Did Warren Deserve to Die

[BuffyElevated]

Warren was utterly despicable but Willow had no right to make that call and quite frankly, the cruelty of the manner in which she killed him was appalling, certainly on par (if not worse) with anything Warren did himself.

I totally, completely agree. And why she was given such a pass after doing what she did was unfathomable to me. When she came back to Sunnydale, they all welcomed her back with open arms, which was so weird to me. Faith killed someone and they wanted to write her off and ship her off to prison. Anya killed people and Buffy wanted to kill her. Why shouldn't Willow get the same treatment?

 

[Icarium]

And every one of the arguments I've read here about how he remained an active threat are just ridiculous, and just read as an attempt to justify a character you guys like.

Agreed, I just wish people would be honest and say they liked seeing Warren die because he disgusted them or annoyed them or something like that. Nothing wrong with that at all, IMO. The guy is fictional. I myself would have loved it if Willow had managed to kill Andrew too, not because I think he deserved to die but because I find him incredibly annoying. There is no objective argument to be made about Warren being less deserving of a second chance than about a dozen Buffyverse characters who have caused a lot more harm, many of whom are fan favourites. Yes, he might have escaped and murdered somebody again. So? Since when are Buffy and the others operating on this principle? Mind you, I for one think they are way too forgiving but most fans seem to like that. How come few fans complain about Anya being given a chance in S3 despite murdering thousands and thousands of people and the chance of her deciding she wanted to kill again was not to be ignored at that point (I mean, the characters weren't to know the character was being rewritten into comic relief). Or the many fans who say Buffy was wrong to go after Faith in Graduation Day despite Faith posing a much bigger threat then Warren ever did. It's clearly about liking certain characters and disliking others.

 

[Blaze]

Agreed, I just wish people would be honest and say they liked seeing Warren die because he disgusted them or annoyed them or something like that. Nothing wrong with that at all, IMO. The guy is fictional. I myself would have loved it if Willow had managed to kill Andrew too, not because I think he deserved to die but because I find him incredibly annoying. There is no objective argument to be made about Warren being less deserving of a second chance than about a dozen Buffyverse characters who have caused a lot more harm, many of whom are fan favourites. Yes, he might have escaped and murdered somebody again. So? Since when are Buffy and the others operating on this principle? Mind you, I for one think they are way too forgiving but most fans seem to like that. How come few fans complain about Anya being given a chance in S3 despite murdering thousands and thousands of people and the chance of her deciding she wanted to kill again was not to be ignored at that point (I mean, the characters weren't to know the character was being rewritten into comic relief). Or the many fans who say Buffy was wrong to go after Faith in Graduation Day despite Faith posing a much bigger threat then Warren ever did. It's clearly about liking certain characters and disliking others.

This a thousand times over. I came to this thread saying explicitly that I was fine with Willow killing Warren because this is a TV show, not real life, and it doesn't matter if I was against it in real life, for this situation, seeing Warren get what he deserve felt rewarding, no matter how unacceptable it was (edit: apparently I said this in another thread, not this one lol, my bad, but point being, you are right). You're completely right that technically, Anya, Warren, Faith, Spike, Angel should all be treated the same according to their pass, yet we don't treat them the same because we develop a subjectivity to them in accordance to how we feel about them, and that's completely okay because of the nature of the show, but people shouldn't try to make invalid excuses when it comes to their favorite characters vs. the ones they don't like.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

"He would have", "He never would have", "I'm sure he would have been..."

All of those are just assumptions, and that's not how justice works. And...how exactly would Warren have been capable of escaping from prison? He goes to prison for first-degree murder in California, he's there for life, without parole. Where is the necessity for killing him? There isn't one.

It's how justice works in the show.

Buffy slays any and all vampires, there are some romantic leads that run counter to that, but apart from them, any and all vampires are allowed to be killed at any time.

A newly raised vampire who hasn't killed yet is slayable becasue of what they are going to do.

Of course I'm assuming Warren is going to do more, but I'm also right, Warren proved that for me when he came back in season 8, he would always keep coming back.

