Did anyone feel like Buffy was out of line in "Sanctuary?"

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I can understand why she was angry at Faith and why she was upset over Angel helping her, but she did act kind of bratty like when she threw Riley in Angel's face and stuff...

It might be sympathy for the devil, but I've always found redemption stories like Faith's to be really touching. The guilt she must feel for all the people she killed and hospitalized and for nearly causing an apocalypse with the Mayor, etc. must be horrible on her soul. I like to think that a soul can always be saved regardless of how far It has strayed. In real life, there have been people who did attrocious things like former Nazis and former Islamic terrorists in recent years, etc. who have expressed extreme remorse for the things they did. Maybe I'm just a sucker for redemption stories.

Do you think Buffy was out of line for how she acted in this episode?
 
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I agree, btw. I'm a sucker for redemption arcs, myself :)
I think that the green monster was alive and well inside of her, added on to the issues she's had with Faith practically the whole time they've known each other. Out of line? Absolutely. Understandable? Also a big yes to that.

The one that gets me in that episode, is her hurt look when Angel hits her. Dude, you hit harder than him and you hit him first. Always annoys me.
 
Well to be fair Buffy had pretty good reason to be unforgiving toward Faith while Angel had pretty good reason to be sympathetic. Angel sees so much of himself in Faith. Faith's desperate attempt to have Angel kill her is reminiscent of Angel's attempted suicide in Amends. And he certainly knows what it's like to have innocent blood on your hands. He also knows how sick she looked when torturing Wesley, and he would obviously recall his torture of Giles. Most importantly, he sees someone who clearly needs someone to guide her on the path to redemption. Whistler and Doyle were to Angel as how he must be to her.
Meanwhile, Buffy sees a girl who just kidnapped her mom, hijacked her body, and screwed her boyfriend.
So Buffy has every right to be mad at Angel for protecting her. And she is allowed to tell Angel about Riley. I'm not sure why but it leads to that glorious confrontation in the Yoko Factor where Riley looks really stupid and Angel is mocking him. So I allow it.
 
I think that the green monster was alive and well inside of her, added on to the issues she's had with Faith practically the whole time they've known each other. Out of line? Absolutely. Understandable? Also a big yes to that.

The one that gets me in that episode, is her hurt look when Angel hits her. Dude, you hit harder than him and you hit him first. Always annoys me.

There's always the real life double standard that women can hit men and get away with it but if a man hits a woman back once (even in self defense), he's suddenly the villain and she's the innocent victim.

Its very common, even in popular culture to portray women beating up on men as a positive and empowering thing with people shouting "YOU GO GIRL!!" or "HE MUSTVE DESERVED IT!!!" but if a guy beats up on a woman, even just in self defense, people get all emotional and go crazy over it.

Even statistically, they say that like almost seventy five percent of domestic violence cases are initiated by the woman and the guy finally hits her back after taking it from her for God knows how long, but as soon as he strikes back, he's hauled off to jail. The man is always seen as the villain, even when he's the victim.
 
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There's always the real life double standard that women can hit men and get away with it but if a guy hits a girl back once (even in self defense), he's suddenly the villain and she's the innocent victim.

Its very common, even in popular culture to portray women beating up on men as a positive and empowering thing with people shouting "YOU GO GIRL!!" or "HE MUSTVE DESERVED IT!!!" but if a guy beats up on a woman, even just in self defense, people get all emotional and go crazy over it.

Even statistically, they say that like almost seventy five percent of domestic violence cases are initiated by the woman and the guy finally hits her back after taking it from her for God knows how long, but as soon as he strikes back, he's hauled off to jail. The man is always seen as the villain, even when he's the victim.
Exactly. One of my least favorite double standards, can't take it. A buddy of mine once got beaten on by his ex, for the most ridiculous (jealous) reasons, he snapped and slapped her open-palmed once and he was forever the bad guy in that re-telling. Despite coming out of it with actual bruises, whereas her face was clean and unmarred. Ugh 😡
 
Though some may see the double standard as a means of power and even revenge, I see it rooted in disrespect for women, that our anger and power is nothing compared to that of a man (like we're little children)...even if at least some feminist factions capitalize upon and exploit it as much as they can.

