Did Warren Deserve to Die

[Robb Stark]

So he'd only have been charged with shooting Buffy and given that (in the eyes of the courts) Buffy walked about okay the next day, Warren would probably have been given a probation.

That doesn't matter. Attempted murder is still attempted murder, no matter how bad your attempt is. He went to Buffy's house with a gun of his own free will, shot her, and fled. In any civilized country, it'd be a lock, regardless of whether or not Buffy was okay. In Canada or the U.S., you'd get 20 years for that. Minimum.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Wesley Pryce disagrees: well then youre evil

Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but I stand by my opinion. And by the way, it's you're. 😉
I think Warren deserved to die, but not the way he died in the show, as I said in my original post. Everything he did leading up to Tara's death was atrocious; he was a horrible, twisted person.

 

[Robb Stark]

When you make a conscious decision to end another's life when you literally have it in your hands, outside of a court system, and you have other options, then you aren't a hero anymore.

 

[Blaze]

When you make a conscious decision to end another's life when you literally have it in your hands, outside of a court system, and you have other options, then you aren't a hero anymore.

Completely agree, but I also think anyone in the right circumstances could become a killer like Willow did. Let's say a man raped and killed your 10 year old daughter and you were faced with that man, I don't think the consequences would matter to you any more, because that man just destroyed your whole life. If you are pushed to that limit where consequences don't matter and the person "deserves" it, I think anyone would have the power to kill. It doesn't make it right, and you certainly aren't a hero, but I can see the logic behind it. And if my friend became a killer in such a way, I would most likely forgive them.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

When you make a conscious decision to end another's life when you literally have it in your hands, outside of a court system, and you have other options, then you aren't a hero anymore.

I dont see how the courts are relevant. If they were Buffy should have been helping out with closing missing people cases and should have phoned the police when the trio first started up.

The police couldn't handle the trio, and Warens court case couldn't have been handled by the courts so they're irrelevant.

Yes Warred deserved to die, and deserved to die the way he did, he wanted to be part of that world, he got to die as part of that world. I like it even better that he didn't actually die die until a year later when he thought he'd gotten away from everything, Buffy breaks the seed and he just dies, never saw it coming.

 

[Kean]

Absolutely not.

In the real world I don't believe in the death penalty, and in verse I absolutely don't believe Willow (or any of the Scoobies) gets to make decisions on who lives and dies. Especially when they make them so arbitrarily. Warren the human doesn't get a shot at amends, but Angel and Spike the serial murders get chance after chance?

Warren was utterly despicable but Willow had no right to make that call and quite frankly, the cruelty of the manner in which she killed him was appalling, certainly on par (if not worse) with anything Warren did himself.

 

[white avenger]

I think that Joss deliberately, conveniently, sidestepped the morality issue in this case by having "Dark" Willow kill Warren rather than "normal" Willow, sort of the same way that he excuses Angel and Spike with the supposition that the vampires are essentially new men once they obtain their souls, therefore not deserving of punishment for their soulless crimes.

As to whether Warren deserved to die, as much as I believe in the sanctity of human life, as much as I believe that lethal force is excusable under only the most extreme, unavoidable circumstances, I still have to say that, if there ever was anyone in the entire Buffyverse who deserved killing, he would have been the one.

Granted, Willow did not have the authority to judge or execute him in the real world and go unpunished, but such distinctions don't seem to matter in the Buffyverse.

 

[Icarium]

As to whether Warren deserved to die, as much as I believe in the sanctity of human life, as much as I believe that lethal force is excusable under only the most extreme, unavoidable circumstances, I still have to say that, if there ever was anyone in the entire Buffyverse who deserved killing, he would have been the one.

Why exactly? From a practical point of view Warren could be sent to jail unlike most other demons and human murderers we saw in the show, so there was no need for Willow or anybody else to be the vigilante in his case. From a moral point of view, Warren is a small time crook compared to Anya, Spike, Angel, Faith, Willow and dozens of other characters in the Buffyverse.

