see it as that for much of the time - a job.

The Scoobies don't have that, they're isolated in their own little bubble - friends and family and work colleagues and significant others all rolled into one big mess.

 

[iShower4free]

Spike doesn't actually bringing anything that only he could bring to the table. Whereas, Willow is an immensely powerful witch, it's safe to say that no one else could have done what Willow did. Willow should have always been number 2, with Giles and Xander there for guidance.
Instead because they actually disagree with her, she chooses in Spike, knowing he's just going to agree with whatever she wants.

I don't think the blame lies with the scoobies, or at least not all of it, I think Buffy's own decisions lead them in the direction they took.

I don't exactly agree with this. First of all Angel couldn't be there all the time and when it came down to a fight Spike was the next best thing to Buffy. If they could trust Willows magic to not overwhelm her than you could argue that she should have been #2 but that just wasn't the case.

About Buffy becoming some sort of dictator maybe she did but it was literally a war and in those situations you need someone with the final vote or else nothing will get done. It's not like when they stripped Buffy of her leadership role that they all of a sudden became a democracy again, all they did was give all the decision making power to someone else who given enough time would have had to make the exact same choices Buffy did.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I don't exactly agree with this. First of all Angel couldn't be there all the time and when it came down to a fight Spike was the next best thing to Buffy. If they could trust Willows magic to not overwhelm her than you could argue that she should have been #2 but that just wasn't the case.

But by mid season 7 they could trust Willows magic to not overwhelm her, they were able to organize that "demonstration" where she couldn't keep the barrier up, and by the end she was the biggest weapon they had activating all the potentials.

I get that Spike was important to have there along the way, but he was given an inflated sense of purpose, that I don't think he was entitled to. If Spike hadn't been there in the last episode Angel would have worn the amulet. I just mean that Willow couldn't have been replaced, no one could have done what she done, Spike on the other hand could have been swapped out, Angel could have stayed had Spike not been there, and I'm not arguing the merit of Spike being there just the practicality of it, he was replaceable for what went down in the Hellmouth, and Amulet aside he was no more help then one of the activated slayers.

I just don't think it was fair that Spike got all this praise thrust upon him that, to me, hadn't been earned yet, and when compared with the importance of someone like Willow to the actual battle, he wasn't number 2.

About Buffy becoming some sort of dictator maybe she did but it was literally a war and in those situations you need someone with the final vote or else nothing will get done. It's not like when they stripped Buffy of her leadership role that they all of a sudden became a democracy again, all they did was give all the decision making power to someone else who given enough time would have had to make the exact same choices Buffy did.

But they did become a democracy. They all agreed on the plan to go into the sewers. It backfired but it was agreed upon together, when they opposed going back to the Vineyard, Buffy just shut them down and said they were going.

I do partly agree that she had to be that way, she was the leader, but I think that same responsibility is what caused a division in the group. For me by the end, she knew she was doing it all wrong. She might have been the leader, but she didn't have to lead that way, and in the final battle she realizes all that, changes how she approaches the battle and handles it like the leader should have.


I forgot to start my original post saying that I do think the group dynamic was better in Angel then the Scoobies. Angel wasn't the defined leader at all times, they all knew he was and he did a lot of stuff on his own decisions, but a lot of what they did was a group decision. Even how Angel worked under Wesley, he was the leader, but he didn't grab leadership and demand it the way Buffy chose to do in season 7.

 

[iShower4free]

I forgot to start my original post saying that I do think the group dynamic was better in Angel then the Scoobies. Angel wasn't the defined leader at all times, they all knew he was and he did a lot of stuff on his own decisions, but a lot of what they did was a group decision. Even how Angel worked under Wesley, he was the leader, but he didn't grab leadership and demand it the way Buffy chose to do in season 7.