My mom attacked my dad a lot. Dad was no saint, but Mom was both more violent and more cruel in other ways. But at least she never acted wounded like Buffy did when Dad hit her back (and she's not even a Slayer), nor did she take advantage of the laws as they were (I have some ideas as to why not), at least not until the divorce. She had more pride than that, and I don't mean in that she just didn't want others to feel sorry for her (though she'd prefer your hatred to your pity).

During the divorce, my mom's second lawyer was part of some feminist group, and they (it wasn't just Mom's lawyer, but a couple of others from their specific organization) also tried to get me to lie on the stand. I did say I'd tell the truth, that is just as bad (and no worse) that Dad was, but at the same time how bad (no worse, no better) that Mom was (and I also wanted to live with my grandmother who was willing to take me, and who I was staying with at the time already). So they made up some BS of me being "too traumatized" and assigned some "court advocate" to speak on my behalf (I never even met this "court advocate," I only heard of her) I don't know which I hate more, that feminist lawyer, or Dad's lawyer for being too incompetent to get in touch with me and then getting me on the stand to rebuke that "court advocate" speaking lies in my name.

I'm glad I met some better feminists after that because my first impression left me with hatred for modern feminists, especially as they knowingly and willfully had me placed with an abusive mother (and I believe they also tried to manipulate Dad into killing me and Mom both and nearly succeeded, in which case they could then use our being sacrificed for their cause to add to the statistics on why their faction deserved more political power).
 
So Buffy has every right to be mad at Angel for protecting her. And she is allowed to tell Angel about Riley.

She didn't need to tell him in quite that way. She did that out of spite and anger. But that also shows me the viewer how over Angel Buffy is not. She is hurt and lashes out. We see that a lot with Buffy throughout the show.

------

Joss wanted Buffy to feel out of place and wrong in this episode. He has said that this was to show fans how Angel was its own show and different from Buffy. The whole "this is my city" "you don't know me" "we don't live in each other's worlds" even though I mean it's been less than a year so really it was over the top and unnecessary.

With some minor adjustments I could have really bought into this episode. It wasn't necessary for Buffy to come storming in blaming Angel, hitting him, threatening to kill faith, and then telling him he didn't trust her (and I mean what the fack did Angel do to make him untrustworthy all of the hot sudden?)

Buffy has every right to be mad at Faith she doesn't have a right to be mad at Angel. If they are trying to show Buffy jealous of Angel hugging Faith this is the overreaction to end all overreactions.

I wish Angel had not hit Buffy. Not because of some stupid notion that men shouldn't hit girls because I get Buffy is a slayer and this is not your typical dynamic. I wish he had not hit her because it was unlike him to do so. He could have grabbed her, restrained her, pulled her aside but I find it hard to believe Angel would hit her even after she punched him unless after trying other means to deflect her attacks she persisted. That feels out of character for him. And Buffy certainly should not have hit him, that goes without saying. But this again is an example of how this episode took everything from what should have been a level 9 to a level 15. And it all came out looking pretty outrageous, especially Buffy.

The Angel goes over in Yoko and apologizes? When Buffy should be apologizing to HIM especially for hittin him and the whole cringe worthy "murder club" comment. But at least we get some Angel kicking Riley's in ass in Yoko so I'll forgive them on this.
 
The Angel goes over in Yoko and apologizes? When Buffy should be apologizing to HIM especially for hittin him and the whole cringe worthy "murder club" comment.
Well that's how tv relationships work. The girl does something wrong, blames the guy, the guy apologizes and they reconcile. 🙂
Anyway I have a problem where I always take Buffy's side but I do think she had reason to suspect Angel not because of anything Angel had done but because of what Faith did with Riley. She can be absolutely positive that Angel would never betray her but that doesn't change anything. Jealousy beats reason. Every. Time.
 