The police couldn't handle the trio, and Warens court case couldn't have been handled by the courts so they're irrelevant.

The police in Sunnydale might be grossly incompetent but if some vigilant citizen, say Buffy, were to hand over Warren, he most certainly would have been convicted and we have no reason to believe he would have found it easy to escape from jail. It certainly would not have been any easier for him than it was for Faith, so if it's okay for the protagonists to let her live in jail, it's only fair to let Warren get that chance too.

 

[Robb Stark]

Completely agree, but I also think anyone in the right circumstances could become a killer like Willow did. Let's say a man raped and killed your 10 year old daughter and you were faced with that man, I don't think the consequences would matter to you any more, because that man just destroyed your whole life. If you are pushed to that limit where consequences don't matter and the person "deserves" it, I think anyone would have the power to kill. It doesn't make it right, and you certainly aren't a hero, but I can see the logic behind it. And if my friend became a killer in such a way, I would most likely forgive them.

This is where I differ, because in real life I have been faced with a very similar set of circumstances. When I found the man who date-raped my little sister, I wanted so badly to hurt him, to just rip him apart. After my sister broke down in my arms and told me what had happened to her, I found the man who did it to her in two days. I found out where he lived, what clubs he went to and what his routine was. To be blunt, I had him. Cold.

And I reached a very big moment where I could have easily gone down a darker road. It wouldn't have even been difficult. If you haven't been faced with something like that, it is...hard to comprehend. It's hard to really grasp the magnitude of. I thought about, I really, truly did, and instead of hurting this guy, or worse, I decided on the type of man I want to be, the type of man I am. Because you know what? There is a line. There really is. It's what separates us from them. That's the straight up, honest to god truth. So I packed up every shred of evidence and information I had on this guy, and I took my sister to the police station. And while not a day goes by where I don't think of what happened to her and what other decisions I might have made, I know I did the right thing.

--------------------------------------------

As a point of discussion, the notion that Warren is more evil than Anya prior to the end of S3 is absolutely laughable.

 

[buffffy]

It's Warren's fault.
He could of just let Buffy be, and avoided injuring her and killing Tara.
I think he deserved it.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Keep in mind, we have several separate questions floating around:

1. Did Warren deserve to die?
2. Should Willow have been the one to kill him?
3. Do you believe in the death penalty?
4. Should there be a harsher set of rules for criminals who have special powers?
5. Did Johnathan and Andrew deserve to die (because Willow hunted them down after she dispatched Warren)?

If you separate these questions, let's look at what Warren could be charged with:

1. Sexual slavery of Katrina.
2. Murder of Katrina.
3. Framing of Buffy for Katrina's murder.
4. Reckless endangerment with the invisibility ray that creates hazards and disintegrates items including people. (Although Johnathan and Andrew actually were the ones to fire at Buffy.)
5. Attempted murder of Buffy.
6. Murder or manslaughter of Tara. (The charge may be murder but any good lawyer could get it reduced.)
7. Armed robbery of an armoured car.

Warren almost got away by creating a robot Warren that sent Willow in the wrong direction. Even Snyder was correct when he said that the Sunnydale police were "deeply stupid". We can assume that Warren would manage to evade the Keystone cops in Sunnydale and that he would be safely out of their reach, even if he had to manufacture another robot before he left town. Most importantly, he would have continued killing when the thought occurred to him.

It might have made for an interesting story if Spike had been the one to dispatch Warren as a favour to Willow and Buffy. Would he have had the scoobies' blessings? Or maybe that vampire in the demon bar that he was boasting to could have finished him off. Dark Willow wasn't the only possible resolution.

 

[white avenger]

It might have made for an interesting story if Spike had been the one to dispatch Warren as a favour to Willow and Buffy. Would he have had the scoobies' blessings? Or maybe that vampire in the demon bar that he was boasting to could have finished him off. Dark Willow wasn't the only possible resolution.