So...justification for killing people now is "well, they probably have a plan in place for the police, so we should just axe them"? Hmm. Yeah. I don't agree with that.

Buffy sees Warren shoot her. It would take a complete idiot not to convict him of that crime. There's a dead body and a gunshot victim. Police don't just let that go.

Buffy also has a history of violence, and a record of getting kicked out of school and being involved in a homicide case, possibly reported as a runaway, a sleezy lawyer can turn things around on her and make her look like an unrealiable witness.
Then she's gonna go into court and say Waren shot her... she probably can't as she was healed magically, it's very possibly Willows magic may have made that wound undetectable, and who knows what the doctors remember from what Willow did to them, even if they did remember they are not going to able to explain it.
That leaves Warren as shooting Tara, I think he can get rid of the gun no problem, he has no history with Tara, no motive, no evidence he was there other then a teen delinquent and her friend, you seem to just look at it as a court system as it is in real life, ignoring all the mystical elements that would be involved in the case ON THE SHOW.

"The dudes a loser" is irrelevant. There are plenty of losers in real life. That doesn't give you or I the right to kill who we please.

No it doesn't, but it makes his death more satisfying when it happens on TV.

Well, you are ignoring the radically altered set of circumstances that the man had been skinned, and only survived because of a totally unpredictable event of Amy coming to his rescue (which, as a sidebar, I find so stupid. The First appears as Warren in S7. Why is it able to do that if he's actually alive? I know he's alive, it's just another example of ignoring continuity that drives me nuts).

And this point...again...ignores the fact that Warren would have been incarcerated for life.

I don't know why people are getting so stuck up on this. Killing people because you feel like it is dead wrong. "Because they deserve it" is NOT a good enough reason. And every one of the arguments I've read here about how he remained an active threat are just ridiculous, and just read as an attempt to justify a character you guys like.

I couldn't disagree more, as far as I'm concerned it's fact that Warren would come back.
When his girlfriend dumped him, he came back and got his revenge by raping and murdering her.
When Buffy stopped his plan to rob the bank, he came back and shot her.
When Willow killed him, he came back and lobotomised her.
Still not content to bugged off, he helps to create a bomb to blow up Buffy and her girls, killing a lot of them.
Then at the last minuet him and Amy switch sides before doing a runner, where Amy suggests they go back and help the scoobies, which Warren flat out denies to do as Buffy and Willow are the enemy.

Even when he gets away they are still his enemy, to think that he wouldn't come back is delusional.

 

[Icarium]

Of course I'm assuming Warren is going to do more, but I'm also right, Warren proved that for me when he came back in season 8, he would always keep coming back.

Of course if he hadn't been, you know, tortured and almost murdered he might have reformed. Who knows? It's certainly many times more likely than a thousand year old serial killer slash man-hater would suddenly fight for good and fall in love with a man. Or a soulless vampire falling in love with a Slayer.

That leaves Warren as shooting Tara, I think he can get rid of the gun no problem, he has no history with Tara, no motive, no evidence he was there other then a teen delinquent and her friend, you seem to just look at it as a court system as it is in real life, ignoring all the mystical elements that would be involved in the case ON THE SHOW.

And you seem to be ignoring the very strong possibility that Jonathan and Andrew would have ratted out Warren in a microsecond. Or that magic cuts both ways and Willow could have, you know, manufactured some evidence out of thin air to help convict Warren. Or that there was that security guy who witnessed Warren stealing the big diamond.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Robb Stark disagrees: We're not going to agree on this. "He'll keep coming back" is mitigated IF HE'S IN PRISON.

Except I dont for one second think he'd have gotten to prison, or if he did he'd have gotten out. Warren isn't a criminal mastermind but things tend to go his way.

Of course if he hadn't been, you know, tortured and almost murdered he might have reformed. Who knows? It's certainly many times more likely than a thousand year old serial killer slash man-hater would suddenly fight for good and fall in love with a man. Or a soulless vampire falling in love with a Slayer.

She was forced to be human, and he was neutered. Warren had nothing done to him that would change him like that. Also we dont know the full extent that a soul plays in a vengeance demon, and there's something special about Spike.
Warren was fully human, with a soul.

