Did Spike get a defective demon?

[gite63]

And then we get 'LMPTM' and apparently Spike wasn't that bad when he was turned, he was all romantic and such- very Anne Rice- but his Mummy was mean to him and that's what turned him into the murderous William the Bloody. he became pathalogically violent from then on and lost himself in the violence.

Spike didn't became evil after being rejected by his vamp mother; it happened immediately after he was turned - as it happens with all the others that came before and after him! He was turned into a soulless demon!

When he came home, his mother asks "Where have you been? I've been beside myself for days." God knows what he and Dru were up to - probably feeding all over London.

And he had plans:

WILLIAM: You're a saucy one, aren't you? Dru... we'll bring this world to its knees.

DRUSILLA: It's ripe and ready, my darling, waiting for us to devour its fruit.

WILLIAM: We'll ravage this city together, my pet. Lay waste to all of Europe. The three of us will teach those snobs and elitists with their falderal just what—

DRUSILLA: Three?

WILLIAM: You, me, and mother. We'll open up their veins and bathe in their blood as they scream our names across—

William's words weren't idle threats - he had just traded up on the food chain, and he knew that, knew what he wanted, knew what he could do, for real, from then on:

Becoming a vampire is a profound and powerful experience. I could feel this new strength coursing through me.

The only odd thing about this newly turned vampire was that he wanted his mom turned and not dead, as most of the other vampires.
 

Then we see Drusilla see something in him and so turn him and he becomes...well, a complete badass so mean that Angelus is like 'dude, turn it down a notch will ya? We're hiding in a bloody mine!' and he says 'you better be subtle about things or a slayer will get you' and Spike goes 'Slayer? Sounds interesting.'

After days, he appeared at home, killed, turned and dusted his mother. Then, he joined Dru's party, and, as a newly vampire, of course he would cause/want to cause turbulence among the group, if not only because of the other male vamp who seemed to be the boss of them all. In the mine, we see badass Spike, but that doesn't mean he didn't write poetry when things were more calm - Angel said that he liked Spike's poems. Evil, but with a poet's heart.
 

And then he gets ret-conned again, in 'Destiny', and it was big bully Angelus that turned sweet William into a monster during those 20 years or so

Angelus was the worst vampire of all times; living and travelling with him had to have "inspired" Spike - the demon, the vamp, not "sweet William". Sweet William died when Dru bit him.

Or so we thought - because with the chip, Spike was able to reach him again and evolve. That's the oddity. Again.

 

[bespangeled]

Like I said- agenda. I don't believe it because the writers never give an explanation as to why Spike could be different. Nobody ever comments on it, there's no 'Well Dru was nuts so...' that's why it doesn't work- there's no answer given even though the writers wanted to show it, but didn't know how.

If it's all just retcon then there really is nothing to discuss.
 

William's words weren't idle threats - he had just traded up on the food chain, and he knew that, knew what he wanted, knew what he could do, for real, from then on:

Definitely not idle threats - but kinda overblown. It's what I meant when I said all hat and no cattle. He can talk a good bloodbath at that stage. Obviously within the next two months he learned how to conduct one.

 

[thetopher]

Or so we thought - because with the chip, Spike was able to reach him again and evolve. That's the oddity. Again.

No, it isn't. The writers want us to think that Spike is an oddity but they never give us an actual reason. They just say 'well he was different' but really there are other vampires who are shown to be more different, as I've indicated.
Spike got a chip, that's the anomoly.

And I will maintain that the timeline between 'FFL' and 'Destiny' doesn't makje any sense and is really contrived to give us an 'origin' to the Angelus/Spike rivalry that we saw in Season 2. A clumsy ret-con.

If it's all just retcon then there really is nothing to discuss.

Oh, okay. Seems to me that when you describe a defective demon you're describing Harmony. Harmony wasn't that smart and wasn't very good at being evil. Spike was very good at being evil right from the start, even Angelus was impressed (and/or annoyed) and saw a rival.

 

[bespangeled]

Oh, okay. Seems to me that when you describe a defective demon you're describing Harmony. Harmony wasn't that smart and wasn't very good at being evil. Spike was very good at being evil right from the start, even Angelus was impressed (and/or annoyed) and saw a rival.

I agree - Harmony got the diaper demon. I think her Sire was addicted Seconal.

 

[Slay me]

It makes no sense that humans have a full range of personalities because they have a soul, and vampires are all essentially the same and one dimensional because they lack a soul.

The writers do seem to imply that Dru and Spike are different. When we are introduced to them in School Hard, it is obvious that Spike cares for and nurtures Druscilla. His caretaker personality traits as a human are still intact. The Judge says that Spike and Druscilla "stink of humanity" while Angelus is free of the perceived taint. Dalton was killed because he too retained his humanity.