Unless Spike could somehow bypass his chip, killing Warren directly would be pretty close to impossible, though hiring someone else to do the job couldn't be ruled out. But I don't think that doing so would have raised his status among the Scoobies, and Buffy definitely wouldn't have liked it.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I think

1. Did Warren deserve to die?
2. Should Willow have been the one to kill him?
3. Do you believe in the death penalty?
4. Should there be a harsher set of rules for criminals who have special powers?
5. Did Johnathan and Andrew deserve to die (because Willow hunted them down after she dispatched Warren)?

I think you also need to look if your applying real world logic to the series also.

When I say warren deserved to die, I'm not applying real world logic, BtVS is set in a world were the justice system is different. In real life I wouldn't condone a loved ones victim skining their lovers murder alive, but within the show he had it coming.

If Warren should have gotten a trial and a fair case, I dont see why demons shouldn't either within the context of the show. Just becasue Warren is human people are applying real world logic to him, but we dont know if other demons have souls or not and no one suggests Buffy shouldn't just instantly slay them.

It might have made for an interesting story if Spike had been the one to dispatch Warren as a favour to Willow and Buffy. Would he have had the scoobies' blessings? Or maybe that vampire in the demon bar that he was boasting to could have finished him off. Dark Willow wasn't the only possible resolution.

What would have been really interesting with that would be to see how Spike would react to that. As much as I dont like him, he was making an effort not to drink from humans when they were injured for Buffy, everything was for Buffy, if Buffy had asked him to do it, he would have had a really interesting inner struggle in that, if he agreed he'd have to kill and even if she asked him Buffy wouldn't have liked it, and it could have effected how she sees him, or choosing to disagree with her becasue he didn't want to kill someone for her knowing it would effect his reputation with her, even though disagreeing with her would do the same thing.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

In the States and Canada at least, if you intend to commit first degree murder and kill someone else in the process, it's still first degree murder. No DA in America would ever approve manslaughter charges for Tara's death.

You can't murder a slayer like you can't murder a dog. Buffy is not a human being, why should laws protect her? I'll tell you why they should not. If Warren answers for his attempt to kill Buffy like for an attempt to murder a human then Buffy needs to answer for her attempt to kill Faith, she also needs to answer for the death of every demon she's ever slain - they are all hybrids like herself, and for the deaths of Catherine Madison and Dr. Weirick too. Manslaughter is the most you can charge Warren with if you want to play it by the rules and not imprison Buffy and most of her friends for life in the process.

Human system and human law stop working as intended and lose relevancy the moment magic and supernatural creatures enter the scene.

When you make a conscious decision to end another's life when you literally have it in your hands, outside of a court system, and you have other options, then you aren't a hero anymore.

Willow is not a hero. She's a badass witch who does what she has to when the so called heroes turn impotent.

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]


You can't murder a slayer like you can't murder a dog. Buffy is not a human being, why should laws protect her? I'll tell you why they should not. If Warren answers for his attempt to kill Buffy like for an attempt to murder a human then Buffy needs to answer for her attempt to kill Faith, she also needs to answer for the death of every demon she's ever slain - they are all hybrids like herself, and for the deaths of Catherine Madison and Dr. Weirick too. Manslaughter is the most you can charge Warren with if you want to play it by the rules and not imprison Buffy and most of her friends for life in the process.

Human system and human law stop working as intended and lose relevancy the moment magic and supernatural creatures enter the scene.

Buffy is a human being. We go back and forth on this frequently, so the top point, to me (I understand it does to you) has no relevancy.

And the argument that "Person A deserves less because of something Person B did in a totally different set of circumstances" isn't overly strong. Warren is not a supernatural creature and he killed Tara and shot Buffy with a gun, no magic at all, so I don't see why human law shouldn't apply.

Willow is not a hero. She's a badass witch who does what she has to when the so called heroes turn impotent.

