Question Did Buffy REALLY love Spike?

[Miss Kitty]

Spoiler

Of course she regretted the chaos she created by sleeping with Angel. How couldn't she? But I certainly can't see her regretting the experience itself. Like she said: it was the weirdest bestest day of her life and she thanked Angel for trying to give her 'perfection' and then giving it up for her to help eliminate the harm they caused on earth. So she already realized it wasn't the best idea but still she told him he's not only the love of her life but the one she would spend it with etc. The daydream about Spike was just a fantasy and a writer's trick to keep Spuffies warm. Dunno what the future brings, maybe she'll reconsider her future plans and end up with Spike eventually. If it's what she wants, if she clearly chooses Spike over Angel, then I'd wish them a house full of fat grandchildren..lol... 😉

Wow, I think I couldn't disagree more than this with you. First of all, her speech to Angel was a great parody, I can't understand how any fan can take it serious. Okay, the interpretation is free, but... it's so obvious 😕

I mean, uh, come on, look at her face, it's not even natural :

SPOILER : http://i31.servimg.com/u/f31/12/91/94/25/buffy_19.jpg

Spoiler

This ? It's supposed to be serious ? She seems to be drugged... And Willow transforms Angel in a frog... A frog, please...

It's like if we were supposed to take Spuffy in Something Blue in a serious way.

It's my interpretation of course, you can disagree and it's lucky for you if you're taking it seriously, but to me, it's the biggest *parody* that Joss could do of the Buffy & Angel relationship. I find it funny, not romantic 😱

Spoiler

They're acting in this OTT way because they're under the influence of the glow. Buffy is totally OOC, it's not an accident... Moreover, the daydream about Spike isn't only about sex. It's about romance (the kiss) and the confession about how she considers him, the one she can say everything and the one with who she can be herself. This *is* closer of romance (in my opinion of course).

 

[AustCF]

Yes, in my mind, she loved him, but Spike couldn't accept that she could love someone like him. But she did love him. In my opinion.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Completely agree with everything Miss Kitty just said. 😀

Just wanted to add: I don't know if you read the Q&A's Georges Jeanty does at the end of every issue, but speaking of the

Spoiler

daydream Buffy has about Spike, Jeanty mentions there how Joss specifically directed him to draw that sex scene. I don't remember in which Q&A, but I'm guessing that's the one for issue #37 or #38. Jeanty says that he and Joss even discussed minute details like the placement of their hands. I don't view it as a huge plot point obviously, but that small detail of how the scene was conceptualized, to me, tells me that even Joss meant for that scene to be viewed as something tender and intimate, not simply a random lusty sex dream. I think we have to keep in mind how the scenes themselves look and how they're planned and drawn, not just what happens.

 

[LadyLavinia]

So why is it that the Spuffy shippers have had to defend Buffy's exact same words, under very similar circumstances (i e, she was, as far as she knew at the time, assuring him of her true feelings in the final moments of his life) from practically the minute that the words left her mouth up until now?

Because you force us to defend Spuffy, every damn time. Because you believe that the only kind of romantic love is the kind that Buffy shared with Angel, when it isn't.

 

[Spikefan31]

Yes.


messagetooshort

 

[Tina3]

I think if Buffy knew everything that Angel had really done, she wouldn't love him nearly as much as the writers like us to believe she does. Angel taking back that day that he was human would devastate Buffy and in some sense prove that even if Angel is Buffy's love of her life, she isn't the love of his. If she was, he wouldn't have had that day turned back and to be completely honest, it wasn't like he was really missing her on his show at all. I saw him show more emotion to Cordy than he ever really did to Buffy. He wants her to need him, he doesn't really need her he just doesn't want anyone else to have her. I also don't think Buffy would be OK with Angel allowing Darla/Dru to get away with eating the human lawyers, regardless of if they were evil or not. Warren was evil to the extreme and Buffy wasn't allowing him to be killed.

