Did you guess Tara was a lesbian?

[The Chosen]

Well you could definately see what was going on there. Tara's first smile towards Willow was a key factor. They were the best couple on the show, IMHO.

 

[maelstrom209]

Meeting Tara for the first time, I didn't know about her sexuality. It was the subsequent interactions she had with Willow that I realized there was more going on between them.

 

[white avenger]

I've never seen the Willow/Tara relationship as a lesbian thing as much as two people who have a great deal in common loving each other. When Kennedy asked Willow when she had discovered that she preferred women, Willow's answer was something like, "Not women, but one woman...Tara."

As for the Willow/Kennedy thing, Kennedy initiated almost all of it, and Willow was still in a state of confusion and grief over the loss of Tara. Kennedy took advantage of the situation ("You might have noticed that I'm something of a brat. I've always gotten what I want..."). I think Willow, if she had thought of the situation unemotionaly, would have said something like, "She's just a kid, but, what the hell. We'll probably all wind up dead anyway.")

Willow loved Tara. Tara loved Willow. Period. I seriously doubt if gender would have mattered one way or the other.

 

[maelstrom209]

Wow, that's really deep. I didn't think of it that way but you are right. The relationship that Willow and Tara had was really beyond being lesbian. They're soulmates so they would love each other regardless of gender.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I've never seen the Willow/Tara relationship as a lesbian thing as much as two people who have a great deal in common loving each other. When Kennedy asked Willow when she had discovered that she preferred women, Willow's answer was something like, "Not women, but one woman...Tara."

As for the Willow/Kennedy thing, Kennedy initiated almost all of it, and Willow was still in a state of confusion and grief over the loss of Tara. Kennedy took advantage of the situation ("You might have noticed that I'm something of a brat. I've always gotten what I want..."). I think Willow, if she had thought of the situation unemotionaly, would have said something like, "She's just a kid, but, what the hell. We'll probably all wind up dead anyway.")

Willow loved Tara. Tara loved Willow. Period. I seriously doubt if gender would have mattered one way or the other.

Any true loving relationship should transcend the gender of the people, however that does not change the sexuality of the people within the relationship.

Willow was/is a Lesbian.
It takes nothing from the relationship to admit that.
There was a connection between these two that was evident to the outsider(us) from the moment they shared time together and it was also evident to them.

I do find that suggesting Kennedy was a simple 'lay' in season 7 because Willow thought they were all doomed DOES actually detract from the Tara and Willow relationship.

Tara gave Willow the strength and confidence to realize who she was and who she wanted to be and in that comes the term 'lesbian'. By suggesting Willow gave into bratty, manipulative Kenny, suggests Willow wasn't strong and that is absolutely absurd. She was/is strong, like an Amazon.

No, I find it a slight at the power of Tara and Willows relationship to suggest such a thing as Willow being taken advantage of in this regard. I'm pretty sure you won't change your mind on this one, so we will have to agree to disagree, but for those who haven't made up your mind, watch the entire Willow storyline, from Season 1 to 7, and make your own mind up. Season 1 - 3 Willow may have fallen for the Manipulative Kenny, but because of Tara and her love, there is no way Willow could in season 7.

 

[nerd4hire]

I also think that's one of those "matter of opinion" things.

To me one of Willow's main character flaws is she's always looking for the quick fix. Also she has kind of an addictive personality. For example if we say Willow is at core a lesbian, we have to ask what's with these early attractions to Xander and Oz. One can explain that away by postulating the whole social acceptablility, and the problem with coming out issue. Quick fix. Find a guy. Once she's there her addictive personality takes over.

Same thing with post-Tara. Lots of pain there. She wants a way out. Quick fix - Kennedy.

 

[eponinethen]

Or you can believe that sexual "orientation" is a construction (as well as gender) and that Willow's sexual/romantic preferences changed as so many other things about her personality did.
(I tend to say that I am gay. But that's just to make things easier. I don't believe that anyone is this or that. I like to think of as "I identify as a gay woman".. or straight.. or whatever. What you identify as can change. Simple as that. To me.)

Doesn't mean the quick fix thing isn't true though.

 

[nerd4hire]

True, even if you want to go nurture over nature I can make the "quick fix" theory work, by saying Tara becomes a quick fix reaction to Willow's previous man problems. Wouldn't that be even more repellent to the lesbian view though? Also if that's the way it goes, then why not another man for Willow in the future? If the environment is what turned Willow gay (if sexual orientation is just a social construct), then why couldn't a different environment make her hetero?

 

[eponinethen]

Again, I don't think anyone can be gay or straight. But depending on different things – such as society and previous experiences but also choice and coincidence – we identify as one thing or another (although some people of course decide not to identify/label themselves). It could also mean that you fall for certain qualities, and that those qualities are (in our society) to 95% found among one of the sexes – which makes you fall for basically only men or women, which makes you believe you are completely gay/straight. (Which I think could be pretty accurate in Willow's case.)

So imo yes of course Willow might choose to be with a man some time in the future, it isn't completely unlikely – especially since she has obviously been with men and loved men before. Although, to me it seems that Willow is all about the ladies for now, and she doesn't really seem interested in changing her sexual preferences. But again, imo it could definitely happen.

(Wow it's hard to talk about these things in English 😀 )

 

[nerd4hire]

Well, I understand what you're saying, and that's a claim I can't always make with English people, so you must be doing a pretty good job. 🙂

You and me had a similar debate once before, didn't we? Do you remember? It concerned whether or not a case could be made for men and women writing differently. Basically, it's the same issue. Nature (key portions of a person's psyche are determined by their genetic make-up), versus Nurture (how people behave is determined by their interactions with their social and physical environments).