That's the thing though. "When she has to". Where and why did Willow "have" to flay Warren? Where and why did Willow "have" to hunt down Jonathon and Andrew?

And sorry, but to me, executing someone you have tied up who is begging for their life doesn't make you a badass. Wanting to do the same to Andrew and Jonathon, two guy who had nothing to do with the crime Willow is so upset over, doesn't make you a badass. It makes you a coward.

Physical strength and power doesn't make you some sort of badass or "special". What you do with it does.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

Buffy is a human being.

No, she's the slayer. Sorry but that's just canon. It's not something that can be debated, not after season 4 and not after season 7. I don't know, read the script or something. I don't understand it, why do you people deny it? I'm the Slayer. You're playing on my turf. and Human rules don't apply and You're all gonna die. But you knew that already. 'Cause that's the cool reward for being human. and The source of your strength. The well of the slayer's power (...) The energy of the demon. Its spirit. Its heart. is just there for what shit and giggles? If you don't like it, blame the writers.

Warren is not a supernatural creature and he killed Tara and shot Buffy with a gun, no magic at all, so I don't see why human law shouldn't apply.

Tara's death was an accident - Warren didn't want to kill her. Manslaughter is the only thing he can answer for before a human court. Why? Because Buffy is not a human so there is no intention to kill a human and no attempted murder. If Warren gets lucky he might not even end up in prison. That doesn't seem right, does it?

Where and why did Willow "have" to hunt down Jonathon and Andrew?

This thread is about Warren only.

That's the thing though. "When she has to". Where and why did Willow "have" to flay Warren?

The alternative is to let him go so he can kill again. Willow has to kill him just as Giles has to kill Ben. Here's why:

And sooner or later, Glory will re-emerge and make Buffy pay for that mercy, and the world with her.

Warren will do the same. Willow has to kill him to protect herself and her loved ones.

Bloody hell, this thread. Warren spends an entire season trying to murder Buffy, he kills Tara, it's like, he's a big bad, to hell with him! The gorier, the more entertaining! If Spike or Angel or Anyanka or Giles or Buffy had slaughtered him nobody would have bat an eye. You only complain because it's Willow.

Double standards. Eh, typical.

 

[Kean]

The alternative is to let him go so he can kill again. Willow has to kill him just as Giles has to kill Ben. Here's why:

And sooner or later, Glory will re-emerge and make Buffy pay for that mercy, and the world with her.

Like this is an alternative that we haven't seen played out several times in the verse. How many vampires and demons. known killers, have the Scoobies just let go? Off the top of my head I can think of 4 and everyone knows that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Warren will do the same. Willow has to kill him to protect herself and her loved ones.

Willow kills him for vengeance. Lets not twist what she did into some sort of noble act of love and protection.

Bloody hell, this thread. Warren spends an entire season trying to murder Buffy, he kills Tara, it's like, he's a big bad, to hell with him! The gorier, the more entertaining! If Spike or Angel or Anyanka or Giles or Buffy had slaughtered him nobody would have bat an eye. You only complain because it's Willow.

We have this conversation anytime one of the Scoobies, the supposed heroes, does something appalling. We have it for Xander and his actions in Becoming, for Buffy in relation to Ted and her attempting to kill Faith, Faith for actually killing people and Giles for killing Ben. Willow flayed a guy alive. Of course there is going to be discussions about the morality of that move. It would be a double standard to not discuss it.

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]
No, she's the slayer. Sorry but that's just canon. It's not something that can be debated, not after season 4 and not after season 7. I don't know, read the script or something. I don't understand it, why do you people deny it? I'm the Slayer. You're playing on my turf. and Human rules don't apply and You're all gonna die. But you knew that already. 'Cause that's the cool reward for being human. and The source of your strength. The well of the slayer's power (...) The energy of the demon. Its spirit. Its heart. is just there for what shit and giggles? If you don't like it, blame the writers.