Well that's how tv relationships work. The girl does something wrong, blames the guy, the guy apologizes and they reconcile. 🙂
Anyway I have a problem where I always take Buffy's side but I do think she had reason to suspect Angel not because of anything Angel had done but because of what Faith did with Riley. She can be absolutely positive that Angel would never betray her but that doesn't change anything. Jealousy beats reason. Every. Time.

I should say that as someone who has experienced that type of blinding illogical jealousy I sympathize with Buffy seeing the situation and freaking. Especially when not just what happened with Riley occurred but also when she was already insecure about Faith and Angel from Season 3. Buffy has some major insecurity issues in general. What I don't think was necessary was the absolute blow out of a reaction including the punching.
 
I should say that as someone who has experienced that type of blinding illogical jealousy I sympathize with Buffy seeing the situation and freaking. Especially when not just what happened with Riley occurred but also when she was already insecure about Faith and Angel from Season 3. Buffy has some major insecurity issues in general. What I don't think was necessary was the absolute blow out of a reaction including the punching.
Well it's Buffy and Angel so you can't just have a regular couple fight. You have to top situations like one killing the other, the same one stopping the other from killing themselves, the one who killed the other leaving the city to forget about the one she killed, the one who died fleeing to the same city to protect the one who killed him... anyway point is their arguments need more flare than others. Seriously though I see no problem with it getting physical, they are both warriors and often have to solve their problems with fighting. It's like an impulse. A punch by Buffy is like a scolding from anyone else.
 
Though some may see the double standard as a means of power and even revenge, I see it rooted in disrespect for women, that our anger and power is nothing compared to that of a man (like we're little children)...even if at least some feminist factions capitalize upon and exploit it as much as they can.

My mom attacked my dad a lot. Dad was no saint, but Mom was both more violent and more cruel in other ways. But at least she never acted wounded like Buffy did when Dad hit her back (and she's not even a Slayer), nor did she take advantage of the laws as they were (I have some ideas as to why not), at least not until the divorce. She had more pride than that, and I don't mean in that she just didn't want others to feel sorry for her (though she'd prefer your hatred to your pity).

During the divorce, my mom's second lawyer was part of some feminist group, and they (it wasn't just Mom's lawyer, but a couple of others from their specific organization) also tried to get me to lie on the stand. I did say I'd tell the truth, that is just as bad (and no worse) that Dad was, but at the same time how bad (no worse, no better) that Mom was (and I also wanted to live with my grandmother who was willing to take me, and who I was staying with at the time already). So they made up some BS of me being "too traumatized" and assigned some "court advocate" to speak on my behalf (I never even met this "court advocate," I only heard of her) I don't know which I hate more, that feminist lawyer, or Dad's lawyer for being too incompetent to get in touch with me and then getting me on the stand to rebuke that "court advocate" speaking lies in my name.

I'm glad I met some better feminists after that because my first impression left me with hatred for modern feminists, especially as they knowingly and willfully had me placed with an abusive mother (and I believe they also tried to manipulate Dad into killing me and Mom both and nearly succeeded, in which case they could then use our being sacrificed for their cause to add to the statistics on why their faction deserved more political power).

Divorce is another issue entirely. It's absolutely disgusting how a lot of family courts treat fathers going through a divorce. I have a cousin going through one right now and he married the most spoiled rotten entitled b**** you can ever imagine who sits on her a** all day, living off the child support and alimony she steals from him every month. He has a big paycheck and she gets like almost three thousand a month from him in child support each month. WHAT THE F*** DOES ANYONE NEED THREE THOUSAND A MONTH TO RAISE TWO KIDS FOR???????? At most, it only costs like three or four hundred bucks a month to raise kids and if half of it is supposed to be the mother's expenses, why aren't they making her get a job?????? It's so ridiculous that you could just bang your head against a wall.

