Did Jasmine manipulate Angel's life in Sunnydale?

[The Arcane]

I've always believed that there has to be a limit to how far back even Joss can plan things. That at least some of the plots that supposedly began years before they culminate must be done at least partially in hindsight, retconning details to fit with newly established canon. However, sometimes I notice things in old episodes that seem so perfectly consistent with later developments that it makes me wonder if Joss really did write his characters storylines years in advance.

For example, I watched Becoming recently on FX. It's one of my favourite double episodes so I've seen it a hundred times before but this time something Whistler said to Buffy made me realise something.

It wasn't supposed to go down like this. Nobody saw you coming. I figured this for Angel's big day. But I thought he was here to *stop* Acathla, not to bring him forth. Then you two made with the smoochies... now he's a creep again.

Nobody saw this going down this way? Not even the PtB? In fact, as far as everyone was concerned it was to be Angel himself that stopped Acathla from waking, presumably from a plan set in motion by Spike and Drusilla.

Which begs the question, what changed? How did events change so radically that the Powers were caught unawares? Could it be that Jasmine was already tinkering with things so that Angel would be in the right place for her plans?

For all things to go the way she needed she had to be certain that Angel would leave Sunnydale and head to L.A. so ensuring that he and Buffy were split up would have been essential. Turning him in Angelus again would be a great way to make this happen.

So was that night at least partly controlled by Jasmine? Did she make certain that they would end up in bed together? Did she influence Spike to bring the Judge to Sunnydale? That would also explain why he was willing to risk the Judge destroying humanity and the world when we know that he actually didn't want this world destroyed, as shown in Becoming.

So, lucky script accident or intentional story planning? Either way it makes for incredible continuity.

 

[Angel's vision]

Nobody saw this going down this way? Not even the PtB? In fact, as far as everyone was concerned it was to be Angel himself that stopped Acathla from waking, presumably from a plan set in motion by Spike and Drusilla.

Wow, i never thought about it like that, but what does puzzle me is why Spike bought the judge to sunnydale in the first place, if he knew that he would destroy humanity, because lets face it he didn't want the judge to, so my guess is that, if Angel hadn't lost his soul, Spike not being the sharpest tool in the box, didn't realise that the judge was going to plan it, and my poor memory tells me that it was in fact Angelus that bought the judge to sunnydale, as a last ditch attempt to destroy Buffy, he thought that if he couldn't destroy her his usual way, he was going to bring the world into hell, so that she gets swallowed up in the process,i hope that makes sense!

My other guess is that Jenny's uncle had planned on Angel getting close to Buffy so she could break the curse, then he would sit and watch Giles and Buffy try to kill him, so he didn't need to, their way was for Angel to be miserable, hense the curse, because i remember Jenny saying to her uncle that people were getting killed and she had to get the spell to restore his soul, her uncle more or less said he didn't care, as long as it lead to Angelus death,Jasmine, seeing all this happening must of used all of it to her advantage.I don't believe she had as much influence as she made out she just saw an opportunity, and took it, or mind you she may have been pretending to be on the side of good till her time came.

 

[nerd4hire]

Angelus was still Angel when Spike started gathering up the Judge. The uncle didn't want Angelus dead. He wanted him alive to suffer.

On the suspicions of Jasmine in Sunnydale thing though, there's one that always made me wonder about that too. Remember in Amends when the First Evil is telling Angel about bringing him back from the hell dimension. It says "We" brought you back?

Jenny(as The First): You can't live for eternity with *all that pain*. This is what
you are. This is why we brought you back. Take her! And then you'll be
ready... (moves in to his ear) ...to kill her.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Do I think that Joss had 'Jasmine' in mind from as far back as season 2 Buffy, no.
Do I believe in the context of the story its believeable that Jasmine was already controlling events as far back as season 2 Buffy...absolutely and i'll give you the proof.
Fred.
In one of the episodes, Jasmine marks each of the heroes with what she did to get them to this point, so that she could be there, and with Fred she makes the comment 'Opening the wrong book', or something like that. We then can assume Jasmine placed the events to get Fred to read that(which could go even further back if we question Seidel's part) from the line, which, in the time line shows Jasmine was at work at least 5 years before her "birth".
This all hinges on what Jasmine says is truth, but ultimately if it is, then we can show a very probable timeline for Jasmine which WOULD include anything that has happened from, at least Season 2/3 Buffy.

