Question Did Buffy REALLY love Spike?

Not so sure about the closest 'indicator of love' there. Sure that's not something closer to a thermometer? 😉 I agree there is no objective way with which to measure the quantity of love - there are, however, as you've demonstrated, a gazillion subjective ones.

Just as an observation, I always find the same things amusing with these discussions/debates. For instance, when a Bangel fan says they don't think Buffy was in love with Spike, we are challenged about calling Buffy a liar because she wouldn't use those words if she didn't mean them. However, some people have actually spent some time suggesting that Buffy was telling porkies when she explained her reasons for asking Angel to return to L.A...right.

I should stop browsing these discussions, they make my head spin!

I was just kidding. I guess you could call that comment an indicator of one's sense of humor.

By saying Buffy was not in love with Spike, it means she would have to be lying in 'Chosen'. However, we've followed her character through 7 seasons and we know she's not one for an 'I love you' out of pity.
 
I was just kidding. I guess you could call that comment an indicator of one's sense of humor.

Yup, I was aware of that. Hence the 😉 face.

By saying Buffy was not in love with Spike, it means she would have to be lying in 'Chosen'. However, we've followed her character through 7 seasons and we know she's not one for an 'I love you' out of pity.

This may well be true. I'm fully are of the reasons as to why this is used when debating those who do not believe it/her/whatever. My comment was a mere observation of the fact that for some she would never dare do such a thing as lie to Spike *gasp* but she'll give Angel a load of BS? Which for the most, is done in jest I suppose, but then it is in both camps.
 
zobothehobo agrees: What examples of her trying to force herself to love him do you have? I've never heard that and I was just wondering if you could give examples of how it was forced on her part?

I just don't think personally that Buffy could love Spike after everything he did (and he did do some good things, yes, but none worthy of Buffy's love, and the bad things definitely deserved him a staking) I guess I just can't stand him as a character and having Buffy who is a character I love loving him is just ugh, I can't.

Now however, I think after Riley she just wanted someone to cuddle with and to be close to, or to just have sex with, and Spike was there, at least that's how I feel about it.
 
Yup, I was aware of that. Hence the 😉 face.



This may well be true. I'm fully are of the reasons as to why this is used when debating those who do not believe it/her/whatever. My comment was a mere observation of the fact that for some she would never dare do such a thing as lie to Spike *gasp* but she'll give Angel a load of BS? Which for the most, is done in jest I suppose, but then it is in both camps.

Well, whatever the reason of sending Angel away, whether it's what she said or what someone reads into it, it doesn't negate the fact that she loves him. So the outcome of that discussion isn't as relevant or important from a shipping angle like it is with the last Spuffy scene. And unlike Spike, he wasn't exactly minutes away from dying in a glorious act of redemption when they were talking. Even Joss thinks Angel is 'petty' here, so I'd say the opinions you're referring to are at least somewhat valid.

Also, it isn't about 'daring to do such a thing' to Spike in particular, it applies to what she would do in general, when it comes to any character. To say that she's lying in 'Chosen', is a huge discredit to her character and basically OOC.
 
I just don't think personally that Buffy could love Spike after everything he did (and he did do some good things, yes, but none worthy of Buffy's love, and the bad things definitely deserved him a staking) I guess I just can't stand him as a character and having Buffy who is a character I love loving him is just ugh, I can't.

Now however, I think after Riley she just wanted someone to cuddle with and to be close to, or to just have sex with, and Spike was there, at least that's how I feel about it.

So basically saying Buffy tried to force herself to love Spike is just something you like to believe not actually something you discerned from the text? Or it's your way of acknowledging the things in season 7 that look like love but saying "it looks like love, but it's not. It's pretend forced love" although forced love looks different from real love (which is what it was, real love). Sorry for the way this post sounds, it's just I get kind of annoyed with people saying "Buffy didn't love Spike because she couldn't love Spike" ignoring the fact that throughout season 7 it's made abundantly clear by her actions she did indeed love him. I get even more annoyed when someone tries to take those actions that make it abundantly clear she loved Spike and work them into a "it's fake love" theory. I'd rather you ignore them all together.

