Did giles make the wrong call?

paisley

Billy Idol Wannabe
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Jul 17, 2008
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Australia
Well. i respect giles and think he really did care about buffy. but do you think he made the wrong call?

He directs her through life and then decides to leave, only to deliever more potentials in the latter episodes of season seven and expect that he still knows best, (eg conspiring to kill spike with principal woods). i think that maybe his guidence was mis judged somewhat.

Do you think that he was doing it for the greater good or maybe trying to gain back some of the control he had when Buffy was younger and feel like he mattered again.

Thoughts anyone?

Hope your having a good day/night (depending on where in the world you are)

peace xoxoxox

:nibble6:
 
L
Lou
[No message]
Giles is occasionally misguided, but he always works for what he sees as the greater good. Well, after he accepts and deals with his past as Ripper anyway. I think the choices he had to make were the hardest out of the group, especially becuase he keeps everything to himself to protect Buffy. A happy Slayer is an effective Slayer. True, some of his choices seem wrong to the viewers, but they are supposed to. That way we get a sense of how difficult they are to make, and it shows us that just because we are rooting for a character like Spike, it doesn't mean said character is good, or helpful to the cause. He sees the big picture always. That's why I like him so much.
 
wow. thats actually a really good way of looking at it. i swear people in here should be councillors!
 
Giles' decision to conspire with Robin Wood in an attempt to kill Spike could very well have cost Buffy and her friends the war and meant world wide chaos at the lest, and total destruction at the best. Granted, he didn't know that at the time, but he still should have had enough faith in Buffy's instincts not to have betrayed her in that way, and that's exactly what it was: betrayal. Hopefully, at some point between the end of Season 7 and the beginning of Season 8, he was man enough to go to her, apologize, admit he was totally wrong, and beg for her forgiveness, not just for that, but also for his part in the mutiny later in the seasons. If it had not been for Spike once more, by her own admission, Buffy would have given up. That's twice that Spike was directly responsible for the defeat of the First Evil.

Hopefully, Giles would have used those examples to completely re-think his feelings about Spike in particular and ensouled vampires in general, but his actions in dealing with Angel when he asked for help while Fred was dying would seem to indicate that he is the same old Giles.
 
I know I've wondered about Giles and his decisions more than a few times.

Mainly because, if we assume that he hadn't been fired from the council and Buffy hadn't quit the council, assumably he'd have been her Watcher until one or both of them were dead.
His actions, actually, make me believe that the council was right to fire him because he IS acting more as a Father than a Watcher.

A father would have left and let her make the "tough" choices and give her room to grow up on her own without leaning on him. A WATCHER should be WATCHING.

I'm not saying he actually made BAD decisions or that I would have done things better. It's just that he seems to mix up the Watcher/Father thing more than he should have if he still wanted to play those cards later.

As a FATHER he could leave, but then he shouldn't be coming back later as a Watcher and saying he didn't like her decisions so he's going to let someone KILL Spike. He also shouldn't have left and then come back and helped with the coup to oust Buffy, especially in favor of Faith.

Beyond Buffy, I think it wasn't necessarily RIGHT, as a watcher or a father, to leave when Buffy was dead. To just leave all those "kids" that he'd grown to love there and worked with for years knowing the danger was still around and that Dawn could be taken at any moment and rushed off to foster care was a little weird and out of character. He had a business there and as a friend, and the only really authority figure these people had, a responsibility to stay and help fight the evil lurking around the Hellmouth.

I LOVE Giles, but these weird comings and goings in the later seasons I found REALLY confusing and was ready for it to be revealed that HE was living a double life.
 
I
InsaneMystic
[No message]
Giles' decision to conspire with Robin Wood in an attempt to kill Spike could very well have cost Buffy and her friends the war and meant world wide chaos at the lest, and total destruction at the best. Granted, he didn't know that at the time, but he still should have had enough faith in Buffy's instincts not to have betrayed her in that way, and that's exactly what it was: betrayal. Hopefully, at some point between the end of Season 7 and the beginning of Season 8, he was man enough to go to her, apologize, admit he was totally wrong, and beg for her forgiveness, not just for that, but also for his part in the mutiny later in the seasons. If it had not been for Spike once more, by her own admission, Buffy would have given up. That's twice that Spike was directly responsible for the defeat of the First Evil.

Hopefully, Giles would have used those examples to completely re-think his feelings about Spike in particular and ensouled vampires in general, but his actions in dealing with Angel when he asked for help while Fred was dying would seem to indicate that he is the same old Giles.