Angelus was still Angel when Spike started gathering up the Judge. The uncle didn't want Angelus dead. He wanted him alive to suffer.

On the suspicions of Jasmine in Sunnydale thing though, there's one that always made me wonder about that too. Remember in Amends when the First Evil is telling Angel about bringing him back from the hell dimension. It says "We" brought you back?

I understand what you are saying, and its quite possible there is some connection, however I'm not convinced.
In fact, I personally have a theory that "Darla" in the episode where Connor has to kill the virgin was actually the First.
Jasmine and The First's plans 100% contradict each other. There is no room for both in this ultimate plan, so its my personal belief that The First, knowing of Jasmine through her attempts on Faith(First must have contacts in LA and surrounding area) sent "Darla" to stop Connor from bringing forth the one thing that could really be a threat to The First.

 

[nerd4hire]

I don't really have a strong opinion one way or another myself, but I remember during the latter seasons of Angel there was a lot of talk here concerning the possibillity of a Jasmine/First dirty political (as in "politics makes strange bedfellows") alliance.

Some of the things I remember as being offered up for support were...

* The "We" thing.

* Evil Cordelia's white eyes reminiscent of Wood's eyes when he stood on the seal

* Evil Cordelia's male voice. The First is generally thought of as male

* Ghost of Darla

* Dead Lila talking to Wesley

I guess one could add the thing Arcane brings up to the list. One might say if the PTB didn't see the Buffy thing coming, and it was a result of manipulation something with more juice than the PTB had to be responsible. Jasmine is a "power that was". Could she have out-maneuvered the PTB by herself?

 

[The Arcane]

Wow, i never thought about it like that, but what does puzzle me is why Spike bought the judge to sunnydale in the first place, if he knew that he would destroy humanity, because lets face it he didn't want the judge to, so my guess is that, if Angel hadn't lost his soul, Spike not being the sharpest tool in the box, didn't realise that the judge was going to plan it, and my poor memory tells me that it was in fact Angelus that bought the judge to sunnydale, as a last ditch attempt to destroy Buffy, he thought that if he couldn't destroy her his usual way, he was going to bring the world into hell, so that she gets swallowed up in the process,i hope that makes sense!

Nope, as N4H said, at the time that Spike started gathering the parts of the Judge together, Angel was still all souled up. It was Spike's plan (apparently) but as I said in the first post, given what he later said in Becoming about not wanting to destroy the world it does seem plausible that he had been influenced by somebody else, in this theory that would be Jasmine.

On the suspicions of Jasmine in Sunnydale thing though, there's one that always made me wonder about that too. Remember in Amends when the First Evil is telling Angel about bringing him back from the hell dimension. It says "We" brought you back?

Good point, and I'll get back to that in a second.

Do I think that Joss had 'Jasmine' in mind from as far back as season 2 Buffy, no.

In fact, I personally have a theory that "Darla" in the episode where Connor has to kill the virgin was actually the First.

Regarding Joss, truthfully neither do I, but it often amazes me how well he has tied so many seemingly seperate and diverse storylines together.

Regarding the First/Darla thing, at one time I would have 100% agreed with you because that was my theory too. However a friend once showed me an article in one of the Buffy mags where this question was raised and refuted by the writer of the episode (which I think was Steven DeKnight, but correct me if I'm wrong), basically destroying my entire theory, dammit, hehe.