That kiss they shared as a "hello" was ridiculous. They've met up on both their shows prior to this and there was never that show of emotion between them like there was in this one. IMO it was just a shout out to Bangels and in some way made her statement to Spike in the end seem really stupid and shallow. She had just told Spike that she was there with him, meaning it was something that was so special emotionally and then she kisses Angel and acts like he's her savior? She can't make up her mind. She has Angel on this pedestal with false impressions, which is exactly what he wants, and she doesn't know the real TRUE Angel that her love may be real for him, but is actually fake because that person doesn't even exist. She doesn't realize that she truly loves Spike until it's too late and of course he shouldn't believe her.

Did she really love Spike. I think she really did but continually fought it because her friends and Giles was so against it. Everyone else was always forgiven for everything they ever did, but Spike never was in the Scoobies eyes, no matter how much he tried to help them at times. Anya killed all but Giles in her wishverse and never had regrets for anything she did in the 1000+ years as a Vengeance Demon but because she was now human, everything she had done was forgiven. Xander killed people with the Singing Demon and attempted rape of Buffy, Willow was forgiven for Black Willow, Giles was forgiven for leaving and Ben, but Spike was never forgiven even when he had helped them and saved their lives multiple times. He never got a break. Angel even got breaks, but never Spike. She loved him in S6 and loved him in S7, but never really realized it and fought it and tried to turn to others (Robin and Angel) to make it seem like she didn't love Spike, but she did. She showed it too many times but would never admit it to herself really until the end.

Did Spike believe her, I don't think he really did. She took too long to say the words out loud and she seemed to struggle to even say them. IMO, Spike loves too purely to be with Buffy. She is too selfish with the love that people give her at times to be truly worthy of the love and support that Spike gave her. I don't think she could or would ever love Spike the way he loved her, and I don't think it is just because she is the Slayer. It isn't her being the Slayer that is her problem, it is a Buffy problem and stems all the way back to Angel. It was never the Slayer that loved Angel, it was the girl and that girl never grew up.

 

[StarSlayer]

Did Spike believe her, I don't think he really did. She took too long to say the words out loud and she seemed to struggle to even say them. IMO, Spike loves too purely to be with Buffy. She is too selfish with the love that people give her at times to be truly worthy of the love and support that Spike gave her. I don't think she could or would ever love Spike the way he loved her, and I don't think it is just because she is the Slayer. It isn't her being the Slayer that is her problem, it is a Buffy problem and stems all the way back to Angel. It was never the Slayer that loved Angel, it was the girl and that girl never grew up.

I think Spike did believe her, but couldn't accept it considering the circumstances as to when Buffy said it. With Buffy, I think that was the point of her cookie dough speech. She wasn't at a point where she saw a future with anyone not because she is the slayer, but because she is a woman. I do think a lot of her problems with loving (or maybe in expressing that love since she is full of love afterall) can relate back to her relationship with Angel, but that's one of the reasons why I love her relationship with Spike, especially in s7. He helped her learn how to love again. She got the fire back. 😉

 

[Red Sox Nation]

what I find weird about Shippers is they're always completely biased. Spuffy & Cangel shippers insist that its the adult, mature & long-term relationship, while Bangel shippers keep saying its forever & they can't ever love anybody else.

^^of course not everybody is like that, but I've noticed most of them are.

I'm not a shipper, I don't like one relationship over the other, & I just analyze what I see, Spike & Angel are my favorite characters. so to answer the OP's question, yes she did love Spike, & yes she was in love with him by "Chosen". but the real question is, who will she choose when a day comes that she has to choose someone, & here I think its Angel, their love back in S2-3 was to the point where it was unhealthy, & she has this blind spot for Angel.

 

[StarSlayer]

what I find weird about Shippers is they're always completely biased. Spuffy & Cangel shippers insist that its the adult, mature & long-term relationship, while Bangel shippers keep saying its forever & they can't ever love anybody else.