And I think you're WAY off base with the after Riley thing. Especially since season 7 is two years after Riley and right after Riley she still hated Spike, then in Intervention things changed because he proved he was a decent guy, then in season 6 Spuffy was ANYTHING but being the kind of relationship that would be "just wanting someone to cuddle with and be close to." And season 7 wasn't anything like that either. Riley was that guy for her after Angel. Spike wasn't that guy after Riley.
 
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Nikita
[No message]
So basically saying Buffy tried to force herself to love Spike is just something you like to believe not actually something you discerned from the text? Or it's your way of acknowledging the things in season 7 that look like love but saying "it looks like love, but it's not. It's pretend forced love" although forced love looks different from real love (which is what it was, real love). Sorry for the way this post sounds, it's just I get kind of annoyed with people saying "Buffy didn't love Spike because she couldn't love Spike" ignoring the fact that throughout season 7 it's made abundantly clear by her actions she did indeed love him. I get even more annoyed when someone tries to take those actions that make it abundantly clear she loved Spike and work them into a "it's fake love" theory. I'd rather you ignore them all together.

And I think you're WAY off base with the after Riley thing. Especially since season 7 is two years after Riley and right after Riley she still hated Spike, then in Intervention things changed because he proved he was a decent guy, then in season 6 Spuffy was ANYTHING but being the kind of relationship that would be "just wanting someone to cuddle with and be close to." And season 7 wasn't anything like that either. Riley was that guy for her after Angel. Spike wasn't that guy after Riley.

Fail rep post. You know I love you Zoe so I won't continue arguing about this and we can just agree to disagree about the character of Spike and the ships of Bangel and Spuffy? Agreed? 😛
 
Z
zobothehobo
Agreed. and when I saw that rep on my UserCP I was like "what? She agrees with me? How?" haha
One can assume (like I do) that she didn't want Angel and Spike to fight over her in the very few days prior the big fight. Even in the eyes of a Bangeler it's clear that it would be more than odd, if she sent Spike away, because Angel was back, willing to stay & she loved him more, yada yada. Whether or not, it wasn't about whom she loved and to what extent - she had the mission to win this fight. Period. She couldn't risk any distractions. Besides, she knew that unlike Angel, Spike had nowhere to go, plus Angel indeed had the sources for the second front if one was needed. Also Spike was more useful by her side than anywhere else. So it was natural to send Angel away.
She said clearly to Angel that she needs a second front (which is true) and that's why she can't risk him (honestly, if she was really caring about him, she would have taken the time to make a call or taking news), but Spike is the biggest reason of this. Buffy doesn't even had to talk about him, Angel directly guessed it (and in a romantic sense moreover).

I agree that she doesn't wanted Spike and Angel on the same house, but she clearly put herself at Spike's side during her conversation with Angel ("he is in my heart", "he's different", "is that your business ?"). If she was in love with Angel, she wouldn't be that much expressive on her feelings for a guy she knows he can't stand... Like she had done with Spike later : "It was a hello", "There were no tongues", "I was surprised" (in the shooting script, there is this sentence too). She tries to minimize the meaning of her kiss with Angel, she needs justify herself. It seems natural. This ? It's a thing you do with the person you love...


"I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life."
You know what ? I like this sentence. Because she comforts me on my opinions about B/A and Buffy's love life.

Like I was saying, she will never love again like she loved during her young years. It plays on a level of intensity, because, let's face it, she was in a period of her life where it was appropriate. But I think it has nothing to do really with Angel. Because now, at this period of her life, if she could love Angel again, or Spike, or Riley, or Parker, or Andrew or anyone else, she will never be that much demonstrative again. It has nothing to do with an "amount" of love for ONE person. It has to do with who she is.

