Did Spike want his soul back?

Ahh Spike/Buffy the relationship where the guy can keep calling the women a bitch and it's seen as cute...

But just cuz he's called her a bitch a few times doesn't mean he didn't mean it vengefully this time, he said it spitefully, he said it in jest the times before that.

I think it makes sense that the demon was a vengeance demon, as others have said why go to a demon to get your soul back.
 
Since we know that the set-up was a misdirect, the line "bitch is gonna see a change" is pretty obviously part of the writers' "plot" to "confuse" us by making us think Spike wants to hurt Buffy. (Which again, remember that he already *can* with the chip intact).

So, when he says "bitch" here, aside from basically bad writing, I think it's more to do with the projected anger that he feels toward what he did. He's disgusted with himself; that's clearly shown all over his face in the aftermath of the AR. But because he's a vampire and utterly confused by the guilt he ('s not supposed) to feel, he projects the rage onto Buffy, essentially blaming her, and we have that "bitch is gonna see a change" sentiment. Credit to [MENTION=12223]EffyStonem[/MENTION] for thinking of this, btw--it hadn't occurred to me, before.

Other instances of Spike using the word "bitch" I wouldn't call cute, but in season 5, "Out for a walk...bitch," certainly is funny. She said "five words or less," and he answered in 4, adding "bitch" because she'd given him such a difficult time about it. Believe me I'd never be ok with a man calling me a bitch to my face but somehow a soulless vampire doing it is sort of akin to a human being sneezing.

And of course "I'm free if that bitch dies...I'd better help her out" is such a telling line. It's truly a foreshadowing of the events to come in Seeing Red, I think. As I was saying before, this soulless vampire feels so much affection for a human being and on some level, genuinely regrets it and resents her for it. A lot of the time, we only see how devoted he is to her, or toward impressing her. This is a reminder that, because he is in fact soulless, instead of delighting in his love--basking in it--he is terrified by it and by the fact that it keeps him in line, doing the things Buffy wants him to do, saving Buffy instead of doing what his nature tells him to do: hurt her, or at the very least, make her life miserable.

In a way, "I'm free if that bitch dies...I'd better help her out" is very much what is going on in his head when he goes to Africa. After the AR, he realizes just how much he cares about the possibility of losing her, and just how frightening the concept is to him that it could ever be by his own hands. It would be so much easier to not care; to "be a monster." To let her die, to physically torment her like he should want to do. But he's certain now that he "can't be (that) monster." But can he be a man? Not without a soul; he doesn't quite know why, but Buffy has shown him that that's the case. So the best option is to get that soul and to "help her out," which, while soulless, he thinks essentially means becoming like Angel--becoming her partner, in a romantic relationship. After receiving the soul, he realizes that it means being there for her, without the right to have other expectations, in light of what he'd done to her.
 
In a way, "I'm free if that bitch dies...I'd better help her out" is very much what is going on in his head when he goes to Africa. After the AR, he realizes just how much he cares about the possibility of losing her, and just how frightening the concept is to him that it could ever be by his own hands. It would be so much easier to not care; to "be a monster." To let her die, to physically torment her like he should want to do. But he's certain now that he "can't be (that) monster." But can he be a man? Not without a soul; he doesn't quite know why, but Buffy has shown him that that's the case. So the best option is to get that soul and to "help her out," which, while soulless, he thinks essentially means becoming like Angel--becoming her partner, in a romantic relationship. After receiving the soul, he realizes that it means being there for her, without the right to have other expectations, in light of what he'd done to her.

There is a remarkable parallel to Anya who loses her taste for vengeance after spending time with the basically decent Xander. No longer had a taste for the old world, didn't belong in the new, this was the description of both Spike and Anya. Not surprising they got it on together and it would have been an interesting 'ship, but Spuffy was the overshadowing relationship of Season 7.
 
Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
very true
I don't think it was Spike's intention to get his soul back. I've watched the show what feels like hundreds of times now and I still don't get the feeling that he wanted his soul. I think it was very clear that Spike went on that quest with the intent of getting the chip removed so he could be the monster he used to be, but that the demon twisted it around on him and gave him his soul instead.
I've read the interviews and things where the writers have said "Spike wanted his soul back for Buffy" way after the fact. However, I think the writers often say things to appease the fans, and I think this was definitely one of those times. If Spike wanted his soul back, why was it written the way it was?
 
I'm convinced that Spike really went there to get his soul back.
Mostly because I don't think he is acting like he got tricked afterwards, during season 7.

