Question Did Xander Cover for Dawn?

[BuffyElevated]

No, I do not think Xander was covering for Dawn. As has been pointed out over and over in this thread, Dawn didn't take the amulet til the spell was already in motion, and the amulet was already out on the counter in the magic shop, suggesting someone else had put it there (Xander).
As far as those of you who are saying that Xander was selfish not to tell anyone what he had done after finding out people were dying, does it say anywhere in the episode that they knew that the deaths were related to the spell?? I don't remember that ever being said. In fact, here's part of the transcript for the episode:

Cut to the street. Anya and Xander are on either side of Giles, all walking down the street. Anya and Xander both talking at once.

XANDER: It's a nightmare.
ANYA: It has to be stopped.
XANDER: It's a plague. It's like a nightmare about a plague.
ANYA: It was like we were being watched.
XANDER: It's like, I didn't wanna be saying things-
ANYA: Like there was a wall missing-
XANDER: -but they just kept pouring out.
ANYA: -in our apartment.
XANDER: And they rhymed and they were mean and
ANYA: Like there were only three walls and not a fourth wall and
XANDER: My eyes are not beady!
ANYA: My toes are not hairy!

They stop talking over each other.

XANDER: Giles, you've got to stop it.
GILES: Well, I am looking into some leads, and I-
ANYA: It's just, clearly our number is a retro pastiche that's never going to be a breakaway pop hit.
XANDER: Work with me, British man. Give me an axe and show me where to point it.

We hear a woman singing but we can't see her or make out the words yet.

GILES: Well now, Xander, it's not quite that simple. But I have learned about some disturbing things. Basically-

They continue talking in the background as we focus on a woman (BTVS executive producer Marti Noxon) who is standing by her car singing to a policeman. The cop is writing her a parking ticket and we see that her car is parked next to a fire hydrant. As she sings we can see Giles, Xander, and Anya standing and talking in background.

MARTI:
I'm asking you please no
It isn't right, it isn't fair
There was no parking anywhere
I think that hydrant wasn't there
[cop gives her the ticket]
Why can't you let it go?
I think I've paid more than my share...

She continues singing in the background as Xander, Anya, and Giles resume walking and talking.

XANDER: As in burnt up? Somebody set people on fire? That's nuts!
ANYA: I don't know. One more verse of our little ditty and I would've been looking for a gas can.
GILES: Well, clearly emotions are running high. (We see people in background dancing together) But as far as I can tell these people burnt up from the inside, spontaneously combusted. (Three street sweeper men in background dancing with brooms) I've only seen the one. I was able to examine the body while the police were taking witness arias.
XANDER: Okay, but we're sure that the things are related: the singing and dancing, and burning and dying.

They stop walking. The street sweepers continue their dance in background.

GILES: We're not sure of much. Buffy's looking for leads at the local demon haunts, at least ... in theory she is, but ... she doesn't seem to-
XANDER: She's easing back into it. We pulled her out of an untold hell dimension. Ergo the weirdness. The important thing is to be there for her.
GILES: (shakes head) I'm helping her as much as I can, but, uh...

Anya pats Giles awkwardly on the shoulder.

Source: http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/buffy/season6/buffy-607.htm

I think if Giles had told Xander right then that he was sure the spontaneous combustion was a result of the spell, Xander would have come clean. Selfish as he may be at times in the series, I would never believe that the character would ever put lives in danger. My point is, he didn't know he was the one who was responsible for the deaths.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

HisMrs, Xander shouldn't have needed to have it confirmed to confess. He just jumped to the conclusion that the spell might have caused the deaths and just the possibility that the sing&dance spell had caused the deaths should have made Xander stop dead in his tracks, sweat, mumble, and finally confess to the spell. Or at the very bit look extremely uncomfortable and then running away to find the amulet/undo the spell. It's possible that Xander looked for the amulet right after this conversation (what happens after) but as soon as he couldn't find the amulet, he should have run to the others and told.