And, 2) it goes in the direction of the idealization she had of her relationship with Angel. She doesn't know him for years, she sees him one time by year (which maintains the fantasy), and she put on a pedestal this period of her love life. It's normal, it happens to a lot of girls, but she'll never find this way of feeling again. She doesn't see Angel like he is, she has an image of him in her mind. That's not my idea of real love.
So when she said "I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life", it totally goes in the direction of the idealization. She speaks about a way of loving, when she was younger, even if she doesn't realize it. Because she still has a lot to learn by herself (she's still blind at some levels). She's not a liar, but it's the perfect proof of how she put on a pedestal this kind of love. It plays on an emotionnal appreciation, period. But it remains ways of loving.

It really doesn't fit with my definition of love. We all expect to be accepted and loved for who we are. Not for an image of who we are... It's really easy to promise an eternal love to a person you see one time by year. It's less easy to open yourself completely to someone you know and you see every day by your side, because you expose your weaknesses and you have to trust the person in front of you. So, when the "I love you" comes, it's just more powerful and meaningful to me... The strengh of the symbolism is completely different.


Concerning the 'argument' "she lied to Spike when he was dying", oh, please, seriously... I said all what I have to say about why I think she was in love with him. But I think it's a big insult to Buffy's character, and to the importance of the Spuffy relationship in Buffy's heart.


when I look at Season 8 (though I don't care much about it, but it seems to be quite canon, lol) there's indeed not much left of Spuffy. It was clearly implied she knew he was 'undead' again and didn't care enough to go see him.
Okay, I have to say it, her attitude in the comics toward him is the best proof of love that she could give, I just totally love it ♥ Why ? Because, obviously, he's important to her and she loves him. That's why she's so hurt and angry because of him when she discovered he's alive (we have seen her reaction to him in #36 but I guess we'll see later her reaction on the moment). If she was really indifferent, she would react normally... I mean, he doesn't even tell her he was back. How is she supposed to feel ? The last time she saw him, she opened her heart to him. And now, he's back for months, and he doesn't even tell her ? Knowing Buffy, she felt rejected again.

TimeTravellingBunny explains it in a better English than me, I recommend it, really :

http://boot-the-grime.livejournal.com/1380.html#cutid1


It's not indifference. It's the exact opposite.
 
E
EvilBuffy
Excellent post :)
S
StarSlayer
You're awesome :D Great post!
Well, whatever the reason of sending Angel away, whether it's what she said or what someone reads into it, it doesn't negate the fact that she loves him. So the outcome of that discussion isn't as relevant or important from a shipping angle like it is with the last Spuffy scene. And unlike Spike, he wasn't exactly minutes away from dying in a glorious act of redemption when they were talking. Even Joss thinks Angel is 'petty' here, so I'd say the opinions you're referring to are at least somewhat valid.

Also, it isn't about 'daring to do such a thing' to Spike in particular, it applies to what she would do in general, when it comes to any character. To say that she's lying in 'Chosen', is a huge discredit to her character and basically OOC.

Again, what Joss thinks will never ever shape my interpretation so that is a moot point for me. And you say 'whatever the reason' she sent him away for. But if we're saying it's OOC for Buffy to lie, then it isn't 'whatever reason is it'? It's because she needed a second front should she fail. The opinions I'm referring to (which originally was actually quite tongue in cheek) are not somewhat valid because they suggest Buffy was lying to Angel which, to me, is an hugely unlikely as it for you to think she'd lie to Spike. Hugely unfair to slam the Bangels for suggesting it and then to suggest there's some validity when the Spuffies do it.

Personally, I don't think she was lying. I don't believe her, but I don't think she was lying. Or the other popular argument that she didn't mean in love. Either, or.

So basically saying Buffy tried to force herself to love Spike is just something you like to believe not actually something you discerned from the text?

That's a little unfair isn't it? Zobo, everyone is entitled to view the show how they wish. Just because their interpretation, or what they saw, differs from yours, doesn't mean that its just 'something they like to believe' but not actually something from the text. What makes your opinion any less something you just like to believe?
 