There are people who would tell us something like homosexuality is predetermined biologically. They would tell us this is a scientifically proven fact. As I recall, your argument to that goes - Science is a lot of hooey.

My personal opinion is there's a little bit of nature, and a little bit of nurture. Some science probably is a lot of hooey. When people tell me something is scientifically proven, and they start talking computer models, or using the generic term of "studies", I kind of roll my eyes, and go "yeah, right", even though that stuff has to be considered. On the other hand a lot of what they call science is pretty hard to deny.

 

[The Arcane]

I've definitely had this conversation here before (with Epo and BotD I believe) and I still stand by my opinion that Willow is and always was bisexual. The fact that she was shown to have very intimate feelings for both Oz and Tara was proof enough of that for me.

This isn't directed at anyone in this thread (or here at BB in general) as I've not seen the opinion I'm about to discuss here as such but I actually find it a great shame that people think suggesting Willow might be bisexual is somehow offensive or take something from her relationship with Tara. It's as if they assume that just because Willow still might potentially fall for a guy in the future then that means that her feeling for Tara were not as real. To me that is ridiculous.

As a straight guy in a current relationship I can honestly say that my feelings for my current girlfriend in no way take anything away from what I felt for any of the girls I was with in the past. I've had quite a few relationships over the years, some stronger than others, but none of them have ever made me stop and think "I love her now so maybe I didn't really love my last girlfriend as much". Of course I did, but feelings change as life changes.

In the case of Willow she has shown that she is capable of having intense feelings of love and lust for members of both genders. No matter who she ends up with in the future, whether it be a guy or a girl, will not have any effect on how much she loved Tara or how real that relationship was, just as her relationship with Tara could never destroy the reality of how she felt about Oz when they were together.

Quite simply, Willow is a bisexual girl currently choosing to live a homosexual lifestyle. Admitting her attraction for the male side of society doesn't change the fact she currently prefers girls but the fact is that she likes both sides of the gender coin.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Sorry if my comment seemed to suggest Willow was a Lesbian and its not right for her to be straight/bisexual.
I'm still of the belief she is gay, however the comment I posted(while under some influence) was more at the suggestion that post Tara, Willow was manipulated by Kennedy.

I have had the Willow Gay-Straight-Bisexual conversation far too many times to really want to go into it again, so 'rock on' if you like, but i'ma sit it out.
I just feel that the suggestion Willow could give in easily to a bratty kid because she was in a place to be takes away the strength Tara ultimately gave her, is all.

Willow wants to ride the 'cock-monster' again, fair play.
I know I would LOVE her to end up with Oz now that Tara is no more, but thats something for my mind.

 

[The Arcane]

Just so you know, BotD, my last post was in no way a direct response to yours. Your previous comment actually was what got me thinking about other opinions I have read in various other places but it wasn't what you posted that I was talking about.

And I'd like to see Willow and Oz get back together too, but only if the "Tara back from the dead" storyline never happens. 😉

 

[nerd4hire]

What if Willow hooked up with the Immortal? Wouldn't that be a twist? 🙂

I'd almost like to see something like that, just for the fan reaction.

 

[The Arcane]

Especially if my theory about the Immortal looking exactly like Joss happens to be true.

Now that would be a headtrip! 😀

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

What do we feel of a 'Wiles' relationship?
Agewise, hugely different, but its a meeting of minds.

I'd kinda be happy for Giles to get some for a change, and you couldn't fault him going for a bit of the Willow!!!

 

[The Arcane]

I've said before around here, age difference in a relationship means nothing to me as long as both parties are willing, happy and legal. I've seen as many successful "age-gap" relationships work as I have seen relationships where the two people are the same age totally fall apart. The age thing is meaningless if your ideal partner happens to have been born a decade (or more) before or after you were. Be with whoever makes you happy, no matter what.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

So that a yay or nay for Giles getting some hot red head loving?

 

[eponinethen]

You and me had a similar debate once before, didn't we? Do you remember?

Right, Shakespeare eh? 😛

My personal opinion is there's a little bit of nature, and a little bit of nurture. Some science probably is a lot of hooey. When people tell me something is scientifically proven, and they start talking computer models, or using the generic term of "studies", I kind of roll my eyes, and go "yeah, right", even though that stuff has to be considered. On the other hand a lot of what they call science is pretty hard to deny.

Well I am all for science, I just think they're sometimes making things a bit to hard on themselves, and sometimes a bit too simple. I don't think it's about determining if "you are born homosexual". I think that gender is a construction. That doesn't mean that I as a [constructed but still] woman, can prefer to only be with [biologically or not] men, my entire life. And sure most do, and that's not weird at all! I am not arguing that everyone is bisexual, I am arguing that gender is constructed and that the whole theory of "homosexual-bisexual-heterosexual" if slightly off and doesn't make sense.
Therefor, discussing whether you're born gay or not, isn't really the interesting part 😉

(EDIT: Why do I always have to get into these things? Why can't I just stay out of it? Sometimes I get sick of myself, lol..)

 

[Black Eye Guy]

What about that time that Willow kinda confirmed to Tara that she was a lesbian, and wasn't gonna head back to buy town in The Body?

I could see Willow haveing a boyfriend again, it wouldn't be that supriseing, I think it would be an intresting storyline, to see Willow cope with haveing feelings for a boy, and what that means for her.