I guess one could add the thing Arcane brings up to the list. One might say if the PTB didn't see the Buffy thing coming, and it was a result of manipulation something with more juice than the PTB had to be responsible. Jasmine is a "power that was". Could she have out-maneuvered the PTB by herself?

The thing is that Jasmine probably wouldn't have to be more powerful than the rest of the PtB to change the course of things, just sneakier. They had an "interfere only by not actually doing anything" sort of policy. They would throw out the usually random and occasionally useless visions but not do anything to help beyond that to effect the fate of mankind. That being the case, it wasn't as if Jasmine needed to outpower the others as long as they didn't realise what she was doing so she wouldn't have needed the First for strength, I don't believe.

Could it be that she somehow fooled the First itself though? Did she use it to bring Angel back? Maybe without it ever knowing what she was or what her true intentions were to be? She probably couldn't have returned a major player like Angel to earth herself without the other PtB seeing what was happening but it may have been possible for her to con the First into doing her work for her. Maybe by pretending to be some sort of powerful evil herself.

 

[caileybeth]

Oh...my god...*twitch*...

I have never thought about this before! Now I am all ponder-y.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Regarding the First/Darla thing, at one time I would have 100% agreed with you because that was my theory too. However a friend once showed me an article in one of the Buffy mags where this question was raised and refuted by the writer of the episode (which I think was Steven DeKnight, but correct me if I'm wrong), basically destroying my entire theory, dammit, hehe.

See, I am a stickler for saying that the writers word is lore, but honestly, i'm going against my own mantra here because I truly believe that IF Darla was part of a PtB's plot to stop Jasmine, then its against everything we know of them.
You even cite it yourself in the same post that you replied to this.

They had an "interfere only by not actually doing anything" sort of policy. They would throw out the usually random and occasionally useless visions but not do anything to help beyond that to effect the fate of mankind.

Way I see it, IF the PTB's were concerned enough by Jasmine to step in, ten surely they would do more than send the image of Darla. Seems like a totally weakass thing.

Now, the First, that had more immediate issue with Jasmine and her 'power' as the two entities were not compatible in that one wanted 'Peace and Love' the other wanted 'Evil and Destruction'. We, as society live in the middle ground of that.

 

[nerd4hire]

I've always found this topic interesting so I'll do the Devil's advocate thing to spark it.

History especially recent history is full of examples of alliances between potential enemies. The one that immediately pops to mind is America arming the Taliban against the Russians, then later having to battle that same Taliban who were armed with US weapons. Then there's peacenik Neville Chamberlain signing accords with nazi Germany.

The point is there's historical precendent for forces with contradictory philosophies allying themselves against a common foe, or for a common cause. Both The First and Jasmine had reasons to want to slip past the PTB, but there's also Wolfram & Hart. Jasmine and The First didn't get along with them either.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

While interesting to debate it, I have to say the reasoning you are using N4H is really not winning me, nor would I expect many others, over no matter what their POV on this situation is.

Lets take the things into account that you posted.

* The "We" thing.

* Evil Cordelia's white eyes reminiscent of Wood's eyes when he stood on the seal

* Evil Cordelia's male voice. The First is generally thought of as male

* Ghost of Darla

* Dead Lila talking to Wesley

The 'We' Thing.
Quite frankly I've never heard that particular argument before, and honestly, If someone truly brought it, then I would probably laugh at them and and the discussion because its unbelievably weak.
Unlike many other little bits throughout the series, this is one of those moments that to include we really have to conclude Joss new about Jasmine Arc way back then, but thats not documented at all.
Joss has stated often that he pre-planned entire seasons, BUT never has he stated something so precise as 5 years WITH so many off screen actor stuff changing the way things happen.

The Whites of Cordy's eyes.
While that is slightly better, it still doesn't really suggest much.
All this suggests is that something happened within the body of Cordelia.

