Did Spike get a defective demon?

[bespangeled]

Okay - he got turned on a rainy London night by a vampire who had been driven insane. How had being insane changed Dru? How had it affected her demon? You walk in worlds the others can't begin to imagine - that was definitely true of Dru. It would appear that when she left Spike after season 2 she knew he would fall for the slayer and burn to death. So how much of this was Dr the seer, Dru the insane, and Dru the demon? How did that affect the demon she passed?

Next time we see him, he is bragging about the rivers of blood he and Dru will spill, while tenderly and lovingly siring his mother to save her from a painful death. And he is shocked and horrified that her demon attacked him! I mean, it seems most new vamps went on a slaughter - he got upset because his mother said he was a wimp and that implied he wanted to f*ck her (given vampire sexuality - not even out of line)

Then we see him meeting Angelus. He adores Angelus - this is the friend he always wanted, the big brother, the mentor. Clearly he is now in an exclusive club, a full member. He probably thinks he has fulfilled all his dreams - until Angelus shags Dru, and makes fun of William. Definitely new, and really a lot dim. He still has no idea what is going on, and his demon really seems severely defective! In fact, by the time they hit the mine shaft he seems more like a teen rebelling than a dangerous demon.

A century passes - William's demon gets up to speed. I'd say Angelus and Darla were classic psychopaths, while Dru and Spike were complete sociopaths - that may be part of Dru's insanity.

Then he gets chipped, and things happen - and he eventually really starts to believe that he can be a demon and be good through sheer force of will. That blows up in a spectacular disaster - so his demon goes off to get a soul. Why? Why would a demon want to be a good man? Why would a demon want to get a soul?

Yeah, Spike faced some unusual circumstances - and he had Angel(us) to follow - that's part of his choice. But was his demon defective from the start?

 

[thetopher]

Do we mean defective demon or 'speshul' vampire? Or is there a difference? 😛

Oh, but having said that Alanna Gunn tried to turn her brother Charles because she wanted him with her in their new life- no creepy incestuous overtones- so no, Spike's not defective, just a distorted prism of the memories of the man that was turned- like any other vampire.

I mean, Kralick was utterly insane (like Dru) and none of his progeny were seen to be in any way special- they died just fine.

Also Holden Webster came out of the grave and the first thing he wanted to do was talk psychotherapy with Buffy The Slayer- who he knew from high school (and its implied that he had a crush on)- that's not typical vampire behaviour either (although he was sired by Spike so maybe all Spike's progeny are 'special' as well?)

Basically I think the writers wanted to show that Spike was special but he wasn't, he was just different, like all other vampires.

 

[bespangeled]

Well, I wasn't saying special - I was saying defective. I mean my old firebird might be considered special (if I had one) but if the engine was shot, and the floor was rusted out, and there were no parts it would just be defective.

That's why I concentrated on the early scenes - because that's when it was clear that he just didn't get it. He was still a Romantic - pompous, sentimental and theatrical. I am no longer bound to this mortal coil - I have become a creature of the night. And this is at least a day or so after he dug out of his grave.

Did Kralick have progeny? I can get what you're saying about Allana but it seems to me she would have turned anyone of her old crew. It wasn't to save them from a painful death, and keep a promise to always take care of them.

Holden Webster is your best argument there - while it was clear he knew he was supposed to kill the slayer, he was more than happy to practice his psychology skills. But then, it was Spike who turned Holden. Did he pass along a defective demon? Can demons evolve - use this weird excess of humanity to survive? Mutations are usually regarded as defective.

If there was any sort of defect, I'd say it came from Dru. While she loved to see wonderful messes and play with dollies she also kept those skills and abilities that made her special. In fact, those abilities seem to have expanded. What we were before informs what we will become - that's what Darla said. But those abilities belonged to Dru - the human.

Believe it or not this isn't a special snowflake thread - I really want to examine demons. Most of them - the one Buffy stakes - are probably vagrants and prostitutes, and poor folks just running errands. No one is there to see them dig out. But we do see several that are named. Even with all of them, at the beginning Spike's demon seems - well, new and kinda dim. Really dim.

 

[Wildfly]

don't think it was Dru, I am in the camp 'your personality and character affects you even in the unlife'
Angel seems to think so in Doppelangerland. And look at the two vamps shown to us that Spike sired in season7. they seem perfectly demonic to me, and though we can preceive pretty well what the human Holden was like despite now being a vampire, while the vamp girl in the Bronze that Spike sired and then dusted seems to take a much more simple, unproblematic approach to her new unlife and behaves like a proper demon, they are both seem unconflicted about their new role and seem to embrace all the evil and the thrill of the kill, they feel freed of their old bonds. Holden even says that though he has a girlfriend, he has no intentions to sire her, unlike Spike. So whatever was wrong with Spike it didn't affect the people he sired.

I think Spike's overly sensitive and gentle human side was so different from his demon that it created a hell of a conflict. (One example - after falling in love half of the hime he himself isn't sure whether he wants to kill Buffy or protect her.)

Spike is confusing. All demons to some point retained their personality traits, but they have no conflict with being a demon. Spike has. He is grateful to Buffy not beint treated an monster, which was weird.
"I know that I'm a monster, but you treat me like a man, and that's..." (The Gift)
It always puzzled me, I mean, where is the problem, being treated as a monster,
he is a demon, he has no soul, no consistence. He himself always says he's evil. Shan't have problem with it.
so i was recommended yesterday to read American Aurora's rewiev on the subject which is excellent and answered a lot of my questions about the Spike anomaly.
I think this is the part that best answers your question.

 

[white avenger]

I don't think that Spike's demon was defective as much as simply unique in the same way that all other vampires, or people, are unique. Spike isn't a carbon copy of Dru, who isn't a carbon copy of Angelus, who isn't a carbon copy of Darla, who isn't a carbon copy of the Master. Each has a specific set of character traits, some similar to, and some radically different from, other vampires.

 

[EVIL UU]

No, it's the exact same demon Master, Angel, Dru, Darla, Holden and others host. There's nothing special or different about Spike's demon just like there's nothing special or different about Spike himself.

 

[Taaroko]

To me, it seems like the demon in every vampire is the same, though it grows more powerful with age and eventually turns its human host into something more physically beast-like. These demons are completely and joyfully evil, motivated by bloodlust and destruction. They know they're evil and they love it. I take the Turok-Han as evidence of this sameness of vampire demons. We never really get a full explanation of what the Turok-Han are, but my theory is that they, unlike regular vampires, were never human to begin with. They're the vampire demon undiluted by anything else, and they have no individual characteristics or personalities. They're all identical to each other. Whether they were created by an Old One or found their way to this dimension from whatever's on the other side of the Hellmouth, I think regular vampires were created when a Turok-Han mixed its blood with a human. (The Turok-Han stuff isn't essential to my theory about vampire demons being identical, but I think it helps unify the Buffyverse's mythology.)

If all vampire demons are the same, then what makes regular vampires distinct individuals is not the demon animating them, but what remains of their human selves (hence Angel's comment in "Doppelgängland"). The soul is gone, taking with it all capacity for goodness, selflessness, remorse. Any ability or desire to rise above base, selfish inclinations is just gone. Thus, without souls, vampires effectively have no free will. That's not to say they can't still make choices, but they're operating on a far more limited spectrum that ranges from ordinary selfishness at best to utter bloodthirsty depravity at worst. Beings with souls have access to a broader and more complex moral spectrum that runs the full range from good to evil. It's like the difference between two-dimensional and three-dimensional. Ryan, the little boy from "I've Got You Under My Skin," is a perfect example of this difference. He's a human who, for whatever reason, has no soul. Sometimes he seems normal, but if anyone gets on his bad side even a little bit, he retaliates by attempting murder. Soulless vampires are even worse, because in addition to lacking souls, they also have that bloodthirsty, joyfully evil demon. This is why it's perfectly ethical to stake vampires even when they're fresh out of the grave. They can never change for the better, so it's either kill them or let them keep killing humans. When the soul leaves, the demon takes its place, shaping itself around the mind, memories, and human vices that remain. Vampires are still incomplete beings as long as they souls, but there's enough there to create as many variations in personality as in human beings.

So there's no need for Spike's demon to be defective and no logic to the idea that he somehow retained something extra of his humanity when he turned. Drusilla being insane would have no bearing on her ability to spawn a normal vampire. If it did, Sheila in "School Hard" would've been different too, and so would Darla after Drusilla re-vamped her, but they were both normal evil vampires (until Darla began to be influenced by Connor's soul). And nothing about William Pratt made him seem a likely candidate for being the only one who kept a little bit of goodness when he turned. Drusilla herself was practically a saint when Angelus found her, the Anointed and Sarah Holtz were innocent children, Alonna Gunn sacrificed everything to protect people and fight monsters, Jesse was just a nice, dorky kid--you get the idea. They all became completely evil as vampires, no matter how good they were as humans.

The reason Spike seems so different from other vampires is that only William Pratt's exact memories, mind, and human vices could combine with a vampire demon to create Spike. Like American Aurora says in that excellent Buffy Forums thread, William is a deeply romantic, deeply sensitive mama's boy who yearns for the sublime. Take away the soul, add a demon, and you still have a deeply romantic, deeply sensitive mama's boy who yearns for the sublime, but now all the goodness is gone and something evil has taken its place. It thinks it's still William, but it's not William in the ways that matter most. William loved his mother and wanted her to be comfortable and happy. William would know that turning his mother into a vampire would be no act of mercy or salvation. The vampire that took William's place remembered loving his mother, but no longer had the capacity to understand what real love means or how it acts. So he damned her, all while believing he was saving her. It's the same thing Darla believes she did for Liam. The same thing Alonna believed she would be doing for Gunn. Part of the arrogance of the demon is to believe itself superior to humans even though it is actually far inferior, incomplete.