She has literally played every dirty trick in the book and has tried so desperately to alienate their kids from him and everything and the court has generally ruled in her favor. It makes me so sick. He has never once been abusive to her or their kids either. Actually, he spoiled her rotten and gave he everything she wanted and took her on cruises and everything and she's never been anything but a gold digger. People don't realize how scandalous and corrupt child support is. A lot of men commit suicide because of it.

It's disgusting that the law let's women like my cousin's former wife do this kinda stuff. She's even taken his house that he payed for (that she didn't contribute a dime to) and she totally lives off his money. People need to start talking about this kind of thing more because it's a huge epidemic in America. Fathers usually are NOT treated fairly by the law and courts during a divorce. It's disgusting. It's extortion and it's sickening.
 
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who sits on her a** all day, living off the child support and alimony she steals from him every month.

Yes, it does need to be addressed. And people using child support should, at the very least, produce receipts to show how they use it from time to time. 😡

My mom didn't get alimony, but she did win the house...and his beloved Mustang (the kind some people enter into parades and shows, and perhaps the one thing he truly loved), which Mom made no secret from us that she did out of spite because she knew it would sting. It wouldn't surprise me if her feminist lawyer didn't suggest it as they gave her other really bad advice to provoke Dad into attacking us, including the one time I was sure he was going to kill me and Mom both in a drunk rage...and might've had he been less drunk & stupid at the time, and had the neighbors not called the police (while I hid under my bed cowering and crying in which no one ever came for me). That said, the law typically ignored the restraining order against him (to my knowledge that was the only time the cops showed up fast and took him to jail, probably more for public drunkenness as well as assault), but it would bite him in the butt in divorce court. (But using us like that is evil, it's promoting an agenda while knowingly harming innocents to do so, which is why I call those specific feminists evil, and don't doubt that they're capable of worse--and I'd shared in detail how abusive Mom was but that didn't make a difference, so it was evil of them to put me into an abusive home in the name of feminist politics--apparently designed more for women rather than underage girls.)

I saw very little of the child support, and most was incidental (like paper products Mom got for herself, or getting the food Mom got for herself, though some of that came from welfare). Most of it went to her addictions, though I stole some of her brandy at time to trade with friends for food (unfortunately, no one was willing to trade for the Virginia Slims cigarettes she also got with child support). And I got into the habit of going to stores and the mall when they were likely to have free samples for food, though I had to be careful as they learned to guard against me (as it wasn't about sampling for me, it was about survival).

And then I ran away from home for about 6 months, before the school year ended and returning after the new school year began. She never asked what happened to me or why I came back. I, in turn, was shocked that no one knew or cared. Shocked, and extremely saddened...I know I ran away, but that HURT. Though Mom wasn't being completely honest which I'd find out when I was almost 22.

I was sent back to school and put through a bunch of tests as they weren't sure what to do with me. They knew I'd ran away, and I also learned that Mom had said I'd gone back to Granny's (hundreds of miles away), but they didn't care, and they were hostile to me. This is only part of the reason why I displayed extreme cynicism toward CPS in another BB thread: supposedly abuse against me was revealed in court, and later I supposedly transferred to another school without any school records requested, and when I come back and say what really happened, there are still no reports and no interviews by CPS.

I ran away a second time and didn't return (for a visit) until I was almost 22, and this is when I compared notes with others (and was also the first time I talked to Dad since the child custody hearings began back when I was 14), and he was mad to learn I was gone for so long while he was paying child support. Yeah, too bad he didn't try to have any contact with me, then he could've known. He didn't care about me, why should I care about him? (But still, Mom should not have gotten away with the crap she did, either.)

Though I shouldn't be too harsh on him. Granny called Mom while I was on the streets and Mom just told Granny that I didn't want to speak with her. The courts gave Mom custody of me ("best interest of the child" my ass), and for some reason believed it. After I returned from my first stint as a runaway, I'd asked about Granny and heard she didn't want to talk to me and would be furious over what I did, and I believed her as well. Granny and I both felt stupid once we compared notes when I was an adult and realized how Mom played us both...and we both should've known better (I can't even excuse myself for being a child at the time then, that was inexcusably stupid on my part).