And you seem to be ignoring the very strong possibility that Jonathan and Andrew would have ratted out Warren in a microsecond. Or that magic cuts both ways and Willow could have, you know, manufactured some evidence out of thin air to help convict Warren. Or that there was that security guy who witnessed Warren stealing the big diamond.

I'm sure Jonathan would have, but I'm also sure Andrew would have protected Warren and told the police Jonathan was making it all up and there is no Warren.
You sure it's okay for Willow to fabricate evidence for a human court?

Did the guard see Warren, I can't remember?

Ben was better off dead, The knights were better off dead, Ford was better off dead, Warren is just another human, that in the show, is better off dead.

 

[Robb Stark]

Except I dont for one second think he'd have gotten to prison, or if he did he'd have gotten out. Warren isn't a criminal mastermind but things tend to go his way.

Look, I don't know how to phrase this in a way that doesn't sound snarky, but as someone who went to school for criminology, who has their degree in it, Warren's shooting is almost a slam-dunk. Police don't just discount vast swaths of evidence because the shooter may have ditched the murder-weapon. Buffy and company still see Warren fire the gun. Even if they keep silent on Buffy getting shot (which I still don't think they'd have to do), they still saw him shoot Tara. Why would they just keep quiet on that? This would not be an overly difficult case to prosecute.

Also...what tends to go Warren's way? Every single one of his plans are foiled by Buffy or his own incompetence. He lives in his mom's basement. He someone manages to screw up killing Buffy with a gun at point-blank range and instead kills an innocent bystander. What goes his way?

She was forced to be human, and he was neutered. Warren had nothing done to him that would change him like that. Also we dont know the full extent that a soul plays in a vengeance demon, and there's something special about Spike.
Warren was fully human, with a soul.

What changed about Anya right away? Nothing. She was indeed forced to be human, but if I recall correctly she also tried to murder Willow in "Dopplegangland" shortly after becoming human. Following that, she pined for her rampaging days almost every episode. The only difference between Warren and Anya is that Anya's crimes are played for comedic affect, so the audience in turn likes her, while Warren's are portrayed far more seriously. Becoming human changed nothing about Anya. If it did, she wouldn't have tried to still kill people. Hell, she's virtually unchanged when she becomes a vengeance demon again in S7, so where is this radical change you're talking about?

And the notion of Spike having "something special" is VERY debatable. Other than he maybe loves harder than the average vampire, what is so special about him?


I'm sure Jonathan would have, but I'm also sure Andrew would have protected Warren and told the police Jonathan was making it all up and there is no Warren.
[/QUOTE]

I think you're vastly overestimating Andrew's fortitude, but that's just opinion.

 

[Icarium]

I'm sure Jonathan would have, but I'm also sure Andrew would have protected Warren and told the police Jonathan was making it all up and there is no Warren.

And I am sure Andrew would have folded like a cheap suit when pressed by even the dumbest of police officers and prosecutors.

You sure it's okay for Willow to fabricate evidence for a human court?

Considering the alternative you are proposing is for her to murder him, hell yes. Plus, he was guilty as hell and so morally I don't see anything wrong with fighting him with his own weapon - using people's ignorance about the supernatural.

Warren was fully human, with a soul.

And many people with souls do reform. Was it a big chance that he would have done so? No. But he wasn't totally irredeemable in theory, especially when compared to the likes of Spike, Anya, Faith, Angel and many others who got chance after chance from Buffy and the rest.

Also...what tends to go Warren's way? Every single one of his plans are foiled by Buffy or his own incompetence. He lives in his mom's basement. He someone manages to screw up killing Buffy with a gun at point-blank range and instead kills an innocent bystander. What goes his way?

Yes, the guy might be smart when it came to certain things but he was also in many ways quite stupid. There was no reason whatsoever to target Buffy and her pals or to stay in Sunnydale, the one place where he knew that there were people who were well aware about supernatural threats. He could have robbed banks without pesky Slayers or witches stopping him some place else but he had to be the typical comic book villain and just ask to be caught.

 

[Taake]

I would say regardless of whether he did or didn't it wasn't up to Willow to make that decision.