First generally considered male.
Well, see this I have issue with.
I don't know about the entire Buffy/Angel fan world, but I must say, with the amount of time The First spent in female form, I always leant to the feminine.
Heck, whenever I picture the First, I picture Buffy. At the best, I would suggest its a pretty even situation of male/female ratio for the First, so I have great issue with 'generally'.

Ghost of Darla.
Well, as you know I believe that Darla was sent by The First, it seems the most plausible and the most natural of all possibilities, BUT that in no way suggests that Jasmine and The First are in league. In fact, one could say that this is 'proof' of the opposite(under the assumption for the basis of this part of the conversation that Darla's Ghost was from The First) as Darla is trying to stop Cordelia give birth early by convincing Connor its not why she died. Its also this very reason that I believe the PTB's are not sending her. They, as Arcane pointed out, have this policy of non interference except with the Vision, yet if we are to believe they are interfering in this way, we must then believe they take Jasmines "birth" as something big enough to warrant their immediate intervention. If that is the case, then surely they should send a way to actually stop the process not just put on hold and then, its only a chance.
If they have faith enough that one of their Champions could stop Jasmine, then there was no need for any involvement, BUT if they didn't believe that, then they should not have left any chance of a different outcome to actually stopping her.

Dead Lilah talking to Wesley.
This one sits wrong with me most of all. How does this one in anyway suggest a connection between Jasmine and The First.
The First and W&H/Senior Partners maybe, but not Jasmine.
I highly doubt in the First and the W&H/SP's connection to be quite frank, but we aren't discussing that, we are discussing Jasmine, her 'history' and the links between her and the First.

In summation, I have to say the First and Jasmines plans are far to ambitious and too much in the 'now' for either of them to be working with the other. I would actually like someone from the Jasmine/First grouping to come forward and truly display their reasoning for this, for N4H, I suspect your list was one made of haste as I would be interested in seeing how this conclusion was reached by them. I doubt I would be convinced to change my mind, but it would be interesting none the less.

 

[The Arcane]

See, I am a stickler for saying that the writers word is lore, but honestly, i'm going against my own mantra here because I truly believe that IF Darla was part of a PtB's plot to stop Jasmine, then its against everything we know of them.
You even cite it yourself in the same post that you replied to this.

Way I see it, IF the PTB's were concerned enough by Jasmine to step in, ten surely they would do more than send the image of Darla. Seems like a totally weakass thing.

Now, the First, that had more immediate issue with Jasmine and her 'power' as the two entities were not compatible in that one wanted 'Peace and Love' the other wanted 'Evil and Destruction'. We, as society live in the middle ground of that.

The point I made about the PtB and their usual hands-off approach probably wouldn't be applicable in this instance.

Don't forget that by this point Jasmine had played her hand. She had entered Cordy, returned her to earth and started influencing events meaning that the rest of the Powers now knew what she was up to, even if we and Angel didn't right away. This was unprecedented in the existence of the PtB and was no doubt a source of great difficulty for them when deciding on a course of action. Not only was one of their own now changing the course of destiny on earth but in doing so she had also taken from them their one method of communication with their champion, that being Cordelia. This would leave them with no option but to do something that they were absolutely against and get involved directly.

Even so, clearly returning to the lower planes was not easily possible for them or Jasmine wouldn't have had such a hard time doing so. Sending somebody else was their only hope and that would need to be somebody that could make a difference at the right time. They most likely believed that the weak point in Jasmine's plan was Connor and chose to try and influence him by sending the spirit (or maybe just a vision, you decide) of his mother to sway him away from what he was about to do. All that said I do think it makes sense that this was either a vision sent to Connor by the PtB or even Darla's true spirit rather than a manipulation of the First.

The flaw in the plan? If they really wanted to make Connor rethink his path and turn on Cordy then it should have been Holtz they sent.

 

[Angel's vision]

Arcane what you said is very spot on, I truely believe Darla was there in spirit to try and stop Conner.
The Holtz thing is interesting why didn't they use him again? It would of been great! mind you Conner by now would have every reason to hate Holtz so maybe that would of been a weak plot.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

The flaw in the plan? If they really wanted to make Connor rethink his path and turn on Cordy then it should have been Holtz they sent.