The reason why vampires had varying personalities may be as varied as why humans do. A dumb human probably makes a dumb vampire.
Spike and Angel were not alike as humans or vampires. They each walk separate yet intermingled paths. Angelus did influence Spike in that he forced the gentler side of his personality into retreat. Angelus encouraged and nurtured the worst in Spike's demon nature.

To dismiss Spike's changes during season 5 as mere selfishness makes no sense. He made a lot of mistakes, but Spike is very loyal to those he chooses to care about. He didn't reveal Dawn's identity because of his loyalty to her and Buffy. He had no reason to think that he wasn't going to be dusted by Glory. He again shows this when he stays to protect Dawn and fight the good fight after Buffy dies. There was no reason for him to do so other than he promised Buffy that he would be there for Dawn. He had no expectation of Buffy returning, so there was no implied reward for his behavior.

The dysfunctional relationship between Buffy and Spike in season 6 is as much Buffy's fault as Spike's. Spike sought a more loving relationship, but Buffy initiated the violence as much or more than Spike did. Since souls mean so much, Buffy was probably more at fault because she should have known better. The AR gets so much discussion, but Buffy beat Spike to a bloody pulp and left him in the alley to potentially dust without a backward glance. Angel's rampage as Angelus gets forgiven because of the return of his cursed (not sought after) soul. He did kill Jenny for daring to try to restore said soul.

Even though Joss detests Anne Rice vampire's, he gave Spike and Angel interesting redemption stories. I find Spike's more compelling because he had a natural inclination to be self sacrificing. He closed the hellmouth
by sacrificing himself. He again joined Angel to fight yet another apocalypse.

Do I think Spike's demon was defective? No. I think he retained part of his humanity which tempered his demon. The influence of Angelus, Darla and Dru shaped his first century as a vampire. The fact that he actively sought out Slayers and preferred a fair fight speaks to a nature different than most vampires.

 

[bespangeled]

Do I think Spike's demon was defective? No. I think he retained part of his humanity which tempered his demon. The influence of Angelus, Darla and Dru shaped his first century as a vampire. The fact that he actively sought out Slayers and preferred a fair fight speaks to a nature different than most vampires.

I can go with a lot of this - but the Spike we saw researched was one of the worst vampires in history. In season 2, he was very caring of Dru, but he killed others with great enjoyment. In season 7 he was very insistent that he be staked, and that no one in Sunnydale had ever seen what he was capable of.

James and Elizabeth were together fr over a century and in love - when she was killed he gave up the rest of his life for revenge against Angel.

My query was whether his demon was defective - weak, and a kind of slow starter - and then was naturally more likely to fade once he was chipped.

 

[Slay me]

My query was whether his demon was defective - weak, and a kind of slow starter - and then was naturally more likely to fade once he was chipped.[/QUOTE]

In my opinion, his demon wasn't weak. He retained a part of his humanity. After his turning he did terrible things, but William was still there to some extent. Turning his mother was to save her from

 

[bespangeled]

My query was whether his demon was defective - weak, and a kind of slow starter - and then was naturally more likely to fade once he was chipped.

In my opinion, his demon wasn't weak. He retained a part of his humanity. After his turning he did terrible things, but William was still there to some extent. Turning his mother was to save her from[/QUOTE]

I think that those are two halves - weak demon allows more human. 😉

 

[Slay me]

After pondering your question further, a defective demon might be part of the equation. What is it that made some vampires more like their human counterparts ie Spike and Harmony? Drusilla and Anne were both moral humans, but their demons seemed to have greater control. Did Spike maintain more of his humanity because his demon was somehow defective? Spike was capable of great evil for much of his existence, but even in that he was different than Darla and Angelus. It's interesting to ponder the reasons for the variability in the nature of different vampires in the Whedenverse.

 

[GoSpuffy]

I think he had a superior demon. The whole family (the master, Darla, Angel, Drew, Spike) were strong. They just exhibited their strengths differently. Oddly they all seem to be lovers and fighters. The master and Darla were in love until Angel, Angel and Darla definitely loved more than your average run of the mill vamp, Dru loved Daddy and Grandmother even though they had made her crazy, and of course Spike and Dru. Maybe the ability to love greatly also allows you to fight better because you are fighting for something other than just yourself.

 

[Iwearthecheese]

All demons are basically the same except for their host memories that shape them. There are no 'more/less potent' demons just vampires who are smart enough to last a very long time. The Master & Kakistos are two examples (also Lothos if he counts).

Spike just seemed different. He turned his Mum because he couldn't bear to be without her in his new life, but other vampires have done that. Gunn's sister (can't remember her name) wanted to take care of Charles once she got turned. It's rarer- most vampires kill their family first it seems- but not unique.
Spike certainly had no trouble 'keeping up' with the rest of the gang. A year after being turned and their all complaining about how much he's killing and drawing attention. All newbie vamps straight out of the ground probably need time to adjust to the grand levels of slaughter they plan to inflict- Spike just got a headstart because of the company he kept.