When Spike goes to fight for his soul, it's not because he wants to be good. It's not because he's remorseful over what he did to Buffy. He can't want to be good. He can't feel remorse. All he knows is that he's just completely blown any chance of being with her, and he's pissed. He remembers that Buffy forgave Angel for everything Angelus had done once he got his soul back, and she even started dating him again. Since the chip prevents Spike from living the way he wants to as a demon and two and a half years fighting alongside the Slayer have completely destroyed his reputation in the demonic community anyway, the only way out for him is to get a soul. His limited understanding while soulless makes him think this plan is foolproof. He'll eliminate what he considers Buffy's only valid objection to him, and then she will immediately rush into his arms. It's not until he actually has the soul that he's able to understand how staggeringly naïve and presumptuous that line of thinking was.

The only vampire who has any logical, lore-consistent reason to be an anomaly is Lawson from "Why We Fight." He's the only vampire sired by a vampire with a soul who actually survives long enough to do anything (unlike the ones Spike sired under the First's influence in S7), and his comments about not being able to enjoy any of his kills does suggest there could be something metaphysically wrong with him. I actually think it's possible that he kept his soul, but because he lacked the psychological baggage of lifetimes of evil that Angel and Spike have to deal with, he didn't have a strong enough motivation to fight the demon's influence. This would tally with how amnesiac Liam in "Spin the Bottle" seems to become pretty comfortable with the idea of being a vampire after only a couple of hours, as well as Marcus in "Carpe Noctem" when he swaps bodies with Angel. The demon's influence seems to be strong enough to persuade the souls that living like a normal vampire is just fine, but Angel and Spike have overwhelming evidence to the contrary, in the form of their memories.

 

[bespangeled]

don't think it was Dru, I am in the camp 'your personality and character affects you even in the unlife'
Angel seems to think so in Doppelangerland. And look at the two vamps shown to us that Spike sired in season7. they seem perfectly demonic to me, and though we can preceive pretty well what the human Holden was like despite now being a vampire, while the vamp girl in the Bronze that Spike sired and then dusted seems to take a much more simple, unproblematic approach to her new unlife and behaves like a proper demon, they are both seem unconflicted about their new role and seem to embrace all the evil and the thrill of the kill, they feel freed of their old bonds. Holden even says that though he has a girlfriend, he has no intentions to sire her, unlike Spike. So whatever was wrong with Spike it didn't affect the people he sired.

I think Spike's overly sensitive and gentle human side was so different from his demon that it created a hell of a conflict. (One example - after falling in love half of the hime he himself isn't sure whether he wants to kill Buffy or protect her.)

Spike is confusing. All demons to some point retained their personality traits, but they have no conflict with being a demon. Spike has. He is grateful to Buffy not beint treated an monster, which was weird.
"I know that I'm a monster, but you treat me like a man, and that's..." (The Gift)
It always puzzled me, I mean, where is the problem, being treated as a monster,
he is a demon, he has no soul, no consistence. He himself always says he's evil. Shan't have problem with it.
so i was recommended yesterday to read American Aurora's rewiev on the subject which is excellent and answered a lot of my questions about the Spike anomaly.
I think this is the part that best answers your question.

Yeah, but so much of this is after Spike was chipped. At that stage of the game he's sorta where no demon (we see) has gone before.
 

And nothing about William Pratt made him seem a likely candidate for being the only one who kept a little bit of goodness when he turned. Drusilla herself was practically a saint when Angelus found her, the Anointed and Sarah Holtz were innocent children, Alonna Gunn sacrificed everything to protect people and fight monsters, Jesse was just a nice, dorky kid--you get the idea. They all became completely evil as vampires, no matter how good they were as humans.

I tend to believe that over the millennia demons have mutated in some ways. I don't believe there is anything that remains on the earth unchanged from the time of the Old Ones, and that is when the first demons mixed their blood with humans and created vampires according to Giles and Illyria. Demons, separated for centuries in different humans with different needs have to have adapted or they would have been so obvious they would have all been staked. Yes, they needed blood, but it was more important that they be able to fit in. Unless the demon is simply a need for blood and a matter of lifting moral restrictions, there has to have been some degree of adaptation.

I'm actually not saying William was the only one who kept a bit of goodness when he was turned - I am saying that his demon seemed positively anemic and took forever to turn on, as it were. Hell, once he got started he was one of the worst (evilest?) vampires in history, but it took a rather longer time than anyone we see turned for any of that to start. You kinda make my point with the list of characters.

Dru had to be tortured into insanity before she became a vampire - and frankly if I were to call any vamp special it would be her. The combination of being both a near-saint and a seer, then tortured into insanity, and then turned is so much more complex it did seem to leave far more of Dru intact. Her abilities to see the future are definitely stronger than what we saw in her as a human but those abilities belonged to the human and not the demon. That has to mean that the demon has changed - They're the vampire demon undiluted by anything else, and they have no individual characteristics or personalities is impossible in this case. A fundamental change like that means ether the human still exists to the point of growing, or that the demon can take on new characteristics and expand them.

Alonna and Sarah were vamps for less then a day, and Jesse still wanted Cordelia. Yes, evil, but none of them lasted all that long.

Let's look at the Order of Aurelius - an order that had lasted at least since Roman times. Why would there be orders without competition and the perception that there are difference between the demons themselves? Why would there be any sort of organization between demons if they are all the same? Would it be true that demons of this Order actually are the product of breeding to be more IDK faster, smarter, whatever the Master said? All of this necessitates having that single demon split up, adapt, and begin forms of natural competition which made the splits even more pronounced.

The Master was too camp for me to really comment on but he was vicious according to the mythos of BTVS. Darla had already given herself over to evil and grasped at the chance of becoming a demon. Angelus came out of the grave unbelievably vicious. I didn't see him as a vicious man, however. I think he completely gave himself over to his demon just as Darla did - immediately killed everyone in his village. The fact that Darla approved seems to have acted as a motivator - they egged each other on. Then came Dru - and as I've said, Dru was a special case. There was reason to believe that her demon had already changed from its progenitor. William seemed to have s dud - one of the fire crackers you light that seem like they are going nowhere and then they finally pop.

That's actually another topic - what is the difference between demons that need to cook, and the ones that just pop up a few hours later, ready to fight? I know this is in large part the necessity of the show but I prefer to stay completely within the universe. The only difference that I tend to see is that they are usually dumb and get staked quickly. That would imply that time, and perhaps more demon essence, make a difference in how much demon you get. Just a thought.

When Spike goes to fight for his soul, it's not because he wants to be good. It's not because he's remorseful over what he did to Buffy. He can't want to be good. He can't feel remorse. All he knows is that he's just completely blown any chance of being with her, and he's pissed. He remembers that Buffy forgave Angel for everything Angelus had done once he got his soul back, and she even started dating him again. Since the chip prevents Spike from living the way he wants to as a demon and two and a half years fighting alongside the Slayer have completely destroyed his reputation in the demonic community anyway, the only way out for him is to get a soul. His limited understanding while soulless makes him think this plan is foolproof. He'll eliminate what he considers Buffy's only valid objection to him, and then she will immediately rush into his arms. It's not until he actually has the soul that he's able to understand how staggeringly naïve and presumptuous that line of thinking was.

I agree on the effect of getting the soul. But the one thing you don't take into account is that Spike's demon had been throttled for years. It had not been able to hunt and feed. Had this happened to Angelus I suspect he would have set up a support system of vamps (minions as they seem to be called) and managed to get fresh food,while playing holy hell in Sunnydale.

Spike didn't do that. There are a lot of reasons, but as time runs on it seems to me that the demon sort of starts to sputter. Season 4, he's still evil and finding ways to adapt. He's willing to use anything he can get. By season 5 he's so fixated on Buffy that the Victorian romantic that had been stuffed away begins to peek out, and he is willing to make the grand gesture - and he fails. Season 6 he is convinced that he can control his demon to the point of not hurting Buffy - only one person.(Yes, he has very limited vision of what not hurting means)

His AR was not just an attack on Buffy, it was a destruction of an entire belief system, an attack on himself and everything he believed about himself. This is where Angelus comes in - because there is no way that Spike would have considered getting a soul if Angel didn't have one. But while the soul made Angel a poncy whatever you want to call him - it also made Angel able to control himself. Spike had 3 choices - be a wounded and defective demon knowing that he was unable to control even himself, take a walk in the sunshine, or make the big gesture and prove he could handle the soul better than the ponce could. Which one was the challenge? That's the one he would chose. Yes, it was for Buffy - to be able to keep her safe from him. I believe that, in a limited fashion, he did care about her, and I also believe that was because adapting to the chip required change. But it was more for Spike - to prove he was unbeatable even by his own demon. That's why the demon went for the soul - no doubt believing he could make the soul his bitch, while he used it to keep control. I agree he was pissed, but I think it was more about not being able to meet a challenge - that's Spike's biggest source of pride. Either way - the choice to get a soul was fundamentally selfish, and he did learn that after getting it.

 

[Taaroko]

I tend to believe that over the millennia demons have mutated in some ways. I don't believe there is anything that remains on the earth unchanged from the time of the Old Ones, and that is when the first demons mixed their blood with humans and created vampires according to Giles and Illyria. Demons, separated for centuries in different humans with different needs have to have adapted or they would have been so obvious they would have all been staked. Yes, they needed blood, but it was more important that they be able to fit in. Unless the demon is simply a need for blood and a matter of lifting moral restrictions, there has to have been some degree of adaptation.

The only evidence I see that the demon part of vampires may have changed over the millennia is that super old vampires don’t all look like the Master. He’s bat-like, Kakistos is pig-like, and the Prince of Lies in “Why We Fight” is just super decrepit-looking. This does suggest that there may have been some speciation over time. But that’s a change in appearance, not nature. I’ll admit that it would be pretty cool if there were actually different subspecies of vampires with different abilities, but that’s not what the show gives us. Whatever slight differences there are, the vampire demons are still all evil, which is the point.