Buffy is a human endowed with demon-based powers. That doesn't make her a demon. You're reading into something, which is perfectly fine, but that doesn't make it fact or canon.

Tara's death was an accident - Warren didn't want to kill her. Manslaughter is the only thing he can answer for before a human court. Why? Because Buffy is not a human so there is no intention to kill a human and no attempted murder. If Warren gets lucky he might not even end up in prison. That doesn't seem right, does it?

Wrong.

Anywhere in the western world, if you attempt to commit premeditated murder and kill someone else in the process, even if you're original target lives, you're still guilty of first-degree murder. I don't know which court system you're referring to, but the law in the state of California is extremely clear. So...yeah, that point is kind of out the window.

The alternative is to let him go so he can kill again. Willow has to kill him just as Giles has to kill Ben. Here's why:

Wrong.

I just proved to you that prison is a viable alternative. Warren was a human killing another human with a gun. That is EXACTLY what the prison system is there for.

And sooner or later, Glory will re-emerge and make Buffy pay for that mercy, and the world with her.

I would refer you to your own quote of "this thread is about Warren only", but I can tear this one apart too.

Ben had to die because he was embodied with Glory, and there was no way to prevent her from surfacing again. Warren had no such affliction. There aren't even remotely comparable.

Warren will do the same. Willow has to kill him to protect herself and her loved ones.

No, she doesn't. This is just factually incorrect. By this logic, every criminal should be executed on the spot.

Bloody hell, this thread. Warren spends an entire season trying to murder Buffy, he kills Tara, it's like, he's a big bad, to hell with him! The gorier, the more entertaining! If Spike or Angel or Anyanka or Giles or Buffy had slaughtered him nobody would have bat an eye. You only complain because it's Willow.

Double standards. Eh, typical.

Wrong.

I complain because it's a heinous act. You keep trying to tie this into something more than a sick revenge kick, which is all Warren's death was. You provide zero evidence whatsoever to suggest that is because of Willow as a character. I'll refer to [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]'s post, which summed this up well. EVERY character has their actions examined. Angel, Spike, Buffy, Xander, Willow, Anya, Giles, EVERY one of them has threads on this site discussing some of the horrible things they've done.

You're only getting fired up, well, because it's Willow.

Double standards. Eh, typical.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Buffy is a human endowed with demon-based powers. That doesn't make her a demon. You're reading into something, which is perfectly fine, but that doesn't make it fact or canon.

This is a murky area. I dont think you can say that Buffy is 100% human, but with extra abilities, a vampire is a human infected with a demon and no soul, Angel and Spike are humans infected with a demon with souls, Buffy is a human infected with the spirit of a pure demon, I can't see how much different that is from Angel or Spike, she is a human/demon hybrid.

The only thing that really says otherwise is that Spike can hit her, but we dont know the specifications of the chip, it could be the presence of a soul that would have stopped him from hitting her, it could be that she looks human, there's a lot of factors that to that.
Spike could hit her once she came back from the dead, that might have mean she was 49% demon before and 50% when she came back, those few molecules of difference mean she was on the verge of not being recognized as human by the chip.

Vengeance demons dont seem to be anything more then human, except with extra abilities, same as Buffy.

Wrong.

I just proved to you that prison is a viable alternative. Warren was a human killing another human with a gun. That is EXACTLY what the prison system is there for.

Killing Tara wasn't Warrens only crime, it was his latest crime. He was a small petty little person who didn't like being shown up by women, he never would have let that go, even if left Sunnydale he would have continued down that path.
Even in jail, I'm sure he would have been working on something to get out of there and the means by which he would have been doing that wouldn't have been something normal police could have stopped.

We can't even be sure they could put this on Warren, it was in Buffys home, no cameras. I'm sure Warren could have gotten rid of the gun though means the cops couldn't investigate.