That he took the risk and hoped the spells were unrelated makes him extremely selfish. He's not dumb enough to think "Nah, if Giles says his not sure, it must mean that there's absolutely no chance that I made a mistake."

Even if Xander thought the spell was permanent, and he didn't know how to undo it, he should have told, so they could try to fix it anyway. And even if he thought the spell was harmless at first, he knows that magic can go very wrong.

People were dying. Xander knew the spell could have caused it. That should have been enough.

 

[Icarium]

People were dying. Xander knew the spell could have caused it. That should have been enough.

Exactly. Plus, it's not as if his friends were going to punish him for the spell so he wouldn't be risking anything by telling the truth. Pretty much the entire Scooby gang has had spells gone wrong or other cases of good intentions going wrong. But by feigning ignorance Xander becomes actively malicious.

And even that could have been explained as Xander screwing up and not with the writers not caring one bit. But after OMWF nobody ever raises the issue. Xander shows no guilt whatsoever. So it's pretty clear Joss only cared about the joke and didn't give a fig that his moronic plot twist put blood on Xander's hands. Then again, in a show where Anya's murders were often played as a joke that wasn't exactly shocking...

 

[BuffyElevated]

HisMrs, Xander shouldn't have needed to have it confirmed to confess. He just jumped to the conclusion that the spell might have caused the deaths and just the possibility that the sing&dance spell had caused the deaths should have made Xander stop dead in his tracks, sweat, mumble, and finally confess to the spell. Or at the very bit look extremely uncomfortable and then running away to find the amulet/undo the spell. It's possible that Xander looked for the amulet right after this conversation (what happens after) but as soon as he couldn't find the amulet, he should have run to the others and told.

That he took the risk and hoped the spells were unrelated makes him extremely selfish. He's not dumb enough to think "Nah, if Giles says his not sure, it must mean that there's absolutely no chance that I made a mistake."

Even if Xander thought the spell was permanent, and he didn't know how to undo it, he should have told, so they could try to fix it anyway. And even if he thought the spell was harmless at first, he knows that magic can go very wrong.

People were dying. Xander knew the spell could have caused it. That should have been enough.

And WHY should he have automatically assumed that the spell could have been causing those deaths? At that point, the Scoobies had only seen people doing silly, fun songs and dancing. None of them had yet seen that these people were dancing themselves to death.
I'm sorry, I don't agree that he should have automatically assumed that the spell was the reason people were dying around town. If he should have, then they all should have, so maybe we should blame Giles for not figuring it out sooner, or Willow for not doing a counter spell to stop it.

 

[xfivebyfive]

OMG people actually get mad at Xander for this? I never knew people actually got mad at him for this?! The episode is just supposed to be fun. Xander didn't know people were dying because of it, he wasn't being malicious come on? He's Xander.

I'm sorry but I still can't actually get over the fact that people really blame Xander for actions done in Once More With Feeling. The episode is a musical it's just supposed to be fun. I don't overthink this episode lol.

 

[BuffyElevated]

OMG people actually get mad at Xander for this? I never knew people actually got mad at him for this?! The episode is just supposed to be fun. Xander didn't know people were dying because of it, he wasn't being malicious come on? He's Xander.

I'm sorry but I still can't actually get over the fact that people really blame Xander for actions done in Once More With Feeling. The episode is a musical it's just supposed to be fun. I don't overthink this episode lol.

I think certain people look for reasons to hate the character, which is really really silly to me. Even though I like certain characters more than others, I can never fully hate any of the main cast of the show and it baffles me that some people can. And what you said here? You took the words right outta my mouth.

 

[Icarium]

It's not a sitcom, so "it's supposed to be fun" doesn't really work for me. especially when the stupid "queen" joke that seems to be the reason why Xander was picked to be the culprit isn't even funny. The scene where Willow is happy that Spike wants to bite her in The Initiative is played as comedy too but I find it totally disgusting.