Also, they have to be more than just bloodlust and evil will, because those two things are not enough to reanimate a corpse. I think the demon is more like a disease that infects its hosts (which makes sense, given that it’s a blood-borne condition). It’s going to do the same basic thing to every body it infects, but it doesn’t have a personality of its own.

I'm actually not saying William was the only one who kept a bit of goodness when he was turned - I am saying that his demon seemed positively anemic and took forever to turn on, as it were. Hell, once he got started he was one of the worst (evilest?) vampires in history, but it took a rather longer time than anyone we see turned for any of that to start. You kinda make my point with the list of characters.

Spike was evil right from the start, just like any other vampire. No matter how much he romanticized it, immediately turning his mother proves (to me, at least) that his demon was in perfect working order immediately. Within the same year of turning, he wreaked so much havoc that the Fanged Four were all forced to flee.

What point did I make with the list? I was only illustrating that no matter how good someone is before they turn, they’re always evil as a vampire. If anything, being good only makes the contrast with your vampire self more pronounced.

Dru had to be tortured into insanity before she became a vampire - and frankly if I were to call any vamp special it would be her. The combination of being both a near-saint and a seer, then tortured into insanity, and then turned is so much more complex it did seem to leave far more of Dru intact. Her abilities to see the future are definitely stronger than what we saw in her as a human but those abilities belonged to the human and not the demon. That has to mean that the demon has changed - They're the vampire demon undiluted by anything else, and they have no individual characteristics or personalities is impossible in this case. A fundamental change like that means ether the human still exists to the point of growing, or that the demon can take on new characteristics and expand them.

That’s what I said! A vampire is the combination of a demon and the human’s memories, MIND, and vices. Being a seer is an attribute of Drusilla’s mind, as is being insane. So far, there’s no contradiction with my theory. There's nothing special or different about Drusilla's demon.

Alonna and Sarah were vamps for less then a day, and Jesse still wanted Cordelia. Yes, evil, but none of them lasted all that long.

I’m not sure how this contradicts my point.

Let's look at the Order of Aurelius - an order that had lasted at least since Roman times. Why would there be orders without competition and the perception that there are difference between the demons themselves? Why would there be any sort of organization between demons if they are all the same?

Because there are differences in their personalities thanks to the pieces of self they retained after death. Like I said. To use the Turok-Han as a point of contrast again, they have no leader or social structure because they are all the same—they have no personalities. Regular vampires all have the same demons (possibly the same demons as the Turok-Han), but their human-based personalities introduce complex hierarchies and competition back into the equation. Only the cleverest, most ambitious vampires survive long enough to become stronger.

That's actually another topic - what is the difference between demons that need to cook, and the ones that just pop up a few hours later, ready to fight

Still not convinced this is actually a thing. The demon is what animates the body, which means it has to be active in order for the vampire to even wake up for the first time. However, if a human is particularly consumed by selfish emotions right before dying, those wouldn’t leave with the soul, so there could be greater apparent continuity between the human and vampire. When William died, he was angry and upset over Cecily’s rejection. He’d keep those as fledgling Spike.

I know this is in large part the necessity of the show but I prefer to stay completely within the universe. The only difference that I tend to see is that they are usually dumb and get staked quickly. That would imply that time, and perhaps more demon essence, make a difference in how much demon you get. Just a thought.

There’s no evidence that the amount of demon a vampire gets is variable. Also, if it were, I don’t see how that would affect anything but physical strength. The lack of soul is what determines the automatic evil of the vampire. Less demon doesn’t make them less evil, because there’s still no good in them to fight against it. It would just make them less competent at being evil. (You know, maybe there is an argument there… It would certainly make Harmony make more sense.)

I agree on the effect of getting the soul. But the one thing you don't take into account is that Spike's demon had been throttled for years. It had not been able to hunt and feed. Had this happened to Angelus I suspect he would have set up a support system of vamps (minions as they seem to be called) and managed to get fresh food,while playing holy hell in Sunnydale.

I’m fully convinced that Angelus would have had that chip either out or deactivated within a week. For as much as Spike hated it, he really didn’t get very creative about how to get rid of it. And the reason I didn't mention Spike’s chip is that I don’t think it had the kind of impact on him that most of his fans seem to think it did. It was just a shock collar. He was conditioned to associate hurting humans with physical pain. That doesn’t mean he learned hurting humans is wrong; he was just doing what was more comfortable for him, but he deeply resented it.

Spike didn't do that. There are a lot of reasons, but as time runs on it seems to me that the demon sort of starts to sputter. Season 4, he's still evil and finding ways to adapt. He's willing to use anything he can get. By season 5 he's so fixated on Buffy that the Victorian romantic that had been stuffed away begins to peek out, and he is willing to make the grand gesture - and he fails. Season 6 he is convinced that he can control his demon to the point of not hurting Buffy - only one person.(Yes, he has very limited vision of what not hurting means)

I don’t think the demon sputters at all. I don’t think that’s possible. He just became increasingly resigned to not being able to hunt humans and had to work with the Scoobies for sheer lack of other options. Lusting after Buffy and romanticizing it into this great love made his muzzled existence more palatable for him. It still wasn’t anything more than lust and obsession until he got the soul.

His AR was not just an attack on Buffy, it was a destruction of an entire belief system, an attack on himself and everything he believed about himself. This is where Angelus comes in - because there is no way that Spike would have considered getting a soul if Angel didn't have one. But while the soul made Angel a poncy whatever you want to call him - it also made Angel able to control himself. Spike had 3 choices - be a wounded and defective demon knowing that he was unable to control even himself, take a walk in the sunshine, or make the big gesture and prove he could handle the soul better than the ponce could. Which one was the challenge? That's the one he would chose. Yes, it was for Buffy - to be able to keep her safe from him. I believe that, in a limited fashion, he did care about her, and I also believe that was because adapting to the chip required change. But it was more for Spike - to prove he was unbeatable even by his own demon. That's why the demon went for the soul - no doubt believing he could make the soul his bitch, while he used it to keep control. I agree he was pissed, but I think it was more about not being able to meet a challenge - that's Spike's biggest source of pride. Either way - the choice to get a soul was fundamentally selfish, and he did learn that after getting it.

I stand by my assessment of Spike’s motives towards Buffy when he got the soul, but you make a good point about Angel(us)’s influence on him. Ever since he turned, one of his biggest motivations has always been a desire to one-up Angelus. That would certainly factor into his soul quest. However, I don’t think that getting his soul on purpose makes Spike’s demon less evil than Angel’s, nor his soul better. It merely accounts for why Spike seems to be more at ease with himself and more similar to his soulless self than Angel, who is always fighting an internal war with the demon that never wanted the soul there.

 

[bespangeled]

I’ll admit that it would be pretty cool if there were actually different subspecies of vampires with different abilities, but that’s not what the show gives us. Whatever slight differences there are, the vampire demons are still all evil, which is the point.

But we do see different abilities - though granted they are limited. Dru seems to be the only vampire we see with thrall, and the ability to enter and explore minds, then create believable images. While you think this is an artifact of the mind, my impression has been that the human is now a static entity, an echo of sorts. When the soul leaves, the demon takes its place, shaping itself around the mind, memories, and human vices that remain. Vampires are still incomplete beings as long as they souls, but there's enough there to create as many variations in personality as in human beings. I tend to believe that the demon was what opened the abilities Dru had (and I count being a seer as an ability and not a personality trait). So, if the range of ability can change in the human, then essentially the human is co-present with the demon rather than subjugated. Or else the demon picks and chooses traits to expand, thereby changing by choice. Either way this demon is doing something no other demon we know is doing, and therefore it needs a different skill set..

We also see Penn with that super fast stutter walk that no other vamp we see has. Angel can do the whole Spiderman leap and crawl up buildings, while Spike leaps like that once (during the great battle) and never crawls up a building. None of these traits existed in the human - and none of them seem possible for every vampire. Is this the mind controlling the body? The demon controlling the mind? The demon controlling the body? And how does it happen if every demon is the same that vampires have singular abilities they didn't have as humans.

Spike was evil right from the start, just like any other vampire. No matter how much he romanticized it, immediately turning his mother proves (to me, at least) that his demon was in perfect working order immediately. Within the same year of turning, he wreaked so much havoc that the Fanged Four were all forced to flee..

YMMV - I think that William was trying to save his mother and was completely appalled when that resulted into turning her into a demon. Everything about that set of scenes shows a caring son following up on a promise he made to his mother. Yes, he damned her - but that's part of both what I think of Spike's demon and what he says in Damage about not thinking about the nature of evil. At that beginning stage he was all hat and no cattle - but yes, by the time they were in the Yorkshire mine his demon was in full swing. I never said he was good - I said his demon seemed to need some time to really kick in. Maybe he was, seeing himself as a Romantic/Gothic poet in search of the effulgent, the sublime, too fulfilled by being free to go into the darkness. His human conceits were so thrilled, his demon so flattered, that the urge to rend, and destroy was delayed. But I did say in my last post that he made up for it by becoming infamous in his evil deeds.

That’s what I said! A vampire is the combination of a demon and the human’s memories, MIND, and vices. Being a seer is an attribute of Drusilla’s mind, as is being insane. So far, there’s no contradiction with my theory. There's nothing special or different about Drusilla's demon.

Well,I touched on that in my first paragraph, but the question remains - is thrall a characteristic of the mind? Have we seen that every demon possesses it? Is Dru's incredibly expanded psychic abilities simply a natural progression that would have happened to her as a human? Or was the demon part of that change, in which case - having engineered and participated in such a huge expansion of ability, how could the demon not change? It's dealing with abilities no other vampire uses, insofar as we see.