After he though he shot Buffy he went around bragging about it, he didn't feel the need to lay low even though police would be involved if Buffy had died from a shooting. The only reason Warren fled was cuz he thought Buffy would be after him, to think he wouldn't have something in place to deal with regular police is crazy.

When he find out Willow is coming after him, he has no problems in killing her by trying to stick an axe in her back, the dudes a loser who was shown to have little to no humanity unless it was about himself, no reason for him not to die when other humans like Ben and the knights were allowed to be killed for the greater good.

I would refer you to your own quote of "this thread is about Warren only", but I can tear this one apart too.

Ben had to die because he was embodied with Glory, and there was no way to prevent her from surfacing again. Warren had no such affliction. There aren't even remotely comparable.

Wrong.

Warren didn't die that day in the forest and he did come back and terrorize Buffy and Willow. Warren was the exact same situation as Glory, no matter how long it took he would come back, he wouldn't let that go, being humiliated and defeated by a woman.
That is fact, he did it, that is what his character is.

 

[Robb Stark]

This is a murky area. I dont think you can say that Buffy is 100% human, but with extra abilities, a vampire is a human infected with a demon and no soul, Angel and Spike are humans infected with a demon with souls, Buffy is a human infected with the spirit of a pure demon, I can't see how much different that is from Angel or Spike, she is a human/demon hybrid.

I don't agree, but I can very much see your point.

Killing Tara wasn't Warrens only crime, it was his latest crime. He was a small petty little person who didn't like being shown up by women, he never would have let that go, even if left Sunnydale he would have continued down that path.
Even in jail, I'm sure he would have been working on something to get out of there and the means by which he would have been doing that wouldn't have been something normal police could have stopped.

"He would have", "He never would have", "I'm sure he would have been..."

All of those are just assumptions, and that's not how justice works. And...how exactly would Warren have been capable of escaping from prison? He goes to prison for first-degree murder in California, he's there for life, without parole. Where is the necessity for killing him? There isn't one.

We can't even be sure they could put this on Warren, it was in Buffys home, no cameras. I'm sure Warren could have gotten rid of the gun though means the cops couldn't investigate.

After he though he shot Buffy he went around bragging about it, he didn't feel the need to lay low even though police would be involved if Buffy had died from a shooting. The only reason Warren fled was cuz he thought Buffy would be after him, to think he wouldn't have something in place to deal with regular police is crazy.

So...justification for killing people now is "well, they probably have a plan in place for the police, so we should just axe them"? Hmm. Yeah. I don't agree with that.

Buffy sees Warren shoot her. It would take a complete idiot not to convict him of that crime. There's a dead body and a gunshot victim. Police don't just let that go.

When he find out Willow is coming after him, he has no problems in killing her by trying to stick an axe in her back, the dudes a loser who was shown to have little to no humanity unless it was about himself, no reason for him not to die when other humans like Ben and the knights were allowed to be killed for the greater good.

"The dudes a loser" is irrelevant. There are plenty of losers in real life. That doesn't give you or I the right to kill who we please.

Wrong.

Warren didn't die that day in the forest and he did come back and terrorize Buffy and Willow. Warren was the exact same situation as Glory, no matter how long it took he would come back, he wouldn't let that go, being humiliated and defeated by a woman.
That is fact, he did it, that is what his character is.

Well, you are ignoring the radically altered set of circumstances that the man had been skinned, and only survived because of a totally unpredictable event of Amy coming to his rescue (which, as a sidebar, I find so stupid. The First appears as Warren in S7. Why is it able to do that if he's actually alive? I know he's alive, it's just another example of ignoring continuity that drives me nuts).

And this point...again...ignores the fact that Warren would have been incarcerated for life.

I don't know why people are getting so stuck up on this. Killing people because you feel like it is dead wrong. "Because they deserve it" is NOT a good enough reason. And every one of the arguments I've read here about how he remained an active threat are just ridiculous, and just read as an attempt to justify a character you guys like.