With Spuffy and Cangel, some of the writers have said these relationships are more adult and mature because they are more real. So, I think that's one of the reasons why us shippers say that, in addition to what we see in the show, lol!

but the real question is, who will she choose when a day comes that she has to choose someone, & here I think its Angel, their love back in S2-3 was to the point where it was unhealthy, & she has this blind spot for Angel.

Honestly, although my Spuffy heart will forever root for Buffy and Spike to be together, I don't think Buffy will ever choose. I think the debate will go on forever because Joss just likes to torture us shippers and never give a happy ending, lol! However, since the TV series ended in s7 and Buffy chose to spend her last few nights with Spike, that's good enough for me. 😉

 

[Red Sox Nation]

With Spuffy and Cangel, some of the writers have said these relationships are more adult and mature because they are more real. So, I think that's one of the reasons why us shippers say that, in addition to what we see in the show, lol!



Honestly, although my Spuffy heart will forever root for Buffy and Spike to be together, I don't think Buffy will ever choose. I think the debate will go on forever because Joss just likes to torture us shippers and never give a happy ending, lol! However, since the TV series ended in s7 and Buffy chose to spend her last few nights with Spike, that's good enough for me. 😉

& I don't want her to choose, I loved the ambiguity, & I don't think it will ever come down to that. She loved both & anybody who says no is biased, yes she loved Angel more, but that doesn't mean she didn't love Spike, he was there for her when she needed someone the most, & even though she was a b*tch to him, he was still there for her.

about the mature relationship thing, nobody would produce something & tell you our last version was better & this one is just a substitute, yes it was more natural because it developed progressively, but Spuffies & Cangels overuse that just as much as Bangels overuse "forever love" & Buffy's "I loved him more than I would love anything in my life".

---------- Post added at 11:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 AM ----------

StarSlayer agrees: I've said this before and I'll say it again, lol...Buffy loved both Angel and Spike, just differently. No one can convince me she loved Angel more than Spike.

that's the thing, nobody can convince any shipper to think outside the box, I don't wanna get into this argument because I don't want to undermine Buffy & Spike's relationship, it was one of the few things good about the latter seasons.

 

[StarSlayer]

that's the thing, nobody can convince any shipper to think outside the box,

I think it depends on the person and their willingness to do so. For me, by the end of the series, it's just nothing convinced me that Buffy absolutely loved Angel more than Spike, or even that she loved Spike more than Angel (although my Spuffy heart says otherwise, lol). So, like I said, based on the TV show, I'll always believe she loved them both, just differently. 🙂

 

[Red Sox Nation]

I think it depends on the person and their willingness to do so. For me, by the end of the series, it's just nothing convinced me that Buffy absolutely loved Angel more than Spike, or even that she loved Spike more than Angel (although my Spuffy heart says otherwise, lol). So, like I said, based on the TV show, I'll always believe she loved them both, just differently. 🙂

that's the thing I don't understand, how does "differently" work? explain it to me.

 

[Taake]

that's the thing I don't understand, how does "differently" work? explain it to me.

Well I would say that you love most people differently because they're just that different people. Thus leading you to love them for different reasons, experiences and therefore in another way.

It's still love of course, but if we say in real life most of us will love our next partner in a different way than we loved our previous one. Even if it's similar it will never be the exact same. And thank god for that... how boring things would be if that was the case. 🙂

Angel and Spike were very differently individuals so for me it wouldn't have made sense for Buffy to love them in the same way. Unless you mean "romantically" as a general term here... cause yes there was "romantic love" but if you look on a deeper lever different kinds of romantic love

 

[StarSlayer]

that's the thing I don't understand, how does "differently" work? explain it to me.

In a nutshell, I think Buffy loved and will always love Angel because of the simple truth that he was her first real love. She lost her virginity to him. They have a history together (a big one) and there's no escaping that. For me though, it doesn't mean that he's the guy she'll end up with in the long-run. She's grown so much since her relationship with Angel, but I don't deny that she'll always feel something for him based on this history. It just may not be feelings of love in a romantic sense because I see it more as love in a nostalgic sense.