 

[gite63]

All demons are basically the same except for their host memories that shape them.

As Darla said (The Prodigal):

Darla: This contest is ended, is it?
Angel: Now I’ve won.
Darla: You’re sure?
Angel: Of course. I proved who had the power here.
Darla: You think?
Angel: What?
Darla: You’re victory over him took but moments.
Angel: Yes?
Darla: But his defeat of you will last life times.
Angel: What are you talking about? He can’t defeat me now.
Darla: Nor can he ever approve of you – in this world or any other. - What we once were informs all that we have become. The same love will infect our hearts – even if they no longer beat. Simple death won’t change that.
 

Gunn's sister (can't remember her name) wanted to take care of Charles once she got turned. It's rarer- most vampires kill their family first it seems- but not unique.

Angelus killed his family because he wanted to defeat his father - he hated him. Spike wanted to save his mother - because he loved her.

 

[Iwearthecheese]

Angelus killed his family because he wanted to defeat his father - he hated him. Spike wanted to save his mother - because he loved her.

Angelus killed Dru's entire family too- hence her always looking for a replacement one when she's a vampire.
Penn killed his entire family (and over and over...)
I'm sure that most vampires do kill their families.

But lets not romanticise- Liam's father was rotten to him and Anne Pratt doted on her son- no surprise that they reacted the way they did.
And although Angelus killed his family, Spike still killed and damned his mother, and ended up staking her anyway.

 

[GoSpuffy]

Spike still killed and damned his mother, and ended up staking her anyway.

Spike new his mother was dying, he killed his mother to save her. I'm sure if she had not been sick he would not have turned her.

 

[Iwearthecheese]

Spike knew his mother was dying, he killed his mother to save her. I'm sure if she had not been sick he would not have turned her.

Firstly- he still 'killed' her even if his reasons were more noble than Angelus' wanton slaughter. I know he didn't think of it that way- vampires with souls don't.

Secondly I really think that, even if his mother had been in rude health- Spike still would've wanted her with him. He certainly wouldn't have killed her and he also wouldn't have left her alone- she was everything to him. So the only alternative was to make her like him and bring her with him and Dru.

 

[gite63]

Spike new his mother was dying, he killed his mother to save her. I'm sure if she had not been sick he would not have turned her.

I'm not sure of that; maybe he wouldn't have killed and turned her, and would kept visiting from time to time? But she was old, and she would die soon, anyway. And what was important to him was keeping her by his side.

 

[Sternbeeere]

There might be different reasons answers to that questions:
1. There is some intermingle with a demon, which is always the same and a vampires former human personality and hence always a different result.
As for Drusilla she might have had some hidden/suppressed traits that the demon in her brought to surface. Also her character is not really truly explored in the way Spike is and we do not know, why her purity traits vanished and evil traits came out so strong.
2. Drusilla became a nun before she was turned, and maybe in Whendonverse, this means something and she passed something else along with the demon to Spike.
3. Demon does not equal demon, maybe not in terms of defective, but maybe in terms of personality, way of possessing and that like, which means as all demons are different and thus all Vampires are.
4. There is really a change in the very being in Spikes demon, but we do not see his progeny, so there is not any proof for that. For me the fourth option is unlikely.

 

[Sternbeeere]

There might be different reasons answers to that questions:
1. There is some intermingle with a demon, which is always the same and a vampires former human personality and hence always a different result.
As for Drusilla she might have had some hidden/suppressed traits that the demon in her brought to surface. Also her character is not really truly explored in the way Spike is and we do not know, why her purity traits vanished and evil traits came out so strong.
2. Drusilla became a nun before she was turned, and maybe in Whendonverse, this means something and she passed something else along with the demon to Spike.
3. Demon does not equal demon, maybe not in terms of defective, but maybe in terms of personality, way of possessing and that like, which means as all demons are different and thus all Vampires are.
4. There is really a change in the very being in Spikes demon, but we do not see his progeny, so there is not any proof for that. For me the fourth option is unlikely.

Addition: Just read in season 10 comics, that a watchers theory says, a Vampire is a mingle with a demon with a human personality of the vampire in question, interestingly this mingle happens mostly with a persons darkest parts. Thus Anne Pratts behaviour towards her son can be explained with her expressing some of her own dark, suppressed thoughts and Spike being different with having lower, different darkest sites. Contrary to Angelus, whose personality is dark as a whole, even in human form. Also Drusilla, Darla, Angelus and the Master all have the same demon, again unlikely it changes. The Drusilla being nun-thing still might have an influence though.