Did Buffy need the intervention from the entire group?

[Joshua]

Was the gang, Slayers, Faith etc wrong in giving Buffy an intervention in "Empty Places"? Or were they right, was Buffy leading them into another dangerous disaster?

 

[white avenger]

It could be argued that they were right to question Buffy's plan, but it should not have been in front of the Potentials. It could also be argued that Buffy made a major mistake in not taking the Scoobies and Faith someplace private to discuss her plans and work out some strategy before just dumping it on them in the living room just when Xander had returned from the hospital. Bad decisions all around, and mistakes made by all.

But, were the Scoobies right to openly rebel against Buffy's authority, especially in front of what Anya so aptly described as the "cannon fodder?" Not no, but HELL NO! They were, in effect, the general staff of an army's commander, and their first duty. above and beyond all else, was to support their commander. Armies aren't run by committee, and soldiers don't get to vote on whether or not they go into harm's way. And, make no mistake about the facts: Buffy was the recognized commander (at least, as long as she was the only one taking the risks and feeling the pain) and everyone else who lived under her roof and enjoyed her protection were her army. Any time that they couldn't abide with those two simple facts, they were free to go and find somewhere else to live. But no one, not even Dawn, had the right to evict her from her own home.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I think it could all have worked out smother, but it was a room full with people with issues, and it all just blew up. It was a very realistic situation, where a bunch of scared frustrated people didn't like to idea of seemingly repeating a huge misstake. I think there was a lot of good point and bad points from both sides, and that it could all have worked out better, without anyone having to be thrown out.

Buffy turned out to be right. The way she usually is. But she had just made a huge misstake, and I understand why everyone felt like Buffy needed to calm down, even the ones who had been with her for years.

It could be argued that they were right to question Buffy's plan, but it should not have been in front of the Potentials. It could also be argued that Buffy made a major mistake in not taking the Scoobies and Faith someplace private to discuss her plans and work out some strategy before just dumping it on them in the living room just when Xander had returned from the hospital. Bad decisions all around, and mistakes made by all.

Agreed.

But, were the Scoobies right to openly rebel against Buffy's authority, especially in front of what Anya so aptly described as the "cannon fodder?" Not no, but HELL NO! They were, in effect, the general staff of an army's commander, and their first duty. above and beyond all else, was to support their commander. Armies aren't run by committee, and soldiers don't get to vote on whether or not they go into harm's way. And, make no mistake about the facts: Buffy was the recognized commander (at least, as long as she was the only one taking the risks and feeling the pain) and everyone else who lived under her roof and enjoyed her protection were her army. Any time that they couldn't abide with those two simple facts, they were free to go and find somewhere else to live. But no one, not even Dawn, had the right to evict her from her own home.

This, I disagree with. They weren't an "army" army. They were a bunch of friends and newly added allies, who had army-like qualities, but didn't have anywhere near a strict hierarchy as you describe. They never signed any contracts saying they had a serv, never agreed that they couldn't argue with the leader.

I think Buffy did consider herself similar to a military leader though. Not as strict as you describe, but she had to put herself in a similar roll. It's just that I don't think the others agreed on that. They needed a leader, and Buffy had taken charge. But they never agreed to give up their free will, or right to complain. And I think that's the worst misstake Buffy did in that scene, to act as if her way if leading was obvious and the only way, to act like a general towards friends who saw her mainly as someone they worked with, not for.

 

[BuffyElevated]

It could be argued that they were right to question Buffy's plan, but it should not have been in front of the Potentials. It could also be argued that Buffy made a major mistake in not taking the Scoobies and Faith someplace private to discuss her plans and work out some strategy before just dumping it on them in the living room just when Xander had returned from the hospital. Bad decisions all around, and mistakes made by all.

But, were the Scoobies right to openly rebel against Buffy's authority, especially in front of what Anya so aptly described as the "cannon fodder?" Not no, but HELL NO! They were, in effect, the general staff of an army's commander, and their first duty. above and beyond all else, was to support their commander. Armies aren't run by committee, and soldiers don't get to vote on whether or not they go into harm's way. And, make no mistake about the facts: Buffy was the recognized commander (at least, as long as she was the only one taking the risks and feeling the pain) and everyone else who lived under her roof and enjoyed her protection were her army. Any time that they couldn't abide with those two simple facts, they were free to go and find somewhere else to live. But no one, not even Dawn, had the right to evict her from her own home.

I definitely agree. I do think they were right to question her, and had every right to talk to her about it in private and say so. But to do it openly in front of the Potentials, and blindside her like that? No. That was definitely not right, and I felt for Buffy as much as I agreed with the others that Buffy was acting a little irresponsibly. It was a horrible situation... It was one of those times where there was no right or wrong answer as far as whether Buffy was completely in the right or wrong to act the way she had been, because she had responsibilities as the Slayer, but also as a friend and sister. But for all of them to jump her like that was just cruel and totally uncalled for.

 

[Xin Rong]

Buffy turned out to be right. The way she usually is. But she had just made a huge misstake, and I understand why everyone felt like Buffy needed to calm down, even the ones who had been with her for years.