Because there are differences in their personalities thanks to the pieces of self they retained after death. Like I said. To use the Turok-Han as a point of contrast again, they have no leader or social structure because they are all the same—they have no personalities. Regular vampires all have the same demons (possibly the same demons as the Turok-Han), but their human-based personalities introduce complex hierarchies and competition back into the equation. Only the cleverest, most ambitious vampires survive long enough to become stronger.

I kinda like this idea - but I would take it farther. The demon grows in strength as it ages - we both agreed on that - so why wouldn't being turned by a much stronger demon create a much stronger fledge? Natural selection at work. I am still boggled at the idea that this demon alone, in all of the history of earth, remains completely unchanged. There is nothing in flora, fauna or even geology that hasn't changed - there have been changes in human hosts, and varying needs. Even diseases, microbes and parasites change and adapt. It seems that this is such a unique circumstance that the burden would be on you to find a way to explain how it happened

Still not convinced this is actually a thing. The demon is what animates the body, which means it has to be active in order for the vampire to even wake up for the first time. However, if a human is particularly consumed by selfish emotions right before dying, those wouldn’t leave with the soul, so there could be greater apparent continuity between the human and vampire. When William died, he was angry and upset over Cecily’s rejection. He’d keep those as fledgling Spike.

Good theory - but I don't see it in anything we are shown. I'd say the opposite - being changed, as he says consistently - gave him everything he wanted as a human. It satisfied that anger, made it petty and worthless. Now the human insecurity that was part of his personality definitely remained. He needs validation, and an audience to convince himself he is visible. I'd say that need is wedded to his demon - it is as strong or stronger than his demon - because he will chose to 'do good' if it will give him that validation.

There’s no evidence that the amount of demon a vampire gets is variable. Also, if it were, I don’t see how that would affect anything but physical strength. The lack of soul is what determines the automatic evil of the vampire. Less demon doesn’t make them less evil, because there’s still no good in them to fight against it. It would just make them less competent at being evil. (You know, maybe there is an argument there… It would certainly make Harmony make more sense.)

I'm sorry, but I really see a difference between the slow-bake vamps like Angelus and Spike, and the pop-in fresh Pillsbury types that are hatched and ready to do what they are told within an hour of being turned. There has to be some sort of changed variable, IMO. I can't think of anything identical that procreates in such a vastly different time frame.

I’m fully convinced that Angelus would have had that chip either out or deactivated within a week. For as much as Spike hated it, he really didn’t get very creative about how to get rid of it. And the reason I didn't mention Spike’s chip is that I don’t think it had the kind of impact on him that most of his fans seem to think it did. It was just a shock collar. He was conditioned to associate hurting humans with physical pain. That doesn’t mean he learned hurting humans is wrong; he was just doing what was more comfortable for him, but he deeply resented it.

I agree completely. I do think it did have some effect on his mind or personality though - since we see this as changeable. The simple need to adapt ensures this. But he was still evil after the chip. It was a muzzle - a clockwork vampire.

I don’t think the demon sputters at all. I don’t think that’s possible. He just became increasingly resigned to not being able to hunt humans and had to work with the Scoobies for sheer lack of other options. Lusting after Buffy and romanticizing it into this great love made his muzzled existence more palatable for him. It still wasn’t anything more than lust and obsession until he got the soul.

This is where we disagree. I won't go the full fledged changed man/demon but Spike did things that had no advantage. He withstood torture rather than reveal that Dawn was the key - why should he even care? Getting together with Glory was far more profitable assuming she won - and that seemed a good assumption. He tried to protect Dawn - that can be attributed to his wanting to impress Buffy (but isn't that sort of gesture and motivation good when done by a human?). But when Buffy was moldering in her grave, he stayed to protect Dawn. I can't find a selfish or evil reason for that. No lust - unless you think he was really into decaying bodies. No obsession - obsession implies need or desire. He certainly didn't get much from Giles or the Scoobies - no real reason to stay there. His demon could have been reason enough to go find a more palatable living situation.But he stayed, and he said it was a promise. That's what I mean that the demon seems to sputter.

This does not make what happened in season 6 a healthy loving relationship. I believe Spike loved Buffy at this time, but he loved her as a demon loves - controlling, obsessive, manipulative - everything he was with Dru. But there was affection, and jealousy, just as there was with Dru. Equally important, there was extreme validation. That validation was a huge key in his reaction to Buffy moving on. It was even more key when he lost his center - his own validation, his own belief that he could meet any challenge. He said he got the soul for Buffy, but I would say that's a very abridged version. But he did chose to stay and redeem himself for the pain he now knew he caused.

I stand by my assessment of Spike’s motives towards Buffy when he got the soul, but you make a good point about Angel(us)’s influence on him. Ever since he turned, one of his biggest motivations has always been a desire to one-up Angelus. That would certainly factor into his soul quest. However, I don’t think that getting his soul on purpose makes Spike’s demon less evil than Angel’s, nor his soul better. It merely accounts for why Spike seems to be more at ease with himself and more similar to his soulless self than Angel, who is always fighting an internal war with the demon that never wanted the soul there.

I agree here - getting the soul as a curse forced Angel to split - but I believe that this is a spectrum and not a divide. Getting a demon by choice - considering his demon was in on the choice, gave the demon a severe spanking and made the demon cooperative. I'd say this is why Angel wants the Shanshu, the cleansing and forgiveness while Spike seems to see the whole thing as regrettable but Darwinian, at least until Damage. He is peeved at the Angel/Angelus divide that everyone sees, though. The evil done by Angel is completely assigned to Angelus, even by Angel. The evil done by Spike is still considered his fault - there is no Spikelus to blame it on.

 

[Taaroko]

I think I should clarify what constitutes the "mind" in my theory. It's intelligence level, abilities, and skills (also memory, but I listed that separately above). Drusilla's foresight falls into the "abilities" category. Becoming a demon made her more powerful, which would have amplified her existing abilities. And I think thrall is something any vampire could master, but age (which the Master has) and predisposition (which Drusilla has) will determine how naturally it comes. Also, I'm pretty sure Penn's super speed was more of a continuity fail than a legitimate unique ability. I would've loved if that had been a thing through both shows. Finally, I thought it went without saying that I considered the vampiric demon to be the source of a vampire's enhanced strength and endurance (so, by extension, all the leaping and wall-climbing). No non-Slayer human is capable of that stuff, so obviously that wasn't from human individuality.

My mileage definitely varies. I don't care if William *thought* turning his mom was an act of mercy and love, because the reality is that he created a monster. If he'd still been human, he never would've wanted that for her. One of his primary personality traits is a tendency to romanticize the crap out of everything, and once he's a vampire, that includes acts of evil and selfishness. Romanticizing his obsession and lust for Buffy is why he thinks he loves her, even though he's incapable of it. No man who genuinely cares about a woman will persistently try to isolate her from all the good influences in her life and drag her deeper into depression until she believes he's the only one who could ever want her. Those are the actions of a man (or in this case, a soulless demon) who's trying to possess a woman, with no regard for her mental and emotional welfare as long as he gets what he wants. If this is what he calls love, then he doesn't know what love is at all. And what he does to Buffy in S6 is nothing new for him. He tried to force Dru to love him using a love spell, then torture. Getting his soul was just one more way of trying to force Buffy to love him. But once he has it, he's suddenly capable of seeing how wrong he's been.

I agree that it's possible an older, stronger sire would produce fledglings with a bit of a headstart in the strength department.

Okay, wait, by "slow-bake" versus "pop-up" vampires, do you mean how long it takes between dying and rising again? If so, that's another thing I'm not sure the writers were doing on purpose. Even if it was, though, I think the "baking" period always leads to the same result: a fully developed vampire demon infecting what's left of that human after the soul departed.

I have posted in threads before about how easy it is to find selfish motives for all of Spike's actions pre-soul. Betraying Dawn to Glory is not in his best interest, because Glory won't kill him until he talks, and Buffy will kill him if he talks. His only option is to wait out the pain (also, he's too defiant to succumb to torture, no matter what it's for). He protects Dawn while Buffy's dead because he still has the chip and is no longer accepted by other demons, but the Scoobies will keep him as long as he continues to help. See? Easy. He may be able to do objectively good things, but there's nothing inside him that's capable of wanting to be good until he has his soul. Angelus killed the Beast, which was an objectively good thing to do, but nobody is going to argue that he was doing it out of the goodness of his heart. That would be ridiculous.

I don't operate under this theory because I hate Spike. I do it because I don't want to hate Spike. If I allowed, as his fans do, that Spike can do heartfelt good deeds while soulless, then I would have no choice but to completely despise him, because that seems a lot like he has free will but has still been choosing evil for the better part of 120 years. It's much kinder to the character to not allow the idea that he has any capacity for goodness pre-soul, because then he *doesn't* have free will and therefore isn't accountable for all his evil deeds once he has his soul.

Angel doesn't dissociate himself from Angelus's actions. That's why he has such a massive guilt complex all the time and longs for redemption but fears it's impossible. Just to be clear, I don't think he's correct, but I think it's very admirable that in the midst of his despair, he still manages to do so much good. It would be so easy to decide it's all pointless since he's convinced he's going to hell anyway, but he doesn't. It's easy for the audience and (most of) the other characters not to blame Angel for what Angelus did because they seem so different. It's harder to do that for Spike because he seems almost the same after he gets his soul. Now, I don't hold Spike accountable for his pre-soul actions any more than I hold Angel accountable for Angelus's actions, but I don't much care for Spike's blasé attitude about what he did pre-soul. It's one thing to accept that the evil deeds weren't your fault and learn to live with the memories without hating yourself for them. It's another to keep wearing the trophy of one of your proudest kills and beat the tar out of her son, among plenty of other things. This is why it's really not until "Damage" that I find soulful Spike remotely likable.
 