Though if Mom lost her child support when I ran away, that would be fine by me...though then Mom would try to get me back which made my own position even more precarious (for all the flaws of being a runaway, I still found it preferable to the alternative, at least the second time I ran). I was 17 when I overheard 2 women in a convenience store talking. As best I recall, one woman had just gotten her child support check and wanted to use it somehow with the cashier to buy a case of beer and get change back. Both women commiserated on how little responsibility men had in rearing of children, ignoring that this was about a case of beer! I was so filled with rage that I wanted to destroy the beer, but I knew that would not only draw police attention to me which could get me sent back to Texas, but that the mom would take it out on her children...her victims.

In retrospect, I wish I'd made a deal with Dad to push really hard to live with him during the child custody hearings in exchange for him letting me stay with Granny later. I know he'd accept that deal as it would get him out of paying child support (he was still out of house and car, though, but it's something), and that would put me into a home that was actually loving and stable rather than abusive and exploitative. But I was only 14 with no real understanding of the legal system for that to occur to me. Pity that it didn't occur to Granny, Dad, or Dad's family as my life would've been very different and I'd have been spared some serious traumatic events.

I hate how all that is still going on for children today. 🙁
 
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I wish he had not hit her because it was unlike him to do so. He could have grabbed her, restrained her, pulled her aside but I find it hard to believe Angel would hit her even after she punched him unless after trying other means to deflect her attacks she persisted. That feels out of character for him. And Buffy certainly should not have hit him, that goes without saying. But this again is an example of how this episode took everything from what should have been a level 9 to a level 15. And it all came out looking pretty outrageous, especially Buffy.
Funny if you go to the thread I linked to, some people actually complained about the fact that Angel grabbed her arm to stop her from going after Faith. That was already too much for some people and I guess justified Angel getting punched in the face. And you want Angel to grab and restrain Buffy? Oy vey. How much more do you want Angel to do, seriously? He already tried talking to her, she shut him down. She didn't want to hear what he had to say, too busy hurling accusations at him (murderer club...glass houses Buffy). He then grabbed her arm when she went to go after Faith which earned him the first punch to the face. The second punch Buffy was throwing his way was for NO reason and WITHOUT any sort of provocation. Angel reacted reflexively, that's easy to see by his reaction after the hit. And that's usually what people do. Someone throws a punch your way, you block and maybe hit back too. I personally don't see why Angel should let himself be pummeled by Buffy. He has the freaking right to defend himself. Nevermind that Buffy is breaking her own rules in the episode, rules that she laid out in IWRY.
 
Yes, it does need to be addressed. And people using child support should, at the very least, produce receipts to show how they use it from time to time. 😡

My mom didn't get alimony, but she did win the house...and his beloved Mustang (the kind some people enter into parades and shows, and perhaps the one thing he truly loved), which Mom made no secret from us that she did out of spite because she knew it would sting. It wouldn't surprise me if her feminist lawyer didn't suggest it as they gave her other really bad advice to provoke Dad into attacking us, including the one time I was sure he was going to kill me and Mom both in a drunk rage...and might've had he been less drunk & stupid at the time, and had the neighbors not called the police (while I hid under my bed cowering and crying in which no one ever came for me). That said, the law typically ignored the restraining order against him (to my knowledge that was the only time the cops showed up fast and took him to jail, probably more for public drunkenness as well as assault), but it would bite him in the butt in divorce court. (But using us like that is evil, it's promoting an agenda while knowingly harming innocents to do so, which is why I call those specific feminists evil, and don't doubt that they're capable of worse--and I'd shared in detail how abusive Mom was but that didn't make a difference, so it was evil of them to put me into an abusive home in the name of feminist politics--apparently designed more for women rather than underage girls.)

I saw very little of the child support, and most was incidental (like paper products Mom got for herself, or getting the food Mom got for herself, though some of that came from welfare). Most of it went to her addictions, though I stole some of her brandy at time to trade with friends for food (unfortunately, no one was willing to trade for the Virginia Slims cigarettes she also got with child support). And I got into the habit of going to stores and the mall when they were likely to have free samples for food, though I had to be careful as they learned to guard against me (as it wasn't about sampling for me, it was about survival).