It's not a question of whether Angel or Spike had a place to go. (Go to another abandoned house if Buffy wanted to be with Angel, but avoid Spike, lol). And yes. Buffy clearly wanted Spike in her fight. She said it numerous times. She also wanted Angel to run the second front. He was a great leader, had the resources, so she knew he would be able to get it done. Now, that's one reason Buffy didn't want Angel by her side, but what's the other? 😉 Angel sensed something was going on between Buffy and Spike, and it threw him off. Some Bangels say that whenever Buffy and Angel are together, they forget the world around them and just want to be with each other. Well, that certainly didn't happen this time. Buffy chose to be with Spike, and that's the bottom-line. 🙂

I think we should agree to disagree on that. To me, she chose to be with Spike because it was the obvious thing to do under given circumstances. She knew that Spike and Angel had their issues already. And Buffy isn't stupid, even if Angel didn't literally smell something, she knew there would be tensions. I know, you think it was out of her huge immortal love for Spike that she couldn't wait to get rid of Angel, yada yada. To me, it's wishful thinking on your part. No offence. I never said, she hadn't feelings for Spike at the time. Of course it played in, but the main reasons for her to send Angel away were those I already have stated in my previous post.

Yeah, I disagree because I really consider the timing of when Buffy said it and who she said it to, which was Xander. It doesn't prove to me at all that she loved Angel more than Spike. Also, if we're considering the events of s8
you can argue all you want that Buffy loves Angel more (which I don't agree with), but the fact remains is that despite all this "bestest, weirdest, bestest" day malarkey with Angel, Buffy was still day-dreaming about Spike.

To feel sexually attracted to someone and to love someone are two different things.
Just because she has dreamed of having sex with Spike (actually a threesome with Angel) doesn't mean that she's romantically in love with him. And there's also the halfhearted, not to say failed, reunion.
 
Again, what Joss thinks will never ever shape my interpretation so that is a moot point for me. And you say 'whatever the reason' she sent him away for. But if we're saying it's OOC for Buffy to lie, then it isn't 'whatever reason is it'? It's because she needed a second front should she fail. The opinions I'm referring to (which originally was actually quite tongue in cheek) are not somewhat valid because they suggest Buffy was lying to Angel which, to me, is an hugely unlikely as it for you to think she'd lie to Spike. Hugely unfair to slam the Bangels for suggesting it and then to suggest there's some validity when the Spuffies do it.

Personally, I don't think she was lying. I don't believe her, but I don't think she was lying. Or the other popular argument that she didn't mean in love. Either, or.

I quoted Joss to illustrate why people could easily interpret that scene a certain way. And no, this isn't the same as with Spike. Angel isn't on the verge of dying, is he? Also, if she's lying here, it's a white lie at best, an 'instrumental' lie to 'keep the peace', so to speak. But this is all hypothetical anyway, as the reason she states is sufficient enough for me - and for you, it seems, nor does the outcome of this debate threaten anyone's shipping convictions.
 
Flannen
Flannen
This is true. It is good enough for both of us which makes our debate a little nonsensical! :)
Flannen said:
That's a little unfair isn't it? Zobo, everyone is entitled to view the show how they wish. Just because their interpretation, or what they saw, differs from yours, doesn't mean that its just 'something they like to believe' but not actually something from the text. What makes your opinion any less something you like to believe?
I would have accepted the opinion if she could provide me with examples from the text to show the love being forced. Instead she acknowledged that there was love (or something that looked like love) and said it was "forced" with absolutely no proof. I don't mind people having different interpretations of the text, actually, I love reading things where people see it differently than me. That makes sure it doesn't get stale and gives me something to think about. I'm new to the fandom so my opinions are constantly being shaped by the things I hear from others. If I wasn't interested in different opinions and interpretations, I wouldn't frequent a message board about it. However, when someone has an opinion or interpretation like that... to the point of a theory of a character's motives and thoughts, there should be examples and evidence from the text, if those things do not exist, yes... it is just something they "like to believe." I'll admit, there are things I believe about the show and characters that I just like to believe... for example, Buffy and Spike had sex in Chosen. But I wouldn't present that as fact or as a legitimate opinion and interpretation because I don't really have proof. It's just a theory... Just a wish and a hope.

Also I know my comment was a tad snappy but as I said to Buffyheaven, it annoys me quite a bit when people ignore the actions that prove Buffy loved Spike in season 7... but it annoys me to a-whole-nother level when they take those actions that prove she loved him and make them into "fake love."
 
