Did Spike seem weaker in S5?

well in tearms of spike being the "big bad" he get's softer when he falls in love with buffy..
 
Just chiming in about that Spike/Doc face off... who else thought it was SO lame? It was like Spike didnt even try, or i dunno, maybe they just didnt have time in the episode to include a longer fight scene but it seemed SO cheap to me. Everytime isee that part it aggravates me.
 
white avenger said:
Several items have been covered here, and I have a theory on each, so here goes:

1) The Troll Hammer--The fact that Spike could not lift it at all while Buffy easily could probably be explained more easily if we consider it as an enchanted hammer that only its owner could wield (think of Thor's hammer in the Marvel comics. Only Thor can lift it). Spike couldn't lift it because he wasn't Olaf. Buffy, on the other hand, could lift it because she had vanquished Olaf and had, in doing so, inherited the hammer and the ability to lift and use it. (Its physical weight couldn't have been all that great, because it was setting on a glass display shelf in the Magic Box, which gives rise to the question of just how they got it up there in the first place if it was so heavy)

2) Slayer Strength vs Vampire Strength--Angel once made the statement that Buffy was stronger than him. Other than that, no real comparison was ever made except Luke's statement in "Welcome To The Hellmouth," when he said, "You're strong. I'M STRONGER." Obviously the Slayer isn't stronger than EVERY vampire, and it was never stated anywhere that vampire strength is relative to physical size. Spike could be as strong as, or even stronger than, Buffy. Certainly she never decisively beat him in a fight, though she did beat Angel when he was Angelus. Does that mean that Spike is stronger than Angel? Maybe yes, maybe no. Nothing was ever established on either show.

3) Spike vs Doc--Doc beat Spike for the simple reasons that Spike underestimated the much less dangerous seeming demon, plus the fact that on the relatively narrow catwalk there was no room for him to move around as was his strong point in a fight.
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Wait - between Spike and Angel, we do get a decisive answer over who's stronger. In AtS season 5, Spike beats the bejesus out of Angel once and for all. The ONLY time Angel can take Spike is when he's a puppet, and that's because Spike's laughing the whole time. lol. Also, in season 1, Spike was able to capture Angel in order to have him tortured. I was always under the impression that in direct hand-to-hand combat, Spike was the stronger of the two. When it came to strategy and finesse, Angel(us) won hands down. Didn't they go over that in their flashback in FFL, too? Angel(us) complained that Spike always took unnecessary risks or something and Spike acted surprised that his old grandsire didn't like to feel the rush. Also, Spike took down two slayers. Angel(us) avoided slayers. I always thought that was part of their power dynamic issue: Angel(us) felt the need to put Spike in his place and to go for the more artistic kills because he felt threatened by Spike.

As far as Buffy goes, well, I always thought the slayer was supposed to be stronger than just about any vampire. She's supposed to be able to take on nests and gangs of vampires and stop the nearest impending apocalypse and stuff. That said, I agree with the theory about the enchanted hammer and about how Spike and Angel look weak when they're compared to Buffy. They're stronger than pretty much everything else out there, but they're not stronger than the slayer. Spike and Angel have centuries of experience plus a huge size advantage on nearly any slayer. That's why older, more experienced vamps like them are able to knock her around so much more than fledglings. But she still escapes even their worst bouts with nary a mark, while they both usually come away from fights with her severely injured or more dead than usual. I mean, Spike got his scar from a slayer. He also got bruises from Buffy. And he was paralyzed. Only Glory (a God) and the First's uber vamp were able to hurt him more than Buffy could, and who's to say what she could/would have done if she'd had torture on the brain rather than killing? With Angel(us), Buffy held back more, but he was eventually out-and-out killed by her. Besides, didn't Spike already explain why he was able to kill two slayers? They had a death wish. The same certainly applies to Faith when Angel beat her. The first time, the fight even ended with her asking him to end it. The second time, when he was Angelus, she was deliberately holding back because she didn't want to kill Angelus; she wanted to bring Angel back. So, no; I don't think Spike was weaker in season 5. I think he just looked that way in comparison to the freakin' slayer, who is supposed to be the big kahuna in the demon world.

As for the doc thing... I always thought that was lame. I really think they just didn't have enough time in the episode for Spike to have a knock-down drag-out with tongue guy.
 
Lyle said:
Hmm yeah that all makes sense. Thanks for explaining. One more idea I just thought of, which kinda goes back to the fighting on instinct idea a bit, is that maybe Spike got a little soft after he got the chip in his head. He starts spending a lot more time around the Scoobies, who take care of him, and he only fights the occasional demon. He gets a little domesticated, if that makes sense, kind of like turning a wild dog into a house pet. He can still fight, but he doesn't have as much of a killer instinct. That combined with the pressure of having to save Dawn is probably what does it when he fight's Doc.

Thanks for the replies 🙂
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Like I mentioned before Spike got neutered. It was one of the downpoints of the Spike character but we did get some funny moments with Spike tied up in the chair trading quips with Xander and it led to Spike getting his soul back. I still liked Spike in Season 2 but I also liked him in Season 7 as he got used to his soul. My favorite episode was where Spike faced off against Principal Woods and beat the tar out of him. Spike then tells Buffy if Wood even looks at him funny Spike will kill him. That was when the classic Spike came back, soul, champion and all.
 
As for the doc thing... I always thought that was lame. I really think they just didn't have enough time in the episode for Spike to have a knock-down drag-out with tongue guy.
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also, not really his time to become the hero just yet - so he had to be defeated.
 
Beginning in Season 5, Spike began living on a steady diet of animal blood. That might have weakened him until his metabolism adjusted to the difference. Also, from Season 5 on, he wasn't as much the predator as he had been in the past, getting most of his action by helping Buffy and the gang stake fledglings (formidable, certainly, but hardly much of a challenge for a fighter like Spike), with only the occasional demon tossed in for variety. He might simply have gotten sloppy from not having to face any real challenge. Supporting that last is the statement Spike made to Angel in Season 5 that working with Illyria was sharpening techniques he didn't even know were rusty.

Spike is, if nothing else, a consummate warrior. He thrives on challenge and conflict, as we have seen many times in the past, most notably with his killing of two Slayers, the first when he was a rather inexperienced fighter. The tougher the opponent, the better he likes it, and the more dangerous he becomes. That is one of the things he has in common with Buffy, one of the reasons they are so well matched (no, I'm not speaking about a Spuffy thing here, I'm talking about two fighters). Angel was never her equal. By his own admission and as we saw more than once, Buffy could beat him anytime she wanted to. In fact the only real opponent either Buffy or Spike ever had, the only one either ever went toe to toe, face to face with and never decisively beat was each other.
 
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