And WHY should he have automatically assumed that the spell could have been causing those deaths? At that point, the Scoobies had only seen people doing silly, fun songs and dancing. None of them had yet seen that these people were dancing themselves to death.

And why stay quiet? I really don't see Xander thinking "Well, maybe it wasn't my spell". What would he lose by telling the truth? Nothing. There is no reason whatsoever for him to not say anything - even after Spike says Dawn summoned Sweet and says to Buffy "I hope you dance till you burn", implying that Sweet's minion he captured had confirmed that the the spell caused people to burn to death.

 

[xfivebyfive]

It's not a sitcom, so "it's supposed to be fun" doesn't really work for me. especially when the stupid "queen" joke that seems to be the reason why Xander was picked to be the culprit isn't even funny. The scene where Willow is happy that Spike wants to bite her in The Initiative is played as comedy too but I find it totally disgusting.

Well you don't find it funny, but doesn't mean its not funny. It's just not funny in your opinion. And the show is a comedy. Thats one of the best things about BTVS its not just a drama or a horror show its drama/horror/comedy all in one.

Some episodes you just have to appreciate outside the story and Once More With Feeling is one of them, it was an excuse for Joss to have a musical. Its not like he thought I want to have Xander kill people so I'm going to have him maliciously sit back and let these people die.

I don't mean to sound rude, but I don't get blaming Xander for something that was clearly just thrown in there for an explanation for the musical.

 

[Icarium]

I don't blame Xander in the slightest, I blame the writers for putting a stupid plot twist just for the sake of a plot twist. A well written plot twist makes one think "Yes, that totally makes sense! I should have noticed it earlier", not "Are you freaking kidding me?!?".

Some episodes you just have to appreciate outside the story and Once More With Feeling is one of them, it was an excuse for Joss to have a musical.

Well, I do indeed appreciate the songs and dislike the plot of OMWF. The problem is that many fans claim that OMWF is the greatest episode ever because the singing is perfectly integrated into the plot and the character motivation makes sense and I don't really agree with that.

Its not like he thought I want to have Xander kill people so I'm going to have him maliciously sit back and let these people die.

Why not? Anya cracks jokes about her thousands of victims all the time, it's not as if Joss doesn't have a very extensive track record of sweeping character's crimes under the carpet whenever it suits his goals.

 

[BuffyElevated]

It's not a sitcom, so "it's supposed to be fun" doesn't really work for me. especially when the stupid "queen" joke that seems to be the reason why Xander was picked to be the culprit isn't even funny. The scene where Willow is happy that Spike wants to bite her in The Initiative is played as comedy too but I find it totally disgusting.

Well if you don't find humor about being bitten by a vampire funny, I think you're watching the wrong show for you.

And why stay quiet? I really don't see Xander thinking "Well, maybe it wasn't my spell". What would he lose by telling the truth? Nothing. There is no reason whatsoever for him to not say anything - even after Spike says Dawn summoned Sweet and says to Buffy "I hope you dance till you burn", implying that Sweet's minion he captured had confirmed that the the spell caused people to burn to death.

You keep saying that you think Xander should spoken up sooner. Yes, maybe he should have, but I strongly disagree that he thought for one moment that it was his spell that had caused people to die, the way you seem to keep trying to prove that he did. There's not one thing in the episode that points to any one of the Scoobies thinking it could be related to the deaths around Sunnydale, and Spike saying that to Buffy happens after they talk to Sweet's minion and there was so much other stuff going on in that scene it wouldn't have fit to have Xander interject in the middle of those conversations to say "Oh, and by the way, it was me who summoned Sweet."
The point is, he DID fess up- just not when YOU wanted him to.

 

[Icarium]

Well if you don't find humor about being bitten by a vampire funny, I think you're watching the wrong show for you.

I don't find cheering on your would be murderer and smiling when he says he would have murdered you if he could (and the scene is full of very obvious metaphorical rape undertones too) all that funny. If Buffy had found Spike's attempt to rape her in Seeing Red flattering, I am sure people would have been outraged, yet somehow The Initiative scene is regarded as harmless fun.