.

Buffy may have been right about their being something at the vineyard, but no one said she was wrong, they just argued against her strategy... which in the end they were right.

If Buffy had had her way then Caleb would have no doubt managed to pick off a few more potentials as they tried to find the scythe. Buffy had become an arrogant dictator, who didn't think things through, she was unpractised at being a 'general' and had become too full of herself, although understandable, it is not excusable and she needed bringing back down to size.

 

[white avenger]

They weren't an "army" army. They were a bunch of friends and newly added allies, who had army-like qualities, but didn't have anywhere near a strict hierarchy as you describe. They never signed any contracts saying they had a serv, never agreed that they couldn't argue with the leader.

Call them an army, a mob, or a herd, it doesn't matter. But that "bunch of friends" had been following Buffy for 7 years, and she had been leading them quite well. In an endeavor that literally involved life and death decisions on a daily, if not hourly, basis, she had pulled them through with only one major injury, Xander's left eye. That is a truly phenomenal record. I believe that such a record should earn her a degree of faith and support.

As for the Potentials not being an army, never signing a contract, and never agreeing not to argue with the leader, no, they never raised their hands and took any kind of oath of fealty to Buffy or her cause, any more than she raised her hand and swore any sort of oath to patrol the hellmouth and fight the things that go bump in the night. By being the Slayer, and by being the Potentials, cruel as it might sound, volunteering was never an option. They were drafted. Until the moment when Buffy gave all of those girls the choice as to whether they wanted to become Slayers, as cruel as it might seem, free will never entered into the equation. And even if that weren't the case, by the simple act of seeking and receiving Buffy's support and protection, whether willingly or out of self preservation, the Potentials, by being under her protection, also fell under her authority. Her house, her rules. Quite simple.

And, as I said before, they DID have the option of walking out the door any time that the rules became too harsh or the risk became too great for them. Unfortunately, the risk was far, far greater on the other side of that door than it was, all safe and snug, there inside. And it wasn't that they didn't accept the fact that they had to have a leader, their objection was that they didn't want a leader who expected and required them to take a small portion of the exact same risk that she had been taking on their behalf ever since they arrived in Sunnydale. Then, lo and behold, their new leader proceeded to almost immediately lead them out on a mission that proved to be even more of a disaster than the battle at the vineyard had been. And, of course, they had no choice but to oust her just like they did Buffy. Okay, she was laid up in bed, barely able to walk, so there might have been some logic there, or at least there would have been if they had then elected Giles, Willow, or Xander as their new leader. They were, after all, not just the obvious choices, they were the ONLY choices left.

So why, instead of doing that, did they decide to accept Buffy as their leader once more? Could it have possibly been that, at last, the Potentials and the Scoobies gotten some small inkling of what being the leader involves, and none of them wanted any part of it? Could it possibly have been that, with the undeniable evidence of the Scythe in her possession, they finally had to accept the fact that Buffy had, after all, been right all along about the vineyard and its importance? (Just as she was right all along about trusting and believing in Spike, but that is only valid here by way of pointing out that Buffy was good enough at her job, after been doing it for seven years, to assess the facts and, when necessary, trust her instincts to make the hard decisions, and to make them accurately)

Let me say once more, I am most certainly not trying to say that Buffy didn't make her share of mistakes in this situation. She did. Mistakes were made all around. And the Scoobies were totally within their rights to make their doubts known concerning Buffy's plan. Their choice was wrong, but they were entitled to make it. What they had absolutely no right to do, however, even Dawn, was to throw Buffy out of her own home, or to even suggest that she leave. If they didn't like what was required of them there, they should have left. I can pretty much forgive, or at least accept, all the rest. But not that.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]

You make a lot of good points, but I still can't agree on the "if they wanted to, they could have walked out" and the "her house, her rules" thinking.

Like you say, it was safer inside. They couldn't leave. The Potentials had nowhere to go. They had three options; go out and try to find a way to survive, stay and work with the problems or stay and shut up. And scared people don't go with the bad odds or shut up. They try to survive. From their POV, they were doing just that. They didn't care about who's house it was. They just wanted to live.

And it's not like Giles, Xander, Willow, Anya and Dawn could leave. They wanted to fight with Buffy, against evil (Anya might just have wanted protection, since The First might be after her too, since she sided against it already), as they had all along. I mean, what, Dawn was suppose to just walk out? I mean, sure, Buffy paid the bills, but Dawn lived there too. As did Willow, who I assumed brought some cash in.

They were all stuck with each other. And everyone except the Potentials, Wood and Faith had deep bonds to each other and "the mission". It wasn't about Buffy's house, or rules. It was about surviving and fighting the good fight. I'm not saying they didn't make misstakes, but I completely understand trying to be safe and do the right thing in a situation like that.

Also

And it wasn't that they didn't accept the fact that they had to have a leader, their objection was that they didn't want a leader who expected and required them to take a small portion of the exact same risk that she had been taking on their behalf ever since they arrived in Sunnydale.