I think Buffy loved, scratch that, loves Spike 😉 because he helped her grow as a person. She grew to trust him, she grew to rely on him, she grew to love him. Buffy and Spike just complement each other so well, unlike anything I saw with Buffy and Angel. It's not the "when you kiss me, I want to die" feeling, but rather something much more passionate, much more complex, and much more alive and real IMO. I get totally different feelings when it comes to Bangel and Spuffy, and my feelings for Spuffy outweigh my feelings for Bangel entirely. 🙂

Some would say Angel and Buffy really had more of an idealized first love while Spike and Buffy have the more adult, messy kind of love which is more realistic? That's right. It's not idealized and it's just so often ugly and yet when James Marsters does stuff where you look in his face and you go "Oh, my God, he loves her so much!" Ahh! It's just so wonderful. -- Jane Espenson (TV Zone Interview, 2002)

But my number one has got to be the Buffy and Spike love story. I think that is just a gorgeous story. How do you follow up her romance with Angel? I like the romance with Spike better. I'm more interested in the heat between those two characters because I felt Buffy and Angel had romantic love. Spike and Buffy have something so much more complicated that it's got that romance and all this other stuff on top of it which makes it so interesting for me. -- Jane Espenson (TV Zone Interview, 2002)

The great Marsters with a chemistry with Buffy that is just completely different from Angel's, and different than David's, and yet works very, very well. He's more on Buffy's level. He's more... Their vulnerabilities come out, and I don't just mean as characters, but as actors around each other. And that really works, it works on a very different level. Their relationship has clearly been through a lot - much more, in fact, than her relationship with Angel, in a way. And you feel that history with these two, and they bring it to the set every time they come to work and that's why we still came to work, because they did. -- Joss Whedon ("Chosen" Commentary)

 

[Tina3]

Red Sox Nation and Star Slayer,

Part of my problem with Bangel is it can't be real TRUE love when neither Buffy nor Angel really know each other. They both may love each other and feel they will never love someone as much as they love each other, but it isn't REAL, it can't be. They both have false impressions of who the other person really is. Buffy has NO CLUE as to the real Angel, she knows nothing of him since he left Sunnydale or the things he's done. Same goes for Angel, he has no idea of the real Buffy, just the pedestal Buffy he's created in his mind.

I think this is why Cordy and Spike had/have such an impact with many fans as the proper suitors for Angel and Buffy. Both Cordy and Spike know Angel and Buffy completely. Each of them has seen the best and worst of each other and still came out intact with no false impressions or pedestals to speak of.

All of that is just my opinion but I just can't wrap myself around a true love Bangel when it's all based off of incomplete knowledge of the other person. I just can't.

 

[Red Sox Nation]

Well I would say that you love most people differently because they're just that different people. Thus leading you to love them for different reasons, experiences and therefore in another way.

It's still love of course, but if we say in real life most of us will love our next partner in a different way than we loved our previous one. Even if it's similar it will never be the exact same. And thank god for that... how boring things would be if that was the case.

Angel and Spike were very differently individuals so for me it wouldn't have made sense for Buffy to love them in the same way. Unless you mean "romantically" as a general term here... cause yes there was "romantic love" but if you look on a deeper lever different kinds of romantic love

I had no doubt that she didn't love them the same way, as there are different kinds of romantic love. but Spuffies use the word "differently" to mask the word "more", just as Bangels use Spike's word in "Chosen" when he said "no you don't, but thanks for saying it" as a proof that she didn't love him, when in fact she did love him, it was pretty obvious she loved him.

& when I say more, I don't mean later in the show, but she loved Angel more when she was in a relationship with him, she wouldn't even love Angel himself as much if she had a relationship with him again.

In a nutshell, I think Buffy loved and will always love Angel because of the simple truth that he was her first real love. She lost her virginity to him. They have a history together (a big one) and there's no escaping that. For me though, it doesn't mean that he's the guy she'll end up with in the long-run. She's grown so much since her relationship with Angel, but I don't deny that she'll always feel something for him based on this history. It just may not be feelings of love in a romantic sense because I see it more as love in a nostalgic sense.