Oh, and regarding the issue of whether or not the demons that animate vampires evolve, I'm not convinced they do. Mutations occur in living organisms, not dead ones. Do vampires even have genetic material? The whole point of vampires in the Buffyverse is that they represent stagnation in a show that's about growing up. Buffy fighting vampires, creatures that do not age or change, is symbolic of her struggle to get through her teens and become an adult. It seems contrary to the central metaphor of the show that these dead, evil creatures would follow the path of evolution as if they were just another species of living thing. And there actually seems to be some evidence that they're devolving, because the older they get, the harder it is for them to disguise themselves as humans.

But if, despite all that, they actually do evolve, I don't think it's been enough to create significant changes. Because vampires are immortal, there have been far fewer opportunities for mutations to occur than in mortal organisms. And what is there to improve on? They're already stronger and faster than their prey (and new vampires in the modern day don't seem any more powerful than new vampires have ever been). They can blend in using their human faces. Becoming less evil would only make them less effective at attacking prey and increasing their numbers. Their weaknesses (holy objects, sunlight, wooden stakes, and the invitation rule) aren't things that can be overcome with mutations, because they're all mystical.

 

[bespangeled]

First off, just to be clear - I ship Spangel - so when I say something nice about one I am not saying something bad about the other. Some people seem to have a reflexive reaction. As for Buffy, I think she'd be insane to take either because they are both exceedingly high maintenance, but I also don't have a dog in the race. Whichever one Buffy chooses, Buffy will die and Spike and Angel will still have a complex and evolving relationship. And finally, I do not read the comics so I won't know comic references and I don't see them as canon.

think I should clarify what constitutes the "mind" in my theory. It's intelligence level, abilities, and skills (also memory, but I listed that separately above). Drusilla's foresight falls into the "abilities" category. Becoming a demon made her more powerful, which would have amplified her existing abilities. And I think thrall is something any vampire could master, but age (which the Master has) and predisposition (which Drusilla has) will determine how naturally it comes. Also, I'm pretty sure Penn's super speed was more of a continuity fail than a legitimate unique ability. I would've loved if that had been a thing through both shows. Finally, I thought it went without saying that I considered the vampiric demon to be the source of a vampire's enhanced strength and endurance (so, by extension, all the leaping and wall-climbing). No non-Slayer human is capable of that stuff, so obviously that wasn't from human individuality.

You've made a subtle change here. Before you said there were no differing abilities between vampires shown. Now that I have pointed out how rare Dru's abilities are, and how strongly they have evolved, you say both that they are abilities innate to Dru, and that any vampire can develop them. Age is clearly not a factor here - Dru is able to read William and thrall him when she is only 20 years turned. Since any human can't develop them, then this would be a property of the demon. So how does Dru's special abilities that come from her human predisposition suddenly become available to any vampire who practices and wants them?

As for the rest - why can Penn do the stutter walk - no fair saying it was a mistake by the writers because it doesn't fit into your world building. Same with climbing buildings, or taking great leaps. (I would have loved to see hyperactive Spike bouncing off of buildings!)

I agree that it's possible an older, stronger sire would produce fledglings with a bit of a headstart in the strength department.

Agreed - and that is the start of Darwinian adaptation. Stronger vampires would get more food and territory, and therefore have better control over who gets the demon. Competition would weed out weaker demons (or weaker humans with demons implanted). Here is where we disagree - since the demon is now an integral part of the entire being, I can't see how it could go through this process without adapting. microbes adapt with the change of one gene - if the demon is some sort of blood born parasite then it has physical form, and must change or die. Now if we want to move into the Doylist view and say that vamps represent stagnation, feel free. I am sticking to the Watsonian view that remains completely within the universe.

Okay, wait, by "slow-bake" versus "pop-up" vampires, do you mean how long it takes between dying and rising again? If so, that's another thing I'm not sure the writers were doing on purpose. Even if it was, though, I think the "baking" period always leads to the same result: a fully developed vampire demon infecting what's left of that human after the soul departed.

Doylist - what the writers were doing is probably part of this, but in universe it's remarkable. I could make a case that the human host has some difference that controls how long the baking takes - but even if that's true I tend to see the pop-ups to be weaker and dumber. They are normally canon fodder - quick to rise and quick to dust.

I have posted in threads before about how easy it is to find selfish motives for all of Spike's actions pre-soul. Betraying Dawn to Glory is not in his best interest, because Glory won't kill him until he talks, and Buffy will kill him if he talks. His only option is to wait out the pain (also, he's too defiant to succumb to torture, no matter what it's for). He protects Dawn while Buffy's dead because he still has the chip and is no longer accepted by other demons, but the Scoobies will keep him as long as he continues to help. See? Easy. He may be able to do objectively good things, but there's nothing inside him that's capable of wanting to be good until he has his soul. Angelus killed the Beast, which was an objectively good thing to do, but nobody is going to argue that he was doing it out of the goodness of his heart. That would be ridiculous.

It is easy to find them if that's what you are looking for. As an alternate I can say that Glory would be more than capable of protecting Spike. He can leave Sunnydale when Buffy dies and get a far better deal elsewhere where he's not known by the demon population. It wouldn't take much to beat a few vamps into feeding him fresh food. The difference here is the chip. While it is not a soul - it is a Pavlovian device that operates on intent. Intent is moral. I want to hurt you - I don't want to hurt you. There is a strong moral component there. (Fool For Love).
I am not saying that Spike is souled by any means - he is still evil, but he has been undergoing a Pavlovian training process that rewards some decisions and punishes others. It is his mind that makes those decisions - and his mind is clearly shown when he takes abuse that he is not willing to handle chip pain to get revenge. As an organism, he is evolving. Not a moral code, not unselfish feelings - but more of a sociopathic ability to have limited ties to a small group. You're right - he is tied to Dawn, and to some degree the Scoobies, but not only because of self interest. Self interest would definitely be his rationalization though. He is definitely still a raging sociopath - still evil - but adapting to changed circumstances

Find me a selfish motive telling why Spike cried when Buffy jumped to her death, please.

I don't operate under this theory because I hate Spike. I do it because I don't want to hate Spike. If I allowed, as his fans do, that Spike can do heartfelt good deeds while soulless, then I would have no choice but to completely despise him, because that seems a lot like he has free will but has still been choosing evil for the better part of 120 years. It's much kinder to the character to not allow the idea that he has any capacity for goodness pre-soul, because then he *doesn't* have free will and therefore isn't accountable for all his evil deeds once he has his soul.

Agreed. But I see 3 Spikes where you see 2. Powerful Spike - chipped Spike - and souled Spike. I think the chip changed him radically. William was below nothing socially - he was a Mama's boy with no experience in any kind of positive social interactions. Dru bit him, and he is suddenly on top of the food chain. He no longer has to do what's proper, he no longer has to be a meek nothing. He can do what he wants, hunt who he wants - he becomes an all out adrenaline junkie with a craving for admiration and an unquenchable desire to destroy.

Then he was chipped. He plummeted down below the Happy Meals. He needs the goddy-goodys to supply him with pig's blood. I think the three real components of a vampires like are feed, fight, and f*ck. Now he can only drink animal blood - thee is no rush, no hunt, no challenge. He can fight demons, which not only puts him in danger from the demon population but again - no reward, no meal. Chipped demon Spike needs a completely different set of survival skills than top of the food chain Spike. It doesn't change his nature but it does change his interactions, and his perceptions.

Angel doesn't dissociate himself from Angelus's actions. That's why he has such a massive guilt complex all the time and longs for redemption but fears it's impossible. Just to be clear, I don't think he's correct, but I think it's very admirable that in the midst of his despair, he still manages to do so much good. It would be so easy to decide it's all pointless since he's convinced he's going to hell anyway, but he doesn't. It's easy for the audience and (most of) the other characters not to blame Angel for what Angelus did because they seem so different. It's harder to do that for Spike because he seems almost the same after he gets his soul. Now, I don't hold Spike accountable for his pre-soul actions any more than I hold Angel accountable for Angelus's actions, but I don't much care for Spike's blasé attitude about what he did pre-soul. It's one thing to accept that the evil deeds weren't your fault and learn to live with the memories without hating yourself for them. It's another to keep wearing the trophy of one of your proudest kills and beat the tar out of her son, among plenty of other things. This is why it's really not until "Damage" that I find soulful Spike remotely likable.

So here's the quote I was thinking of where Angel does disassociate himself:
GUNN
A lot. There are over 3,200 different references. 4 of them are about you.

ANGEL
What? Give me that.

WESLEY
This is getting us nowhere.

ANGEL
Let me see this. Well, that's not fair. I didn't even have a soul when I did that. (Hellbound)

That is not remorse for deeds Angel did. There are other times he does that. Angel has his flaws, one of them being that he prefers to be seen in a positive light if at all possible. He will fudge the truth. He can also be incredibly honest, capable of baring his soul. But he does also weasel around a bit. It's part of his charm, IMO

Let's compare the history of Angel and Spike with souls.

Angel got souled. For two years he still ate humans but only predators who hurt others. He tried to get back with his 'family' believing that even souled he was able to kill and be a vampire if he could be a bit choosier about his food supply and he found out he was wrong. He went to America and rescued a puppy. He spent a fair amount of time in Vegas, was friends with the Rat Pack, and went to Elvis's wedding. He preferred Vegas when the mob ran it. He was forced to rescue a sub but was smart enough to not be available to have that happen again. He was a loner drinking blood in the fifties when he let the residents of a hotel die from a demon he could have killed. He drank blood from a dead man, and then spent the next years living in the alleys and eating rats until Whistler came along. It wasn't until Angel took on the role of helping Buffy that he became the Angel who seeks redemption and fights for the good. Angel was exactly 6 years ahead of Spike in the redemption business. He had a soul for over a century.