Also I know my comment was a tad snappy but as I said to Buffyheaven, it annoys me quite a bit when people ignore the actions that prove Buffy loved Spike in season 7... but it annoys me to a-whole-nother level when they take those actions that prove she loved him and make them into "fake love."

I can appreciate that, as a Spike and Spuffy fan, you would find that frustrating but people are quite entitled to do what annoys you so much. Because to them, it isn't a peice of proof. We all get annoyed when we see things we believe in or think prove something, disregarded (for want of a better word) but we have to accept that it's nothing personal - which you did in the first paragraph of this post lol

And having some theories, hopes and wishes isn't wrong. Sometimes I think that it can be hard to express ourselves fully sometimes because a lot of what we 'see' comes from how we FEEL. And its really hard to explain that you just really really FEEL that something would happen in a certain way. Like, it seems that the reason you think that happened in Chosen is because you FEEL it, like just get this huge overwhelming SENSE that that is what would have happened. But this is hard to express verbally. This is honestly why I think we all spend so much time going round in these circles because we're always looking for ways to try and make those feelings something more subsantial...and we still don't get anywhere 😉
 
Z
zobothehobo
I think you're aboslutely right. It is about how we FEEL. Well said.
S
StarSlayer
Yep, I think we can all agree with that :)
I think we should agree to disagree on that.

Yeah, I think we must because to me, it wasn't just an obvious choice. 😉 But, I don't think she couldn't wait to get rid of Angel. I admit she was happy to see him when he showed up (although I believe Angel was OOC, but that's a whole other topic of discussion). But, she handled the situation honestly and maturely. Buffy and Spike's relationship is a bit more subtle than that. 🙂

To feel sexually attracted to someone and to love someone are two different things.

I completely agree, but with Buffy and Spike, I'm also taking into consideration everything they've been through. I know Buffy loves Spike. 🙂

Just because she has dreamed of having sex with Spike (actually a threesome with Angel) doesn't mean that she's romantically in love with him. And there's also the halfhearted, not to say failed, reunion.

Well,
I'm talking about when Spike came back. She day-dreamed of just her and Spike although she told Angel he has her heart. Obviously, he doesn't have her whole heart. Also, I don't think their reunion was a complete failure. Was it the reunion I pictured? Hell no, but I don't like predictable stories so I'm good with it. If anything, Spike seemed to get under Buffy's skin and make her realize the consequences of what she just did. If Buffy loved Angel so much more and thought what she did with him was so right, why feel bad about it? So, I'm okay with Spike telling Buffy that having sex with Angel was not the best decision. 🙂
 
I've commented on this thread before but I feel that I want to jump in again and have my say, then maybe actually contribute to the discussion.

Yes, Buffy did love Spike--just the look on her face in paticular scenes shows us that. Natrually it didn't begin as love, it began as a sexual attraction and a way to get away from what she didn't want to deal with in her life. But Buffy began to depend on him. Why? Because he was there in a time when she felt she could turn to nobody else. No matter how much she was using him, no matter what he did to her (or attempted to do) she still acknowledged that she had grown to need him.

Since this is not a question of 'Did Buffy love Spike more than Angel?' I wasn't going to address the Angel issue but discussions like this always require us to look at the Angel side of things as well. So, did Buffy love Angel? Well, notice how there is never question of that. She and Angel said it to each other enough times and their love was really obviously love. This could be because it wasn't purely sexual or just because it wasn't in the murky waters to us. It was just love. And nobody asks (or they don't ask often becasue they would be kind of mad if they did) 'Does Spike love Buffy?'. We've seen enough proof to know of Spike's feelings. He's madly in love with Buffy, and even if you argue that he misinterpreted his feelings initally, they have grown to be love either way.

So, what do we have? I've said that Buffy loves Spike, Buffy loves Angel, Angel loves Buffy and Spike loves Buffy. And we all knew all of that, well except for the first one which is what we're arguing here.