And then I ran away from home for about 6 months, before the school year ended and returning after the new school year began. She never asked what happened to me or why I came back. I, in turn, was shocked that no one knew or cared. Shocked, and extremely saddened...I know I ran away, but that HURT. Though Mom wasn't being completely honest which I'd find out when I was almost 22.

I was sent back to school and put through a bunch of tests as they weren't sure what to do with me. They knew I'd ran away, and I also learned that Mom had said I'd gone back to Granny's (hundreds of miles away), but they didn't care, and they were hostile to me. This is only part of the reason why I displayed extreme cynicism toward CPS in another BB thread: supposedly abuse against me was revealed in court, and later I supposedly transferred to another school without any school records requested, and when I come back and say what really happened, there are still no reports and no interviews by CPS.

I ran away a second time and didn't return (for a visit) until I was almost 22, and this is when I compared notes with others (and was also the first time I talked to Dad since the child custody hearings began back when I was 14), and he was mad to learn I was gone for so long while he was paying child support. Yeah, too bad he didn't try to have any contact with me, then he could've known. He didn't care about me, why should I care about him? (But still, Mom should not have gotten away with the crap she did, either.)

Though I shouldn't be too harsh on him. Granny called Mom while I was on the streets and Mom just told Granny that I didn't want to speak with her. The courts gave Mom custody of me ("best interest of the child" my ass), and for some reason believed it. After I returned from my first stint as a runaway, I'd asked about Granny and heard she didn't want to talk to me and would be furious over what I did, and I believed her as well. Granny and I both felt stupid once we compared notes when I was an adult and realized how Mom played us both...and we both should've known better (I can't even excuse myself for being a child at the time then, that was inexcusably stupid on my part).

Though if Mom lost her child support when I ran away, that would be fine by me...though then Mom would try to get me back which made my own position even more precarious (for all the flaws of being a runaway, I still found it preferable to the alternative, at least the second time I ran). I was 17 when I overheard 2 women in a convenience store talking. As best I recall, one woman had just gotten her child support check and wanted to use it somehow with the cashier to buy a case of beer and get change back. Both women commiserated on how little responsibility men had in rearing of children, ignoring that this was about a case of beer! I was so filled with rage that I wanted to destroy the beer, but I knew that would not only draw police attention to me which could get me sent back to Texas, but that the mom would take it out on her children...her victims.

In retrospect, I wish I'd made a deal with Dad to push really hard to live with him during the child custody hearings in exchange for him letting me stay with Granny later. I know he'd accept that deal as it would get him out of paying child support (he was still out of house and car, though, but it's something), and that would put me into a home that was actually loving and stable rather than abusive and exploitative. But I was only 14 with no real understanding of the legal system for that to occur to me. Pity that it didn't occur to Granny, Dad, or Dad's family as my life would've been very different and I'd have been spared some serious traumatic events.

I hate how all that is still going on for children today. 🙁

Family law is so sickening. The attorneys and the courts deliberately tear apart families and alienate children from their fathers so the state can make money. Child support is a multi billion dollar industry for every individual state. It's sickening.

What happened to making vows and keeping them? Marriage isn't even special anymore. When you allow someone to just file for divorce over any little thing and then wreck the other person's life financially and bleed them dry and take everything from them, it's ****ing disgusting.

After seeing my cousin's divorce, it's really made me rethink parental alienation. Very few fathers will actually walk out on their kids. I think a lot of times today when teenagers whine that their dad "wasn't there for them" or whatever, it's easy to blame the dad, but realistically, I think more often than not, it goes back to the mother. With the way the laws are and how these family courts enforce them, it deliberately alienates men from their children while the mothers and the government are laughing all the way to bank. It's disgusting. All child support and divorce courts do is deliberately create broken families.
 
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