I think Buffy loved, scratch that, loves Spike because he helped her grow as a person. She grew to trust him, she grew to rely on him, she grew to love him. Buffy and Spike just complement each other so well, unlike anything I saw with Buffy and Angel. It's not the "when you kiss me, I want to die" feeling, but rather something much more passionate, much more complex, and much more alive and real IMO. I get totally different feelings when it comes to Bangel and Spuffy, and my feelings for Spuffy outweigh my feelings for Bangel entirely.

I agree for the most part, Buffy loved Spike because he was there for her, & he did the impossible for her, fought for his soul.

Part of my problem with Bangel is it can't be real TRUE love when neither Buffy nor Angel really know each other. They both may love each other and feel they will never love someone as much as they love each other, but it isn't REAL, it can't be. They both have false impressions of who the other person really is. Buffy has NO CLUE as to the real Angel, she knows nothing of him since he left Sunnydale or the things he's done. Same goes for Angel, he has no idea of the real Buffy, just the pedestal Buffy he's created in his mind.

I think this is why Cordy and Spike had/have such an impact with many fans as the proper suitors for Angel and Buffy. Both Cordy and Spike know Angel and Buffy completely. Each of them has seen the best and worst of each other and still came out intact with no false impressions or pedestals to speak of.

All of that is just my opinion but I just can't wrap myself around a true love Bangel when it's all based off of incomplete knowledge of the other person. I just can't.

I'm one of those guys that think I don't have to be best friends with my girlfriend, pardon my language, but sex isn't as good when you're doing it to your best friend. couples complete each other, they shouldn't be copies of each other. a relationship is more exciting when you learn about your other half as the relationship goes on, it keeps you interested, you can become her best friend later, & that would be fine, but to start out as a best friend (or to start out as you know each other very well) is a very bad idea.

 

[StarSlayer]

I had no doubt that she didn't love them the same way, as there are different kinds of romantic love. but Spuffies use the word "differently" to mask the word "more"

I don't think "mask" is the right word choice. It's just different interpretations. For example, let's refer to the line many think proves Buffy loved Angel more than Spike. "I loved him [Angel] more than I will ever love anything in this life." Some think that this line ultimately proves Buffy loved Angel the most and Spuffies tend to ignore this. However, if we take this line literally, does that mean Buffy loved Angel more than Dawn? More than her own mother? IMO, no way. That's what makes her love for Angel different.

Also, Spuffies (myself included) look at the context of this scene. Her relationship with Spike was developing, so I don't think Buffy was in a place at that point to say she loved Spike more than anything. More importantly, Buffy says this line in order to make a point to Xander that she needs to kill Anya, like she had to kill Angel although she loved him. Her entire line is, "I killed Angel! Do you even remember that? I would have given up everything I had to be with— I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life. And I put a sword through his heart because I had to." Yet, Buffy was never willing to do that with Dawn. She never considered having to kill Dawn an option in order to save the world. In fact, she sacrificed herself so Dawn could live. So, does that mean she loved Dawn more than Angel then? Maybe yes, maybe no, but one thing is for sure...it was different.

I'm just trying to show where some Spuffies come from when we say her love for Angel and her love for Spike are different. 🙂

& when I say more, I don't mean later in the show, but she loved Angel more when she was in a relationship with him, she wouldn't even love Angel himself as much if she had a relationship with him again.

I'm a little confused here. Do you mean you think Buffy loved Angel more simply because she was in an "official" relationship with him? Or that she just showed her love more because they were boyfriend/girlfriend, mainly in s2? If the latter, then I somewhat agree.

 

[Red Sox Nation]

I don't think "mask" is the right word choice. It's just different interpretations. For example, let's refer to the line many think proves Buffy loved Angel more than Spike. "I loved him [Angel] more than I will ever love anything in this life." Some think that this line ultimately proves Buffy loved Angel the most and Spuffies tend to ignore this. However, if we take this line literally, does that mean Buffy loved Angel more than Dawn? More than her own mother? IMO, no way. That's what makes her love for Angel different.