People often say that Buffy can't love Spike because she'll never love anybody as much as she loved Angel. I've said before that I agree that Buffy and Angel's love is eternal and they'll always feel something for one another. They'll become jealous when they see the other with a new someone and they'll have that intense rush when they see each other again which might result in a kiss or something like that. That doesn't mean they still have that burning desire for each other that they used to. They still have the feelings, yes but they've moved on. They have to move on. I believe that in Chosen Angel was being a bit unfair with most of the things that he's saying. Because one thing that DOES annoy me about Angel is the fact that he somehow, even if he doesn't say it, believes that while he can move on and do whatever he wants with his life, he seems to believe that Buffy will always be pining for him. ANGEL'S MOVED ON and we've all accepted that. A great many of us have accepted Cangel--even if you're Bangels. So why can't we accept Spuffy?

Is it because Spuffy started as a simple sexual attraction? Or a simple way to feel something other than the cold? Sure, it started that way. Do we remember how Cangel started? Cangel started in Buffy, when they first met, with Cordelia being all Cordelia-like around Angel and liking him because he was 'hot' or whatever. Spuffy grew into something more, just like Cangel did. In season 7 there was no sexual stuff centered around Spuffy except for a sexual encounter that we didn't see but you'd be mad to argue that it didn't happen. They were in love, you can tell. Buffy said "I don't want to be the one". Really, I think she just doesn't want to hurt him. You see that Spike loves with a poets heart, Buffy feels she is unable to give him what he needs...but she loves him.

I've exhausted my rambling for now but give that some thought and I'm going to go subscribe to this thread and participate in upcoming discussions 😛
 
Z
zobothehobo
Finally! I can rep again! This is an amazing post! very well said! and I agree with every word of it
brinkster130 agrees: They forgot the world around them for a few seconds while they greeted each other with sweet kisses

I'll see your "sweet kisses," and raise you fire erupting between two clasped hands, forgetting the hellmouth is collapsing around them, lol. 😀

---------- Post added at 07:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:52 PM ----------

People often say that Buffy can't love Spike because she'll never love anybody as much as she loved Angel. I've said before that I agree that Buffy and Angel's love is eternal and they'll always feel something for one another. They'll become jealous when they see the other with a new someone and they'll have that intense rush when they see each other again which might result in a kiss or something like that. That doesn't mean they still have that burning desire for each other that they used to. They still have the feelings, yes but they've moved on. They have to move on. I believe that in Chosen Angel was being a bit unfair with most of the things that he's saying. Because one thing that DOES annoy me about Angel is the fact that he somehow, even if he doesn't say it, believes that while he can move on and do whatever he wants with his life, he seems to believe that Buffy will always be pining for him. ANGEL'S MOVED ON and we've all accepted that. A great many of us have accepted Cangel--even if you're Bangels. So why can't we accept Spuffy?

I reached my limit for rep, but I completely agree with your comments about Angel in that scene. Makes me hate him a little bit over the fact that he thinks he owns Buffy and expects her to wait for him. It's more of my love for Buffy, not so much Spuffy, that makes me feel that way.

Buffy said "I don't want to be the one". Really, I think she just doesn't want to hurt him. You see that Spike loves with a poets heart, Buffy feels she is unable to give him what he needs...but she loves him.

I think there's so much more going on in that scene though. When Spike says, "You're the one Buffy," he doesn't just mean she's "the one" for him, but that she's the one slayer/person that can get the job done. She's the one thing he's ever been sure of in his life. When Buffy said she didn't want to be the one, I think she's was more referring to how she didn't want to be the one that has to be the slayer and the leader because she seemed to have reached her breaking point in this scene. She was tired, wanted to quit, and I think didn't want to keep being the slayer. But, Spike gave her the strength she needed to keep fighting. 🙂
 
Well,
I'm talking about when Spike came back. She day-dreamed of just her and Spike although she told Angel he has her heart. Obviously, he doesn't have her whole heart. Also, I don't think their reunion was a complete failure. Was it the reunion I pictured? Hell no, but I don't like predictable stories so I'm good with it. If anything, Spike seemed to get under Buffy's skin and make her realize the consequences of what she just did. If Buffy loved Angel so much more and thought what she did with him was so right, why feel bad about it? So, I'm okay with Spike telling Buffy that having sex with Angel was not the best decision. 🙂