You keep saying that you think Xander should spoken up sooner. Yes, maybe he should have, but I strongly disagree that he thought for one moment that it was his spell that had caused people to die, the way you seem to keep trying to prove that he did.

Well then the choice is between Xander being a total moron and him being malicious. Not a good choice, IMO.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I don't find cheering on your would be murderer and smiling when he says he would have murdered you if he could (and the scene is full of very obvious metaphorical rape undertones too) all that funny. If Buffy had found Spike's attempt to rape her in Seeing Red flattering, I am sure people would have been outraged, yet somehow The Initiative scene is regarded as harmless fun.



Well then the choice is between Xander being a total moron and him being malicious. Not a good choice, IMO.

How in the world does that scene have anything to do with attempted rape? Seriously, I would LOVE to know what you're talking about. As far as saying he would have murdered you "if he could", that is completely and totally wrong and you're just making stuff up. Where is your proof that Xander would have murdered people "if he could"??
Xander is not a murderer. Never has been and probably never will be (and I'm NOT talking about "The Wish"'s Vamp Xander 'cause that was an alternate reality).

 

[Icarium]

How in the world does that scene have anything to do with attempted rape? Seriously, I would LOVE to know what you're talking about. As far as saying he would have murdered you "if he could", that is completely and totally wrong and you're just making stuff up. Where is your proof that Xander would have murdered people "if he could"??

I was referring to the scene in The Initiative where Spike tried to kill Willow. By "if he could", I meant Spike, not Xander.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I was referring to the scene in The Initiative where Spike tried to kill Willow. By "if he could", I meant Spike, not Xander.

Ahhh, I see. I misread what you were saying. I don't know, I think maybe you are just dwelling a little too much on the heavy, dark things in these scenes. Obviously the show is heavy and dark at times, but the scenes you're talking about are meant to be funny moments. I have never met anyone besides you who has issues with those scenes to that extent, so again I say maybe you're watching the wrong show for your sense of humor.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Ahhh, I see. I misread what you were saying. I don't know, I think maybe you are just dwelling a little too much on the heavy, dark things in these scenes. Obviously the show is heavy and dark at times, but the scenes you're talking about are meant to be funny moments. I have never met anyone besides you who has issues with those scenes to that extent, so again I say maybe you're watching the wrong show for your sense of humor.

I saw rape understones in that scene as well. She was held down and screaming.

Then there's how they talked about what happened in Lover's walk(when mentioning he had wanted to bite her when she had that pink number on), where Spike almost raped Willow(could be I read too much into it).

"There will be no HAVING of any kind". I assumed he meant rape, not biting, since h meantion he hadn't had a "woman" in weeks.

So I agree with Icarium. Sometimes the show takes things too easily.

It's fine if you don't see it that way, and don't take it seriously, but some people do.

I myself have laughed at some scenes that I later was appaled by. I loved Lover's walk first time I saw it. Then my uncle got accused of rape (not sure if he did it) and it turned out people I knew were rape victims. Made me see certain things in Buffy more seriously.

---------- Post added at 10:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 PM ----------

And WHY should he have automatically assumed that the spell could have been causing those deaths? At that point, the Scoobies had only seen people doing silly, fun songs and dancing. None of them had yet seen that these people were dancing themselves to death.
I'm sorry, I don't agree that he should have automatically assumed that the spell was the reason people were dying around town. If he should have, then they all should have, so maybe we should blame Giles for not figuring it out sooner, or Willow for not doing a counter spell to stop it.

1). Xander knew that spells could have horrible effects(for example, his love spell and the resurrection-spell's hitchhiker and the possibilty that Buffy would come back wrong that Spike brought up).

2) It's proven that he did automatically assume his spell caused it, he said so in the transcript you quoted.

3) Do you mean they should have investigated if the sing & dance spell had anything to do with it? Wasn't that what they were all doing, while researching other options? And how could Willow do a counter spell right away, she had no idea how the spell was made, or if it was a demon causing it?