Don't really mind the overly used plot twist device either.
It worked well enough for me when watching for the first time.
I got myself a really nice wow moment if I recall correctly.

I agree that it really doesn't hold up when you starting to analyse it more closely though. (which we have done here, at length... 😉).

But I don't think the writers really care about that.
Would guess that the first moment surprise is more important to them.
Which I have no problem with. Not on a show like Buffy anyway. The plot is all over the place already as it is so...

/SK
 
Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
[No message]
I don't mind a surprise, but as has been said, when you go back and watch it again you should see the clues. Bad writing. I can also remember not getting that he had a soul again until I read it on here lol
 
Between Angel and Spike becoming vampires and them getting their souls back; where were their souls?

Were their souls in heaven? Would they not have then had some sort of dual personality with memories of both heaven and two hundred years of carnage?
 
I don't think it was Spike's intention to get his soul back. I've watched the show what feels like hundreds of times now and I still don't get the feeling that he wanted his soul. I think it was very clear that Spike went on that quest with the intent of getting the chip removed so he could be the monster he used to be, but that the demon twisted it around on him and gave him his soul instead.
I've read the interviews and things where the writers have said "Spike wanted his soul back for Buffy" way after the fact. However, I think the writers often say things to appease the fans, and I think this was definitely one of those times. If Spike wanted his soul back, why was it written the way it was?

Really interesting post. When I watched it, I fell for the plot twist hook, line and sinker. And to be honest it never even really crossed my mind that he might not have been seeking out his soul the entire time. But when you look at it and think about it for more than a second, the possibility that he wasn't looking for his soul has to be acknowledged.

I think Joss' explanation of it pissed me off more than anything. "I personally devised something called a plot twist". Grrr...Does it get more arrogant than that? You conjured up the idea for a crappy scene that half your audience couldn't get because you basically said one thing and then did the exact opposite. And then you come up with some sarcastic...uh..."witty" line to try to make it go away? Lame. He screwed up. Plain and simple.

(Sorry for the ramble. I actually really like Joss. But sometimes in interviews he just drives me insane...)
 
Buffy Summers
Buffy Summers
[No message]
I
itssmiletime
[No message]
Ethan Reigns
Ethan Reigns
[No message]
The other thing that's annoying about the "plot twist" is the fact that it took place over like 3 episodes. It's like "oooh we're gonna make you think something else is happening" and then two seconds later, "see? Fooled you!" I mean if it were like a season long arc where you think that one character is a certain way and then it's revealed in the finale that something entirely different was happening, then sure. But this was just pointless, honestly...

My initial take, when I saw it, was that "make me like I was" meant he was asking to be made into a human being--so that no one could ever accuse him of being a monster again--of course, not understanding that one can be a monster with a soul, too.
 
R
Robb Stark
[No message]
I don't know whether or not I've ever mentioned this before,but back when "Buffy"and "Angel" were still in production,the WB had an "official" Buffy and Angel forum,which ran until after "Angel" left the air. I was a member there,and I remember around the middle of Season 5, we started hearing rumors of Joss considering giving Spike a soul, and the general consensus on the forum, even from people who didn't support the Buffy/Spike relationship, was favorable. Then, beginning during the beginning of Season 6, there was a "Who'll Give Spike 10% Of Your Soul?" campaign, and the results were that Spike received enough for several dozen souls months before the actual event happened. I can't swear that we were instrumental in the actual event,but I've always always felt hoped that we helped Joss make the final decision.
 
I don't know whether or not I've ever mentioned this before,but back when "Buffy"and "Angel" were still in production,the WB had an "official" Buffy and Angel forum,which ran until after "Angel" left the air. I was a member there,and I remember around the middle of Season 5, we started hearing rumors of Joss considering giving Spike a soul, and the general consensus on the forum, even from people who didn't support the Buffy/Spike relationship, was favorable. Then, beginning during the beginning of Season 6, there was a "Who'll Give Spike 10% Of Your Soul?" campaign, and the results were that Spike received enough for several dozen souls months before the actual event happened. I can't swear that we were instrumental in the actual event,but I've always always felt hoped that we helped Joss make the final decision.

I'm not sure when the idea of Spike regaining his soul was initially brought up or thought of, but I'm glad they did it. It's actually, character wise, one of my favorite things they ever did.
 
I think giving Spike a soul made him a little more interesting, but since it had already been done with Angel I thought it kinda cheapened it a little, you know? I mean what's so special about a vampire with a soul if any good witch can restore a vampire's soul for them?
 
Back
Top Bottom