I agree completely with that 😀

 

[tec]

This is a quote from [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] in a previous thread that I think really sums up the point I'm trying to get across here:
I've thought about this a lot and while I think it is completely obvious when you look for it, I haven't decided why there is such a difference. What I edge towards is that there is an element of the Owen Effect with the Scoobies. At the beginning they got swept away with the whole slaying thing and it became their lives. And while they showed incredible courage and fortitude in that decision they also had no idea what they were really doing. As the reality of slaying began to reveal itself and make it known to their lives, when slaying started to cost them (and I think that begins with Angelus killing Miss Calendar) they realise the price they pay for being Buffy's ally and resentments set in and walls started going up. Where as with the Fang Gang they all chose each other. They chose the fight. They are so much more forgiving and understanding of each other. They are so much more welcoming to outsiders. They will take anyone in, they will give them a home, they'll be your family. After all, they help the helpless. That shows in how they treat each other. Even Spike, who was forever an outsider among the Scoobies, found a home and a place to be with the AI Team. I can't help but think the reason that is is because every person on the AI Team knew, personally, what it meant to not belong to anything. They knew loneliness. The knew isolation. Buffy also knew that, but the core Scoobies didn't. Xander and Willow had belonged to each other since forever, they found other people to belong to that had nothing to do with slaying. Even Giles had that with Olivia. In the later seasons, Buffy was severely lacking in that.



This really made sense to me.

I dont agree Willow knew what she was doing when she made the dession to stay at Buffys side and help fight evil and to help people. Wes was a bum and a bummbling moron when he first joined Angel group granted he got better but not by much

The fang gang are second string when it comes down to it

Dictator/Leader Buffy who ends up saveing the world
Or Angel who ends up working for a evil law firm and sending LA to hell? who would you work for?

 

[iShower4free]

I dont agree Willow knew what she was doing when she made the dession to stay at Buffys side and help fight evil and to help people. Wes was a bum and a bummbling moron when he first joined Angel group granted he got better but not by much

The fang gang are second string when it comes down to it

Dictator/Leader Buffy who ends up saveing the world
Or Angel who ends up working for a evil law firm and sending LA to hell? who would you work for?

Buffy couldn't have saved the world without Angel taking the job at WR&H though, so whatever happened afterwards we have to think that him going to work for the evil law firm was the right thing to do.

 

[Robb Stark]

I dont agree Willow knew what she was doing when she made the dession to stay at Buffys side and help fight evil and to help people. Wes was a bum and a bummbling moron when he first joined Angel group granted he got better but not by much

The fang gang are second string when it comes down to it

Dictator/Leader Buffy who ends up saveing the world
Or Angel who ends up working for a evil law firm and sending LA to hell? who would you work for?

I think you're really missing the point. This isn't about who's more capable at fighting evil (although clearly, they're both pretty adept at it. Angel and his squad have averted their fair share of apocalyptic events as well). Buffy is more powerful than Angel and Willow probably has more raw power than anyone in the entire Buffyverse (well, outside of Illyria anyways). That's not the topic. It's about which has the better group dynamic. Which group treats one another better.

Look at how splintered the Scooby core is by the end of S7. Buffy and Giles are barely on speaking terms (and we see the fallout of that at the beginning of S8. They aren't even talking at all by that point). The only one Buffy is really connecting with anymore is Spike, and that certainly wasn't the case in the early seasons. Anya is almost completely cut off from everyone. The only one who's really holding them all together is Xander (and, oddly, Andrew). By the end Buffy is almost totally disconnected from everyone.

Again, this isn't about competence at fighting evil or who has better characters (although personally, I think the Angel characters are better than their BTVS counterparts, but that's just opinion). Wes may have been dorky at the beginning of Angel, but he always related well with Angel, Cordy, Gunn, Lorne and especially Fred. After he's booted out in S3 he earns the trust of the group back (as opposed to the Scoobies, who so often just ignore their internal problems until it's too late. Willow is a perfect case in point of that in S6) and they forgive him.

I think [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] said it really well: Who would you rather be friends with? Which team would you rather be on? Knowing how both series' go, I'd much rather be friends with Angel's team. I think they're "better" friends. In that sense, in my books, the Scoobies are the ones who are second string.

---------- Post added at 10:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 PM ----------

Buffy couldn't have saved the world without Angel taking the job at WR&H though, so whatever happened afterwards we have to think that him going to work for the evil law firm was the right thing to do.

I totally forgot about this, and it's true. Without Angel taking the job at Wolfram & Hart, Buffy and Spike never get the amulet, the ubervamps overrun them (there's no disputing that. There were thousands of them) and Buffy and all the Scoobies die. And when you think about it, Buffy doesn't save the world in S7. Spike does. And that only happens because Angel shows up. Really, Buffy didn't have much to do with the actual execution of the plan to defeat The First.