I don't mean to sound rude, but I don't get blaming Xander for something that was clearly just thrown in there for an explanation for the musical.

For me, it's just as serious as any other episode or scene. It's not erased from Xander's history just because it was a joke.

Well if you don't find humor about being bitten by a vampire funny, I think you're watching the wrong show for you.

Why wouldn't Icarium watch the show that is about how vampires are evil and need to be slayed in case he dislikes biting? lol

You keep saying that you think Xander should spoken up sooner. Yes, maybe he should have, but I strongly disagree that he thought for one moment that it was his spell that had caused people to die, the way you seem to keep trying to prove that he did. There's not one thing in the episode that points to any one of the Scoobies thinking it could be related to the deaths around Sunnydale, and Spike saying that to Buffy happens after they talk to Sweet's minion and there was so much other stuff going on in that scene it wouldn't have fit to have Xander interject in the middle of those conversations to say "Oh, and by the way, it was me who summoned Sweet."
The point is, he DID fess up- just not when YOU wanted him to.

You're wrong, it was in the transcript you quoted, where Xander for a moment (or longer) thought his spell had caused the deaths. Giles and Anya were there too.

Btw, I hope I'm not one of "certain people" you mention in a post that you believe is looking for reasons to hate Xander. You phrasing was kind of insulting to me, since it implied that anyone who disagreed with you could be one of those people.

 

[Icarium]

Ahhh, I see. I misread what you were saying. I don't know, I think maybe you are just dwelling a little too much on the heavy, dark things in these scenes. Obviously the show is heavy and dark at times, but the scenes you're talking about are meant to be funny moments. I have never met anyone besides you who has issues with those scenes to that extent, so again I say maybe you're watching the wrong show for your sense of humor.

Well, I like most of the humour in BtVS. But I don't like it when characters behave oddly for the sake of a joke. It's a writing shortcut better suited for a sitcom. Combine this with Willow being shown to be dumb enough to be flattered by Spike's attempt to kill her which is bad in itself, attempts for comedy aside, and you get a scene that I loathe. Especially since it sets up Spike as the untouchable guy whose transgressions are never taken seriously by anyone, never mind how many times he tries to harm people.

Well written comedy should feel natural or at least weird behaviour should be explained somehow. Say Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered - if we didn't know that there was a love spell the behaviour of the women around Xander would have caused mostly annoyance, not laughter. Eventually things got to the point where characters like Anya and Andrew were added for the cast for no other reason other than them being funny, never mind that according to the internal logic of the show the Scoobies shouldn't have wanted to have anything to do with them.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I can actually see Willow being flattered by Spike wanting to bite her, if it wasn't for Lover's walk (maybe she ignored the "having" thing, repressed the memory) and that it went on for too long. Specially since she finally realizes what she's saying and hits him over the head. She was desperate for affection, poor thing.

Stil weird that it too so long for her to remember "Wait, I don't want him to bite me".

 

[BuffyElevated]

This is pretty pointless to keep arguing, so I'm not going to. You guys are drawing conclusions that Xander knew he was responsible for deaths of innocent lives from very loose interpretations of the script, and that is ludicrous to me. We'll have to agree to strongly disagree.

 

[Anya2012]

A good theory but its just that with Xander, nothing changes. His spells always goes wrong. His first one he did out of selfishness and he was hurt by Cordy and this one he just wanted happy songs.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Skytteflickan88 agrees: So you still disagree on that Xander "thought for one moment that it was his spell that had caused people to die" even thought the dialouge proves it? That doesn't seem like a loose interpretation.

YES I do. I've said it what feels like a million times now. According to that transcript, he thought it for a second, as would probably be a natural reaction. But since neither Giles or Buffy had yet said they thought it could be the same spell that was causing everyone to sing and dance that was killing those people, he probably didn't feel like he should bring it up. At that point, they thought it was all fun and games. They didn't know the two were related yet.