Of course she regretted the chaos she created by sleeping with Angel. How couldn't she? But I certainly can't see her regretting the experience itself. Like she said: it was the weirdest bestest day of her life and she thanked Angel for trying to give her 'perfection' and then giving it up for her to help eliminate the harm they caused on earth. So she already realized it wasn't the best idea but still she told him he's not only the love of her life but the one she would spend it with etc. The daydream about Spike was just a fantasy and a writer's trick to keep Spuffies warm. Dunno what the future brings, maybe she'll reconsider her future plans and end up with Spike eventually. If it's what she wants, if she clearly chooses Spike over Angel, then I'd wish them a house full of fat grandchildren..lol... 😉
 
Of course she regretted the chaos she created by sleeping with Angel. How couldn't she? But I certainly can't see her regretting the experience itself. Like she said: it was the weirdest bestest day of her life and she thanked Angel for trying to give her 'perfection' and then giving it up for her to help eliminate the harm they caused on earth. So she already realized it wasn't the best idea but still she told him he's not only the love of her life but the one she would spend it with etc. The daydream about Spike was just a fantasy and a writer's trick to keep Spuffies warm. Dunno what the future brings, maybe she'll reconsider her future plans and end up with Spike eventually. If it's what she wants, if she clearly chooses Spike over Angel, then I'd wish them a house full of fat grandchildren..lol... 😉

Why do you resort to arguments on a meta-level for Spike/Spuffy ('a writer's trick'), but not for Angel/Bangel? By the same reasoning, we could conclude that the whole of season 8 is meant to keep the Bangel shippers happy.
 
white avenger
white avenger
About the daydream in question, I feel exactly the same way about Angel's appearance in the last episodes of Season 7. Just put in to pacify the Bangels.
It's a hard one, I do think she loved Spike. She did say that she wasn't ready for him not to be in her life anyone, so I'd agree with the notion that he was the most important person in her world at that specific time (in terms of helping her keep going and fighting). Plus, that moment in Chosen when they clasp hands, jesus was that powerfully emotionally, it did feel like real love.

In a way I was sad that Joss brought Spike back in Season 5 of Angel because the end of Chosen was such an epic way to end the relationship between Buffy and Spike. Spike being in Season 5 of Angel basically mopping about most of the time just felt like a season long hangover from Chosen.

Anyway it doesn't bother me really, afterall, I am an Angel and Cordelia shipper. 😉
 
S
StarSlayer
Cangel karma :D But, I do like Spike in AtS s5.
P
prophecygrrl
Yay Cangel! I liked the Spike came back, but I'm not a huge fan of how they did it and his role in the first half (give or take) of the season.
I think it was pretty obvious that she loved both Spike and Angel. Some fans may prefer her relationship with Angel. Some preferred her relationship with Spike. But I think she loved them both.
 
Kana
Kana
[No message]
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Spikefan31
[No message]
Of course she regretted the chaos she created by sleeping with Angel. How couldn't she? But I certainly can't see her regretting the experience itself. Like she said: it was the weirdest bestest day of her life and she thanked Angel for trying to give her 'perfection' and then giving it up for her to help eliminate the harm they caused on earth. So she already realized it wasn't the best idea but still she told him he's not only the love of her life but the one she would spend it with etc. The daydream about Spike was just a fantasy and a writer's trick to keep Spuffies warm. Dunno what the future brings, maybe she'll reconsider her future plans and end up with Spike eventually. If it's what she wants, if she clearly chooses Spike over Angel, then I'd wish them a house full of fat grandchildren..lol... 😉

Wait, wait back it up... I thought all that was an after effect the glow. Did Buffy really mean that? If all of that was sincere then this is not the Buffy I know and love. *is worried*
 
Miss Kitty
Miss Kitty
She is under the influence of the glow ! I mean, look at the issue, you'll see it by yourself, the drawings make it obvious in my opinion...
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