Also, Spuffies (myself included) look at the context of this scene. Her relationship with Spike was developing, so I don't think Buffy was in a place at that point to say she loved Spike more than anything. More importantly, Buffy says this line in order to make a point to Xander that she needs to kill Anya, like she had to kill Angel although she loved him. Her entire line is, "I killed Angel! Do you even remember that? I would have given up everything I had to be with"” I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life. And I put a sword through his heart because I had to." Yet, Buffy was never willing to do that with Dawn. She never considered having to kill Dawn an option in order to save the world. In fact, she sacrificed herself so Dawn could live. So, does that mean she loved Dawn more than Angel then? Maybe yes, maybe no, but one thing is for sure...it was different.

I'm just trying to show where some Spuffies come from when we say her love for Angel and her love for Spike are different.

I agree with the analysis of the line "I loved Angel more than I would love anything in my life" for the most part, but you still do the same thing that Bangels do, you make an excuse for the line, Bangels make an excuse for "no you didn't, but thanks for saying it".

I'm not a shipper & I will never be, I just look at things objectively. & I see faults on the arguments on both sides of the fence.

I'm a little confused here. Do you mean you think Buffy loved Angel more simply because she was in an "official" relationship with him? Or that she just showed her love more because they were boyfriend/girlfriend, mainly in s2? If the latter, then I somewhat agree.

you didn't get my point, back when Buffy was in a relationship with Angel, she loved him like hell, but lets assume they get back together, she might not love him as much as she loved him back then. & that is the reason I'm saying she loved Angel more, nobody can compete with Angel S2-3, not even Angel himself.

 

[StarSlayer]

I agree with the analysis of the line "I loved Angel more than I would love anything in my life" for the most part, but you still do the same thing that Bangels do, you make an excuse for the line, Bangels make an excuse for "no you didn't, but thanks for saying it".

Again, I think your word choice isn't correct. As much as I don't like it when some people think Buffy didn't love Spike (cause I think it's painfully obvious that she did), it's only because they interpret things differently. Same thing with how I see the line. I don't make an excuse for it in order to support my ship. I may interpret it differently, which may imply I interpret in a way that supports my ship, but that's not the case. I like to look at things in their full context. It's just when I do sometimes, the shipper in me comes out, lol!

you didn't get my point, back when Buffy was in a relationship with Angel, she loved him like hell, but lets assume they get back together, she might not love him as much as she loved him back then. & that is the reason I'm saying she loved Angel more, nobody can compete with Angel S2-3, not even Angel himself.

I was trying to understand your point, which is why I said I was confused. 🙂 But, you explained it better to me here, so thanks. Except, I think Spuffy s7 could complete, lol! 😉

 

[Red Sox Nation]

Again, I think your word choice isn't correct. As much as I don't like it when some people think Buffy didn't love Spike (cause I think it's painfully obvious that she did), it's only because they interpret things differently. Same thing with how I see the line. I don't make an excuse for it in order to support my ship. I may interpret it differently, which may imply I interpret in a way that supports my ship, but that's not the case. I like to look at things in their full context. It's just when I do sometimes, the shipper in me comes out, lol!



I was trying to understand your point, which is why I said I was confused. 🙂 But, you explained it better to me here, so thanks. Except, I think Spuffy s7 could complete, lol! 😉

I have a tendancy to use strong words, but my point is, shippers wear their goggles while watching the show, the goggles make them interpret things that way, & they're not aware that they're wearing any goggles. everytime those shippers watch the show, they come up with a new idea to undermine the competing ship, or use out of context phrases to make an argument for their ships, sometimes they even use pictures to show some character doing a signal or having a "look" during a particular scene.

However, its still funny watching arguments between Bangels & Spuffies, I find the arguments kinda humorous.