Spike gets his soul, and we see him for about two years. At that time Angel was still killing. So yes, the problem is that Spike is still the same mouthy annoying vampire he always has been. He spends a few weeks in the basement of crazy. The First implants a trigger that has him killing again, somehow subverting the chip. Buffy gets the ship removed. Giles and Robin Wood conspire to kill him - ironically Giles occupies Buffy Buffy by lecturing her on how she needs to make her own decisions, in order to subvert a decision she has been vocal about - for the good of all, of course. Wood and Spike fight - the trigger is broken and Spike takes the coat. Blash -de-blah. Angel comes to town with an amulet and leaves - Spike wears the amulet and burns up to save the world.

Keep in mind that at this stage of the game Angel was hunting and killing humans and following a trail of corpses to get back with the others. We see all this happen with Spike - but we never see the newly souled Angel. Would he have allowed someone to beat him to death out of remorse. I kinda doubt it. I also think he would take the coat, but maybe not. Now I really think the advantages Spike had were the years he spent chipped, and the fact that Angel had a soul. Angel had nothing - he was tossed into the pot and told to swim in the boiling water. Spike had Angel who really was the planet he orbited around. As much as he claimed to hate Angel, he followed in his footsteps, loving the same women, then getting a soul. To me it's telling that for all the love he swore Spike never even called Buffy - but then for me it's telling that Angel never told Buffy about Connor.

Oh, and regarding the issue of whether or not the demons that animate vampires evolve, I'm not convinced they do. Mutations occur in living organisms, not dead ones. Do vampires even have genetic material? The whole point of vampires in the Buffyverse is that they represent stagnation in a show that's about growing up. Buffy fighting vampires, creatures that do not age or change, is symbolic of her struggle to get through her teens and become an adult. It seems contrary to the central metaphor of the show that these dead, evil creatures would follow the path of evolution as if they were just another species of living thing. And there actually seems to be some evidence that they're devolving, because the older they get, the harder it is for them to disguise themselves as humans.

Devolving is still change. If vampirism is blood born, then I can see no way other than introducing some form of demon DNA into a human. The rest is fine, on a Doylist level.

But if, despite all that, they actually do evolve, I don't think it's been enough to create significant changes. Because vampires are immortal, there have been far fewer opportunities for mutations to occur than in mortal organisms. And what is there to improve on? They're already stronger and faster than their prey (and new vampires in the modern day don't seem any more powerful than new vampires have ever been). They can blend in using their human faces. Becoming less evil would only make them less effective at attacking prey and increasing their numbers. Their weaknesses (holy objects, sunlight, wooden stakes, and the invitation rule) aren't things that can be overcome with mutations, because they're all mystical.

Because their prey does not live a static existence, nor does their environment - particularly over millennia. Geology changed in this period - continents moved apart. Environment and weather patterns both changed radically several times, affecting the food supply. Local famines in areas where movement meant exposure to sunlight is gonna make for some fierce competition for survival. When the survivors there meet the fat happy vamps with a good food supply, I don't think they'll sit down and share. Competition creates adaptation - the strong survive. One gene can change an entire molecule of DNA, which can have huge differences in the creature sporting that DNA. The blood changed - Australopithecus, homo habilis, neanderthal, all the way to homo sapien sapien. Yes, the B-verse includes a period of demonic rule, but it also includes the evolution of humans. Illyria has much to say on that matter. There is nothing that has not evolved from what we would consider prehistory, all of that change has required change in every organism in order to survive.

 

[Buffy Summers]

I feel like if we look at demons across the board, not just vampires, we see varying degrees of "evilness". So, I don't think it's a reach to assume that the "demon" inside a vampire could have varying levels and not all of them having to be "Angelus-evil".

 

[vellavu]

Well, then Harmony must had got a toddler demon.🙂

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I just thought the demon was the Hyde to the human's Jekyll with the demon simply being a hyper-realized extension of the human's personality.

 

[Taaroko]

First off, just to be clear - I ship Spangel - so when I say something nice about one I am not saying something bad about the other. Some people seem to have a reflexive reaction.

I know that. I did read your username. 😛

As for Buffy, I think she'd be insane to take either because they are both exceedingly high maintenance, but I also don't have a dog in the race. Whichever one Buffy chooses, Buffy will die and Spike and Angel will still have a complex and evolving relationship.

Unless Angel shanshues.

And finally, I do not read the comics so I won't know comic references and I don't see them as canon.

I’ve been reading the comics on and off, and I don’t see them as canon either. It’s just too difficult to put the paper medium in the same mental category as the show medium, especially because they went a little insane at first when they realized they no longer had the restriction of a special effects budget. It really doesn’t feel like the same universe anymore.

You've made a subtle change here. Before you said there were no differing abilities between vampires shown.

What I meant was that any differing abilities wouldn’t be because the demons they all receive upon turning are substantially different. Vampires all have the same basic set of physical strengths and weaknesses that come from the demon. Any additional abilities would develop based on the aptitude, skill, and practice of the individual vampires, who are different primarily because of the differences between individual humans.

Now that I have pointed out how rare Dru's abilities are, and how strongly they have evolved, you say both that they are abilities innate to Dru, and that any vampire can develop them. Age is clearly not a factor here - Dru is able to read William and thrall him when she is only 20 years turned. Since any human can't develop them, then this would be a property of the demon.

I didn’t say age was a factor with Dru. I said predisposition was. She was predisposed to be a natural at thrall because she already had psychic abilities as a human. It’s not something she passes on to the vampires she sires, which makes it seem even more like something tied to skill/aptitude, not her demon’s DNA.

As for the rest - why can Penn do the stutter walk - no fair saying it was a mistake by the writers because it doesn't fit into your world building. Same with climbing buildings, or taking great leaps. (I would have loved to see hyperactive Spike bouncing off of buildings!)

I always got the impression that Penn’s speed wasn’t meant to be taken as something unique to him; it was just too expensive to do that effect all the time. Angel demonstrates superhuman speed in “Reprise,” and he shows up out of nowhere all the time, and Angelus does it to Jenny in “Passion” right before he kills her. Russell Winters does it to Cordy in his mansion in “City Of” when she’s trying to run away from him—at the bottom of the stairs one second, grabbing her at the top the next. Vampires all have superhuman strength, which includes the leg muscles, so superhuman speed is just part of the package.

Agreed - and that is the start of Darwinian adaptation. Stronger vampires would get more food and territory, and therefore have better control over who gets the demon. Competition would weed out weaker demons (or weaker humans with demons implanted). Here is where we disagree - since the demon is now an integral part of the entire being, I can't see how it could go through this process without adapting. microbes adapt with the change of one gene - if the demon is some sort of blood born parasite then it has physical form, and must change or die. Now if we want to move into the Doylist view and say that vamps represent stagnation, feel free. I am sticking to the Watsonian view that remains completely within the universe.

Adaptation isn’t the same thing as mutation, though. Mutation only occurs from one generation to the next, and is far less common in asexual reproduction, which more closely resembles what vampires do. There’s only one “parent” demon, so if the vampire race was started by one demon originally, than there has only ever been one source of genetic material for the entire species. And it doesn’t seem like vampire demon “DNA” combines with its human host in a way that gets passed on, because the progeny only inherit the vampiric traits from their sire. Still, I don’t think it’s un-Watsonian for vampires to be anathema to everything it means to be a living thing, including evolution.

Also, vampires are shown to be pretty bad at adapting. They use medieval weaponry in the 21st century, even though it would be super easy for any one of them, even a fledgling, to get a gun, perch on the roof outside Buffy’s window, and shoot her in her sleep. Most of them settle for living in crypts and sewers rather than trying to get a nice place. They hang out in graveyards a lot even though their prey is unlikely to go there at night.

Doylist - what the writers were doing is probably part of this, but in universe it's remarkable. I could make a case that the human host has some difference that controls how long the baking takes - but even if that's true I tend to see the pop-ups to be weaker and dumber. They are normally canon fodder - quick to rise and quick to dust.

Hmm. That’s actually a really interesting idea. What if it wasn’t something in the host that determined “baking time,” but the intent of the sire? The Master, Darla, Angelus, and Drusilla all intended to sire something more than just a throwaway minion. Still, if a Slayer had been around when any of them rose, it probably would’ve been just as easy to stake them right out of the ground as a quick-rise vampire. Maybe vampires whose sires stick around to be their mentors and companions are just more likely to survive because the mentors won’t let them make as many rookie mistakes.

It is easy to find them if that's what you are looking for. As an alternate I can say that Glory would be more than capable of protecting Spike. He can leave Sunnydale when Buffy dies and get a far better deal elsewhere where he's not known by the demon population. It wouldn't take much to beat a few vamps into feeding him fresh food. The difference here is the chip. While it is not a soul - it is a Pavlovian device that operates on intent. Intent is moral. I want to hurt you - I don't want to hurt you. There is a strong moral component there. (Fool For Love).

The problem is that he still wants to, but can’t. He tries to attack a woman right after he realizes he can hurt Buffy without experiencing pain. He even seems to savor the moment. Also, when Spike’s working with the Scoobies, he at least gets to kill things. If he ran off somewhere and intimidated himself a pack of minions, he would only be their manager, sending them out to do all the dirty work and being unable to kill demons without alienating his own minions. That kind of life isn’t Spike at all. It’s why Drusilla’s offer to kill his prey for him wasn’t appealing enough for him to leave with her. He doesn’t want a lifestyle where his chip forces him to be inferior. That’s all selfish motivation. The chip can’t shock morality into him.

Find me a selfish motive telling why Spike cried when Buffy jumped to her death, please.

Spike often cries when he doesn’t get what he wants. Buffy’s dead, so now he’ll never get what he wants.

So here's the quote I was thinking of where Angel does disassociate himself:
GUNN
A lot. There are over 3,200 different references. 4 of them are about you.

ANGEL
What? Give me that.

WESLEY
This is getting us nowhere.