While I get what you are saying, the biggest flaw in the 'plan' is actually the fact that they do this.
This is one of very few(I would imagine) times the PtB's are aware that there is something going on that they must directly intervene. I have no issue with Darla being sent by the PtB's IF that wasn't their only plan.

They deem this worthy of their actual intervention yet they rely on one thing that isn't guarenteed to work.

The Powers have show some of their true power, it just seems beyond weak that this was their only plan.

If there was something else, some other 'sign' from the Powers, maybe, but in my opinion, there is nothing.
Which opens the possibility that the other entity on the planet amassing an army for Evil would use ITS powers to prevent some perceived Ultimate Good by swaying a weak link.

 

[nerd4hire]

Myself, I think Arcane's theory of a Jasminesque influence in Buffy season 2, BotD's theory of The First in Angel Season Four, and the old theory of a Jasmine/First alliance are all equally credible with equal levels of support. I like all three.

Oh and on the idea The First and Jasmine are too far apart philosophically to ally, there's also this -

Jasmine
No. No, Angel. There are no absolutes. No right and wrong. Haven't you learned anything working for the Powers? There are only choices

Also Jasmine allies herself with Skip, and The Beast. Mercenary, and evil.

Oh, and more circumstantial support for the general First/Jasmine alliance theory. The First in Amends, and Evil Cordelia both want the same thing - Angel as Angelus.

They both have the same roadblocks to their objectives - The PTB, and Wolfram & Hart.

And again they both on different occasions take manifestations which have male characteristics - the voice in Angel's head, and the manifestation of the true First which appears to both Buffy in the cave, and Willow after her spell in the Summer's dining room.

 

[The Arcane]

Oh and on the idea The First and Jasmine are too far apart philosophically to ally...

For me it was less about their philosophy and more about end result that made the teamup a little unlikely. To achieve an end result there have been many examples in fact and in fiction of "making a deal with the devil", no matter how good the person might be. However, in this case "the devil" wouldn't have had much to gain from helping Jasmine had it known what she was going to try and do.

Technically I absolutely believe that Jasmine and the First would have been willing to team up but what I don't believe, as I said before, is that Jasmine would have been able to be entirely honest with the First as to what her intentions were.

Basically she intended to bring about peace on earth whilst the First wanted to bring about a hell on earth. Not exactly plans that go hand in hand. I do think that Jasmine would have been more than capable of using the First to do her dirty work but it would have needed to be done with a certain amount of cunning. It would never have helped her out had it known what she had planned.

 

[nerd4hire]

Technically I absolutely believe that Jasmine and the First would have been willing to team up but what I don't believe, as I said before, is that Jasmine would have been able to be entirely honest with the First as to what her intentions were.

No she wouldn't, but was Hitler honest with Chamberlain as to his true intentions? Then there's The Beast. I never did understand what it got out of serving Jasmine. I imagine if it had actually met Jasmine God to Demon she could have done her brain control voodo on him. We don't know if that ever happened though. We don't know why a being who's only purpose appears to be murder and mayhem would want to ally himself with her holiness.

As to what the possible motives of The First might be to form an alliance, I'm not sure it would be necessary for the viewer to know at this point. We do know this however. Both Jasmine and The First wanted Angel as Angelus.

Also if there was anything to the First/Jasmine alliance theory, whatever The First was up to wasn't just a Sunnydale thing. We see almost Firstian influences in Angel Season 4, with The Beast, the white eyes, The manifestations of dead people, the male voice. Could we think of that as suggesting the possibillity of a plan B in Los Angeles on The First's part?

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how this theory makes less sense than the other two. There seems to be more actual circumstantial support for this one. That might not make it better, but it doesn't make it worse.