I agree with white avenger
 
Giles was right to leave at the beginning of s6, he's 40 years older than the Scoobies and he has his own life to think about. The only reason he was even in Sunnydale was for Buffy, and with her dead, he may as well go, the others didnt 'need' him. Theres nothing confusing about it, and he didnt have any 'responsibilities', not any more.
And when he returned in s7 with Potentials, given the situation, he kinda had to come back, i doubt he would have if the Potentials wernt being hunted.
And conspiring to kill Spike, ok, he was wrong but Wood did seem very convincing in his little speech about why Spike needs to die, Giles simply got manipulated, i dont think there was any real malice in it, i dont think it was some weak attempt at regaining control.
 
and he didnt have any 'responsibilities', not any more.

Wouldn't the general threat of Big Bads keeping coming to the Hellmouth and targeting these people and trying to end the world....all of which have NEEDED his help to stop...be SOME sort of responsibility? At least a small one?
 
I'm going to reply to a couple of posts which I think sum up the situation.

I know I've wondered about Giles and his decisions more than a few times.
They do have a human and Buffyverse quality to them of not always being up to snuff.

His actions, actually, make me believe that the council was right to fire him because he IS acting more as a Father than a Watcher.
Yes, I do think he did abandon the Watcher role in lieu of the Father-figure role.
Even Buffy states that she needs him to be her Watcher again. I don't think he took up the role again without the father-figure as duality and coloring his decisions. Which is not what Buffy needed or asked for.

Beyond Buffy, I think it wasn't necessarily RIGHT, as a watcher or a father, to leave when Buffy was dead. To just leave all those "kids" that he'd grown to love there and worked with for years knowing the danger was still around and that Dawn could be taken at any moment and rushed off to foster care was a little weird and out of character. He had a business there and as a friend, and the only really authority figure these people had, a responsibility to stay and help fight the evil lurking around the Hellmouth.
As a Watcher, perhaps. There is evil in the world everywhere. In that part he did seem to go off and expand his own strengths in magic, or at least hooked up with others who could help him. So perhaps there was a bigger picture going on there.

As a father-figure to Buffy, there is a certain an abandonment issue as to how far that extends to friends. He knew full well what path Willow was treading on and pretty much knew the eventual outcome. If he left to gain more magical ability to stop her then it was a wise choice. I doubt Willow would have listened to reason from him, she couldn't even when it came from Tara. As for the Hellmouth, well there are a few of those. They were adults after all.

Giles' decision to conspire with Robin Wood in an attempt to kill Spike could very well have cost Buffy and her friends the war and meant world wide chaos at the lest, and total destruction at the best. Granted, he didn't know that at the time, but he still should have had enough faith in Buffy's instincts not to have betrayed her in that way, and that's exactly what it was: betrayal.
And where a clear instance of the Watcher/Father-figure conflict worked against him and everyone else.
It almost appeared that he abandoned both in favor of dispassionate analysis - Black/White and held his charge's opinions as unworthy.
Spike was evil/vampire and half crazy. Spike had a trigger usable by The First. Spike should be dusted.
He utilized neither the Watcher persona or the Father-figure persona with Buffy except in misdirection.
While he obviously never did agree even from the beginning with Buffy's choices regarding her vampiric acquaintances, and lives were lost because of Buffy's belief, in the end for each there would have been even more life lost than not had Giles done what he thought best.

Hopefully, Giles would have used those examples to completely re-think his feelings ... but his actions in dealing with Angel when he asked for help while Fred was dying would seem to indicate that he is the same old Giles.
Yes, the Black/White attitude was still prevalent. Wolfram & Hart bad. Angel evil/vampire.
I would say that perhaps something happened to him while away that completely colored his outlook.
Perhaps it was Buffy's death itself. It could almost be argued that after Buffy's first death (due to his strict Watcher training and reliance on prophecy) that he began to shed the Watcher aspect and then began to take the Father-figure persona which the Watcher council recognized. With her second Death, even that may have been shed in favor of something new. Non-colored dispassionate analysis.
 
As a father-figure to Buffy, there is a certain an abandonment issue as to how far that extends to friends. He knew full well what path Willow was treading on and pretty much knew the eventual outcome. If he left to gain more magical ability to stop her then it was a wise choice. I doubt Willow would have listened to reason from him, she couldn't even when it came from Tara. As for the Hellmouth, well there are a few of those. They were adults after all.

I think this applies well to when he leaves the 2nd time in season 6. But, my main issue is when he leaves the first time when Buffy is dead. At which point, he seemed to be leaving for no apparent purpose at all other than he was no longer needed as a Watcher with Buffy gone.

Of course, by this time, he had kind of "chucked" his Watcher status and gone for soul "team member" status. In which case, he kind of abandoned the "team" by leaving just because Buffy was dead.

The SECOND time he left, I think he had more reason to. Buffy was acting like a whack-job and she needed to find her way out of it on her own.
Still, as it seems evil is not only attracted to the Hellmouth but also the Slayer he could have left to someplace a TAD closer....perhaps LA.
 
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