ANGEL
Let me see this. Well, that's not fair. I didn't even have a soul when I did that. (Hellbound)

That is not remorse for deeds Angel did. There are other times he does that. Angel has his flaws, one of them being that he prefers to be seen in a positive light if at all possible. He will fudge the truth. He can also be incredibly honest, capable of baring his soul. But he does also weasel around a bit. It's part of his charm, IMO

Angel reacted that way in that particular case because the book was referencing a vampire with a soul. Even though Angel blames himself for everything Angelus did, he would still be annoyed if someone went around saying he did that stuff when he had a choice. And he might prefer to be seen in a positive light, but I don’t think he tries to get that from people without really earning it. When Giles doesn’t trust him in S3, he’s not happy about it, but he doesn’t argue because he doesn’t think he deserves any better. He reminds Cordy, Wes, and Gunn that if anything ever happens to his soul, they should stake him immediately, and for much of S2, he definitely isn’t trying to be seen in a positive light by any of them.

Angel got souled. For two years he still ate humans but only predators who hurt others.

Actually, he was feeding on rats. He tried to feed on a human woman in Romania shortly after getting his soul, but he let her go without killing her, and that was his last human blood straight from the source until Doughnut Shop Guy. He only killed human criminals when he was around Darla (so just for a brief period in China), and he didn’t kill them for blood. An incensed Darla points this out to him in “Darla” when she tries to make him kill a baby to prove himself to her.

Angel was exactly 6 years ahead of Spike in the redemption business. He had a soul for over a century.

I’m not sure it’s fair to dismiss that first century like it was nothing. The first person Angel saw when he got his soul was the Kalderash man who told him that now he would suffer for all his evil. He tried to reconnect with Darla, Spike, and Dru, because they were the only things familiar to him, but Darla kicked him out when he couldn’t bring himself to walk the walk anymore. Any time we saw him interact with humans in flashbacks, it went badly. The Initiative chained him up and forced him to do a mission for them. His friend Judy betrayed him, resulting in him getting lynched. If it ever occurred to him that he could do some good in the world, moments like these would have squashed that idea. But it’s still very impressive that despite being isolated and miserable, he was stronger than his demon. He might not have been fighting demons around him, but he still won the fight against the one inside him every day. Nobody in his entire existence has ever believed he could amount to anything worthwhile, and I really think he bought into that, which is tragic. However, the second he receives that validation from Whistler (and then much more from Buffy), he rises to the occasion.

…we never see the newly souled Angel. Would he have allowed someone to beat him to death out of remorse. I kinda doubt it.

I’m not so sure. He ran away after Darla threatened to kill him, but if one of the Gypsies had tried, I don’t think he would have stopped them. In “Angel,” he deliberately tries to goad Buffy into killing him, so it wouldn’t necessarily have been out of character for him to want death earlier on. I think his fear of where he’d go after death was the main thing that stopped him from seeking death out most of the time.

Now I really think the advantages Spike had were the years he spent chipped, and the fact that Angel had a soul. Angel had nothing - he was tossed into the pot and told to swim in the boiling water. Spike had Angel who really was the planet he orbited around.

Yeah, Spike had it much easier thanks to Angel’s example and an existing (if deeply reluctant) support system. I doubt he would’ve fared any better than Angel if their circumstances had been reversed.

 

[bespangeled]

I just thought the demon was the Hyde to the human's Jekyll with the demon simply being a hyper-realized extension of the human's personality.

More please!
 

Unless Angel shanshues.

Yeah, there is that. I wonder if he would be more like Angelus (gregarious and social) or Angel (introverted and serious). 😉

I didn’t say age was a factor with Dru. I said predisposition was. She was predisposed to be a natural at thrall because she already had psychic abilities as a human. It’s not something she passes on to the vampires she sires, which makes it seem even more like something tied to skill/aptitude, not her demon’s DNA.

Then it takes a human predisposition to be able to thrall, and not all vampires can master it. IMO, since it is a rare human trait then Dru's demon is dealing with - or rather has a power in it's arsenal, that most demons do not. I just note a possible place for mutation - and that is the beginning of adaptation.

Adaptation isn’t the same thing as mutation, though. Mutation only occurs from one generation to the next, and is far less common in asexual reproduction, which more closely resembles what vampires do. There’s only one “parent” demon, so if the vampire race was started by one demon originally, than there has only ever been one source of genetic material for the entire species. And it doesn’t seem like vampire demon “DNA” combines with its human host in a way that gets passed on, because the progeny only inherit the vampiric traits from their sire. Still, I don’t think it’s un-Watsonian for vampires to be anathema to everything it means to be a living thing, including evolution.

Also, vampires are shown to be pretty bad at adapting. They use medieval weaponry in the 21st century, even though it would be super easy for any one of them, even a fledgling, to get a gun, perch on the roof outside Buffy’s window, and shoot her in her sleep. Most of them settle for living in crypts and sewers rather than trying to get a nice place. They hang out in graveyards a lot even though their prey is unlikely to go there at night.

Mutation is the start of adaptation. Various mutations compete - successful mutations have an edge in food and survival. Detrimental mutations make the organism less able to survive. So we go with that one or two variations in DNA. We are dealing with a blood born virus if we are dealing with prehistoric Turok-han. Two DNA strands mutate - and this entire demon virus is a bit faster - so it has an edge in survival, more food, and is more likely to be passed on be it mitosis....you know that might be the best description of how the demon is passed on. Circumstances are always changing, as I wrote in detail before. Differing circumstances will favor differing mutations, and adaptation rewards the strong and punishes the weak mutations.

Vampires that don't adapt are pretty much canon fodder - unchipped Spike turned the factory into a tv wonderland for Dru. He had hot and cold running minions and anything Dru fancied. Angel liked living in style, from his apt, to the mansion and all the way to his CEO digs. Darla like the high life, and she did use guns against Buffy. Russel Winters had a damn nice estate, and I am very sure there were other successful vamps represent by w&H. Buffy killed the dregs mainly - which also helped the vampires higher on the food chain by ridding them of competition for food, and the danger of being discovered.

I would imagine that's why the whole minion thing got started - a territorial grab, and you either subjugate yourself as a minion or become dust in the wind. We know that vamps have some form of organization, and organization is always about protecting resources. Religion protects the soul, armies protect the land, class structure protects stability and also creates instability. These would all apply to vampires because these are facts of the human world that they live in.

Spike often cries when he doesn’t get what he wants. Buffy’s dead, so now he’ll never get what he wants.

Cheap shot - he fell to the ground weeping that he would never get into her pants. I'd just say he was genuinely in pain, mourning.

I kinda have some differences as far as the soul and emotions go. I'd say emotions come as a full set. There are not good emotions and bad emotions. Anger can be evil or righteous. Pity can be demeaning, or saintly. There is no emotion that the soul would never need so there is no emotion that is only bad - Angel is proof of that. So every human and every vampire comes with a full set of emotions. The problem isn't what they feel. It's how those feelings are used that makes them good or evil. I don't think the soul gives you a new set of emotions - it just opens the door to the fullness of feeling, shows exactly what these emotions can do - and what you have done in the past under their influence.

The problem is that he still wants to, but can’t. He tries to attack a woman right after he realizes he can hurt Buffy without experiencing pain. He even seems to savor the moment. Also, when Spike’s working with the Scoobies, he at least gets to kill things. If he ran off somewhere and intimidated himself a pack of minions, he would only be their manager, sending them out to do all the dirty work and being unable to kill demons without alienating his own minions. That kind of life isn’t Spike at all. It’s why Drusilla’s offer to kill his prey for him wasn’t appealing enough for him to leave with her. He doesn’t want a lifestyle where his chip forces him to be inferior. That’s all selfish motivation. The chip can’t shock morality into him.

Yeah - definitely would prefer to get back to the top of the food chain and let this nightmare pass. Rather like Angelus scrubbed himself of human interaction. Evil, as he says.

But the whole point of minions is that you can kill them - he would still be fighting demons but he wouldn't be doing it for fun, he would be doing it for power and territory.....okay....Spike. I think by this time he has actually changed enough that he lacks the skills and desires that unchipped Spike had. With Dru by his side he could have filled all the old urges. I truly think it's the urges, and the abilities that have changed. Chipped Spike was a raging ADHD case - he sorta lost his ability to make long term plans. He tended to take the easiest route.

Angel reacted that way in that particular case because the book was referencing a vampire with a soul. Even though Angel blames himself for everything Angelus did, he would still be annoyed if someone went around saying he did that stuff when he had a choice. And he might prefer to be seen in a positive light, but I don’t think he tries to get that from people without really earning it. When Giles doesn’t trust him in S3, he’s not happy about it, but he doesn’t argue because he doesn’t think he deserves any better. He reminds Cordy, Wes, and Gunn that if anything ever happens to his soul, they should stake him immediately, and for much of S2, he definitely isn’t trying to be seen in a positive light by any of them.

That's funny - I never got that. Book of Dark Souls - I didn't have a soul😀

I will point out that he is also willing to bribe (a new wardrobe for Cordy), flatter (often enough with Wesley) and twist things. This I see as a good thing - it keeps his soul alive. He can't live without connection, but he has to protect those he is connected to (as well as protecting the world against Angelus). Social skills were not even a gift of Liam's - Angel takes shortcuts. It's part of his humanity, part of what makes him more than a joyless fanatic. Angel is just like all of this - he's struggling but he is also finding joy in parts of his life. And that joy comes from connection.

Actually, he was feeding on rats. He tried to feed on a human woman in Romania shortly after getting his soul, but he let her go without killing her, and that was his last human blood straight from the source until Doughnut Shop Guy. He only killed human criminals when he was around Darla (so just for a brief period in China), and he didn’t kill them for blood. An incensed Darla points this out to him in “Darla” when she tries to make him kill a baby to prove himself to her.