 

[The Arcane]

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how this theory makes less sense than the other two. There seems to be more actual circumstantial support for this one. That might not make it better, but it doesn't make it worse.

N4H, you may be misunderstanding the reason for my last post. I'm not arguing that this particular theory doesn't make sense. Far from it as I actually believe that Jasmine and the First using each other entirely fits with what we know of events.

All I was doing before was clarifying my thoughts as to why their two end goals (peace on earth and hell on earth) seem to be at odds with the idea they would work together, basically for the sake of anyone else reading this thread through. As long as you assume that if they did work together then it was because they kept each other in the dark about their ultimate goals then the theory pans out.

I actually think that you have pointed out exactly what Jasmine may have done in relation to getting the First onside when you bring up the subject of the Beast. I believe that the First had no idea about who Jasmine was or that she was a Power. Firstly because it would never have willingly worked with a being so closely connected with ultimate good and secondly because Jasmine would not have risked laying all her cards on the table, even to her closest allies, simply for fear of the other PtB getting wind of what she was up to.

I would have to imagine that she appeared to the First in the same manner that she appeared to the Beast. Some form of powerful evil demonic being with a booming masculine voice. That would account for why both beings would be willing to work with her. The First may even have been who it was that assigned the Beast to her in the first place.

So whilst I do believe that all our facts can tie together very nicely I think that it works a little more logically if you take it that the First had no idea what Jasmine really was, at least not until it was too late for him to stop what she was planning.

 

[nerd4hire]

No it's OK. I get what you're saying. Actually all three of us are saying the same thing only different. We're saying there appears to be some kind of progression of thought connecting early Buffy to latter Angel - either planned, or connected retroactively.

After that though, any speculation as to what that thought progression actually was is just that - pure speculation. As such, my opinion is one theory is as good the other.

 

[The Arcane]

True enough.

Very cool of Joss and the other Mutant Enemy writers to make connecting the dots so easy though. As I said in my first post, it often seems that purely random lines said by characters as far back as season one of Buffy relate to seemingly unconnected things that happen many years later. I swear sometimes that it really is almost as if Joss had the entire storyline planned out from day one.

One line did occur to me earlier though.

THE FIRST/JENNY: You're not supposed to die. This isn't the plan. But it'll do.

The reason that this stuck out to me is that if we assume that the First was working with Jasmine at this point and was doing this to Angel at her behest (makes sense as as far as I remember Angel himself played no direct part in the plans of the First) then clearly it was willing to see her plans go wrong. Had Angel died that day rather than gone evil again as was hoped for it wouldn't have effected the First's plans at all but it would have ruined any hope Jasmine had of using Angel and his team in the future.

 

[Schillaci]

On the planned storyline thing, I remember SMG saying that Joss told her during season 3 that Buffy would die at the end of season 5. So clearly Joss does think ahead. When creating a story you do always have to have the big picture in mind. We don't know what details Joss had in mind with his big picture, but I don't think it is outside the realms of possibility that the Jasmine storyline was planned well in advance.

No it's OK. I get what you're saying. Actually all three of us are saying the same thing only different. We're saying there appears to be some kind of progression of thought connecting early Buffy to latter Angel - either planned, or connected retroactively.

Ok, then if all three of you are agreeing then I'm afraid I'll have to disagree. The only evidence I bring to my side of the argument is the fact you are all stupid..

...

Kidding!

Seriously, I'm kidding. It was A JOKE!

The flaw in the plan? If they really wanted to make Connor rethink his path and turn on Cordy then it should have been Holtz they sent.

I don't think I agree with this.

I think by that time Connor understood that Holtz used him to get at Angel. He had started to hate him. Hate the lies that Holtz told him, lies that were basically told to hurt Angel. I don't think Connor would ever believe that Holtz would side with Angel, by being against Cordelia, this is pretty much what Darla was doing, siding with Angel. I don't think with the frame of mind that Connor was in that Holtz would have been a wise choice. Connor had never met Darla, therefore she had never lied to him.