I think they simply wanted more to go on before rushing in. It wasn't the risk-taking per see that was the problem(even though I think that was partly it), they just didn't think Buffy's hunch was worth the risk, until they got more proof). We who sat in the sofas watching them could look at the big picture and say "But Buffy's almost always right. Why are they arguing?" but it's understandable that they wanted more to go on. Then when Buffy got hurt and wouldn't listen to the others and it all got out of hand. It's regretable, but understandable.

 

[white avenger]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]


They had three options; go out and try to find a way to survive, stay and work with the problems or stay and shut up. And scared people don't go with the bad odds or shut up. They try to survive. From their POV, they were doing just that. They didn't care about who's house it was. They just wanted to live.

And yet they chose to exercise Option Number Four: Gang up on the home owner and throw HER out into that danger. That's an exact parallel to seizing control of a ship and throwing the captain overboard. Mutiny.

And as for the danger outside the confines of that house, the mutineers consisted of a Slayer, a powerful witch, several other experienced demon fighters, and over a dozen fresh strong young girls, certainly a much more powerful force, better able to survive, than one single Slayer, and yet it is that one lone Slayer who had to leave.

There is no escaping the fact that, for the first time in 7 years, each and every one of her friends betrayed Buffy this season, and the single one who remained constantly on her side and at her back, no questions asked, was the man who had just the season before tried to rape her. Lots of people have complained because they feel that there is too much Buffy/Spike emphasis in this season, and exactly why Joss chose to write it that way, I have no idea. But it remains the fact, and it is no more obvious anywhere than in this single episode.

 

[Willow My Love]

I hated what they did to her in that episode. She didn't turn her back on Xander when he left Anya at the alter. Or on Giles when he left. Or on Anya when she turned back into a demon. or on Willow when she killed people. But she makes a few rash decisions and they completely turn on her, and on top of it all, they throw her out of her own home?! That's completely disgusting of all of them. Question her, sure. Throw her out?! No! I really honestly hated them all for that. Dawn standing up for Buffy after the potential's comment didn't save her anything. They were all incredibly heartless [expletives deleted]s for that.

If they had such a problem with her, they should have talked to her. Y'know, like friends, or people who respect each other do? They showed that they had absolutely no respect for her whatsoever. It was completely disgusting.

Buffy didn't deserve to be treated that way. At all. And just a few episodes after what Xander had said about seeing her heart and how they should all trust her too. I didn't understand that. Why have him gush about her and then demonstrate that he didn't mean any of it? Actions speak louder that words. And the actions from the people who pulled her out of Heaven spoke volumes.

She may have needed a push to get out of the mentality she was in, but what these guys did was so OOC. When someone has a problem, they've always talked about it, like rational adults. But ganging up on someone they love has never been an option. Why did they do it this time? They've faced the apocalypse before. They've faced death before. They've been in high-stress situations before. Why this time do they not trust her? Why this time do they act like this? I don't understand it at all.

All in all, I don't think Buffy deserved what she got. I don't think she needed it.

 

[SpikeAllTheWay]

Like Spike says there is always casualties in war so they are in no position to blame Buffy or even kick her out from her own house. I seriously hate all of them ungrateful bastards at that time.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

She may have needed a push to get out of the mentality she was in, but what these guys did was so OOC. When someone has a problem, they've always talked about it, like rational adults. But ganging up on someone they love has never been an option. Why did they do it this time? They've faced the apocalypse before. They've faced death before. They've been in high-stress situations before. Why this time do they not trust her? Why this time do they act like this? I don't understand it at all.

I think it's understandable(but not ok). Everyone had issues, some of them with Buffy(some of them was simply fear and frustration), and everyone let them out at the same time. Once one had started to complain they all chimed in, saying things they've probably bottled up. I think it was bad of them to do this, but I understand why they were irrational. They were facing their worst enemy yet, had been scared for months, the scoobies didn't feel they could connect with Buffy like during other apocalypses, people died and Xander had lost a eye. If they no one had freaked out, that would have been OOC. They all had different issues with Buffy, and when you combined them all it was a huge attack on Buffy. I don't think everyone wanted it to escalate like that. Many of them just seemed to have one complaint, but then you combine everything...

I'm not saying they should have reacted that way, but I understand why. The Potentials, who had never faced anything like this before, just lost friends. So I understand why they wouldn't trust this stranger, who just got their friends killed, and who seemed to be making another rash descision. Then Buffy's friends didn't side with her, but I don't think that made the Potentials feel better about Buffy.

What really surpises me is how Willow or Dawn didn't stand up for Buffy(can't blame the guy who just lost his eye). I get their issues, but not that they didn't say "Hey, Buffy's usually right". or something to that effect.

 

[Rack]

That scene has always seriously pissed me off (although it does set up Spike's beautiful midnight speech to Buffy, one of my fav. moments ever). Every other person in that room would literally be dead if it's weren't for Buffy. Where's the loyalty? They kick her out and then what does she do? STILL comes back and saves the world. And Faith I love, but come on. She is not the leader Buffy is--she's like the enforcer. Those potentials need to get slapped in the mouth.