Angel: "Look I've killed men. You've seen it!"
Darla, wearing a kimono, gets up form her seat against the wall and walks towards him.
Darla: "Rapists and murderers, thieves and scoundrels. Did you think I wouldn't notice? - Only evildoers, that's all you hunt now. (Angel looks down) You swore to me. You said, if I took you back you'd prove yourself."
Angel: "And I will."

In most of the flashbacks we see Angel has some portable source of blood, a jar or human blood packets in his fridge.

I’m not sure it’s fair to dismiss that first century like it was nothing. The first person Angel saw when he got his soul was the Kalderash man who told him that now he would suffer for all his evil. He tried to reconnect with Darla, Spike, and Dru, because they were the only things familiar to him, but Darla kicked him out when he couldn’t bring himself to walk the walk anymore. Any time we saw him interact with humans in flashbacks, it went badly. The Initiative chained him up and forced him to do a mission for them. His friend Judy betrayed him, resulting in him getting lynched. If it ever occurred to him that he could do some good in the world, moments like these would have squashed that idea. But it’s still very impressive that despite being isolated and miserable, he was stronger than his demon. He might not have been fighting demons around him, but he still won the fight against the one inside him every day. Nobody in his entire existence has ever believed he could amount to anything worthwhile, and I really think he bought into that, which is tragic. However, the second he receives that validation from Whistler (and then much more from Buffy), he rises to the occasion.

I see you dismissing the century and making excuses that turn Angel into a weak willed coward, instead of a powerful, strong willed being fighting and never giving up, IMO.

First off - can we please get rid of this idea that if people weren't such meanies Angel would have been saving them from the start? He was lynched - and in return he let every single person in that hotel die. If Angel can be haunted by that, why should we excuse it? This is part of his journey of discovering what his soul means. A soul comes with a moral compass - but a moral compass does not come with a set of instructions. He would now do anything to save those people regardless of what they had done - but at that time he let them die.

Same soul - just a souled vampire who is learning what a soul needs to satisfy it. That century was critical - it made Angel ready for when he met Buffy.

He tried it all - the high life in Vegas with the Rat Pack and Elvis - and I assume it was a temporary enough diversion, probably pleasant but not fulfilling. That's the pattern I see overall. He didn't withhold jumping out in a cape and tights just because people were meanies - he just was not ready. He had a soul. It hurt to kill - he couldn't kill. Obviously he could allow death for some period of time (Hyperion) but he couldn't kill. He hid out, he fought, he had to go through all of it to discover that there was nothing that fulfilled him. Having a soul does nothing more than make the demon morally aware. This is a negative - a lack of choice. Angel had choices to make and he was struggling to find the answer that will fill that hole, that lack. It took a century. Then Whistler showed him Buffy, and he was ready to try once more to find what his soul needed .

I’m not so sure. He ran away after Darla threatened to kill him, but if one of the Gypsies had tried, I don’t think he would have stopped them. In “Angel,” he deliberately tries to goad Buffy into killing him, so it wouldn’t necessarily have been out of character for him to want death earlier on. I think his fear of where he’d go after death was the main thing that stopped him from seeking death out most of the time.

Disagree - there was over 100 years and Angel stayed alive (undead). He fought to survive - even in his pain, he fought to survive. At his lowest point he didn't go for a walk in the sun. There had to be attacks he fought off in that long a period of time. He survived through conscious choice, and iron will. There were forms of degradation he was willing to lower himself to in order to survive. If he would let someone with a grudge beat him to death then how could he have the will it took living in alleys and eating rats. A quick beating and death is a gift in that circumstance.

And, I'm sorry - but I will take Robin Wood and the damn coat, and raise you they Hyperion, mass death, stolen money and a new headquarters. Angel is not a saint - even after Buffy rocked his world, he was still struggling - dealing with grey areas. He is struggling when he is head of W&H.

Making one vamp good and the other evil - going yin yang in a competition of who can be the most despised actually bleaches the characters into pale cartoons. It's the flaws that make the gemstone sparkle. If one was good and the other evil then you just have clumps of mud. If this is surface, then you can throw mud clots or build a pen. It's inside where the richness exists. They have individual personalities, characters and journeys. Now if you want to say Spike annoys the crap outta me, yeah - I can understand. He enjoys being annoying - he likes to be a pain in the ass. He wants attention. If you want to say Angel can be self righteous and mean spirited - yeah, he can. He can go grey - and in fact I love that incarnation - the one who poured out gasoline and tossed his cigarette to burn Dru and Darala. Hell, I have trouble being upset about lawyer wine cellar buffet. Now I'm too close to gushing but I think you get my drift.

Yeah, Spike had it much easier thanks to Angel’s example and an existing (if deeply reluctant) support system. I doubt he would’ve fared any better than Angel if their circumstances had been reversed.

Well, Spike is nothing if not adaptable. There is a chance he would have fared as well as Angel, but I agree - no better.

 

[thetopher]

Well, I wasn't saying special - I was saying defective. I mean my old firebird might be considered special (if I had one) but if the engine was shot, and the floor was rusted out, and there were no parts it would just be defective.
That's why I concentrated on the early scenes - because that's when it was clear that he just didn't get it. He was still a Romantic - pompous, sentimental and theatrical. I am no longer bound to this mortal coil - I have become a creature of the night. And this is at least a day or so after he dug out of his grave.

I only mention 'speshul' because that was the specific agenda of the writers post S5 to show that Spike wasn't a typical vamp (they stated as much on several occasions) and they...kinda ret-conned Spike to fit the mold.

In 'Fool For Love' we meet William Pratt, hopeless romantic, a bit wet but sweet and bullied/mocked terribly by his 'peers'. Then we see Drusilla see something in him and so turn him and he becomes...well, a complete badass so mean that Angelus is like 'dude, turn it down a notch will ya? We're hiding in a bloody mine!' and he says 'you better be subtle about things or a slayer will get you' and Spike goes 'Slayer? Sounds interesting.'
Basically Spike fits in well with his new pals- Darla, Angelus, Dru- all of them are fearsome vamps of note. Really evil types see?

And then we get 'LMPTM' and apparently Spike wasn't that bad when he was turned, he was all romantic and such- very Anne Rice- but his Mummy was mean to him and that's what turned him into the murderous William the Bloody. he became pathalogically violent from then on and lost himself in the violence.
It does fit with the Joyce stuff but even so, the writers could've played it a different way. William was evil but still wanted to turn his Mum just like some other vampires do.

And then he gets ret-conned again, in 'Destiny', and it was big bully Angelus that turned sweet William into a monster during those 20 years or so, which doesn't fit the timeline of FFL at all, but we have to make a point about Angel/Spike always fighting over a girl so...

Like I said- agenda. I don't believe it because the writers never give an explanation as to why Spike could be different. Nobody ever comments on it, there's no 'Well Dru was nuts so...' that's why it doesn't work- there's no answer given even though the writers wanted to show it, but didn't know how.

I think Harmony is the only 'truly' defective demon that we see- by your definition- because she is a completely non-threatening dumb bunny of a vampire for the entire first year of her existence. And then in S5 she forms a gang, gets quickly usurped, and barly survives a brush or two with the slayer before fleeing to LA and eventually W&H.
She isn't that evil, more shallow and stupid. Defective perhaps.

Other than that all vampires seem interesting and unique- even the more throw away ones.

Take Lyle Gorch- walking Texas cliche- who sired his brother, married his girlfriend (in Vegas no less) and went back to Sunnydale to avenge himself on the slayer. Different.
The Three from S1 and El Eliminati from S3 have concepts of honour so strong that they'll offer their lives in penance for failure or 'pointless duel' themselves into extinction over percieved slights.

Did Kralick have progeny?

Yeah, he turned the one or two Watcher helpers who were guarding him. The reason I mention Kralick is because he was also insane before he got turned, like Dru, and yet his progeny were just typical vampires.

I can get what you're saying about Allana but it seems to me she would have turned anyone of her old crew.

I don't think so. Alonna wanted to turn her brother, she targeted him specifically because she still loved him and wanted to take care of him just like she'd always done. It's at least comprable to Spike's relationship with his Mum.

Holden Webster is your best argument there - while it was clear he knew he was supposed to kill the slayer, he was more than happy to practice his psychology skills. But then, it was Spike who turned Holden. Did he pass along a defective demon?

I'm not sure. There was that girl at the Bronze, the other one who Spike sired- she didn't seem that distinct.
And there were all those vamps that rose in the basement simultaneously (which throws so much crap on the whole raising thing- some of those people had been missing for weeks. Urg, stupid writers) so on the whole, no Spike's progeny don't seem that special.

Can demons evolve - use this weird excess of humanity to survive? Mutations are usually regarded as defective.

But demons aren't really animals, they don't adapt well (mostly) and usually just roam around devouring things, or sometimes forming apocalypse cults that want the current world to end so they can go back to when they were in charge.
And in the context of the show vampires represent stagnation- static characters with no cares or responsibility as opposed to Buffy and co who change and grow and take their place in the world.

If there was any sort of defect, I'd say it came from Dru. While she loved to see wonderful messes and play with dollies she also kept those skills and abilities that made her special. In fact, those abilities seem to have expanded.

I thought she had her powers as a human? No doubt Angelus' torture took away the last vestigeses of control she had, as well as her sanity. Plus she had a hundred and fifty plus years to refine them.
Some vampires have special powers- The Master and Dracula could thrall when they wanted. Kakistos couldn't be staked by normal means.
One vamp cut off his hand a put a garden tool on there as penance (why does a vampire need to do penance for anyhow?). Lots of strange vamps in the Buffyverse.

What about that vampire that committed suicide on school property in Becoming Pt1?- vamp suicide seems like it should be a big deal.

 

[Silverspike]

"but his Mummy was mean to him and that's what turned him into the murderous William the Bloody."

Err,what? What version were you watching because I didn't get that impression at all. She loved William and vice versa.

 

[Buffy Summers]

After she was turned?