Differentiating Between Angel and Angelus

[ashleigh]

I really hate that Angel seems to act as though Angelus isn't him. To me it's like he's trying to justify all the terrible things he did as Angelus, or that he doesn't accept that he did them. I don't see how he can ever seek redemption if he doesn't accept that it was him that carried out those actions. It's made clear that Angelus is always a part of him. Just...grr. 😛

I didn't really care about this before, but it becomes more prevalent halfway through S4 of Angel, and it annoyed me greatly 😡

So to prevent this just being a thread of me being annoyed - does anyone else feel like Angel is copping-out by differentiating between himself and Angelus?

 

[Jodast]

They are different, to a certain extent, but the differentiation was made all the way back in season 1 of Buffy and certainly in season 2. It is made clear that we are to accept Angel as a scooby and Angelus is the Big Bad. I know that I like the idea of the vampire with and without a soul to create two different characters and a ton of possible storylines.

As for season 4 of Angel....well, to be honest I don't know. I didn't watch it that far through the first time around and I haven't finsihed season 1 on my re-watch yet.

 

[Kean]

I really, really don't.

Angel actively pursues redemption for the very reason that he feels that Angelus' deeds are his deeds and that he is responsible for them. If he didn't feel he was then he wouldn't be seeking redemption at all, he would just be a guy fighting demons. Everything Angel is, is based on him feeling that he is responsible for Angelus' actions, is guilty of those actions, feeling that Angelus is part of who he is.

Personally, I think they are different entities, but Angel doesn't feel that way. His whole story is about how much he struggles with how much of Angelus is him.

 

[Vamp Jenny]

As much as I love Angel, yes. I hate when people compare him to Stefan from TVD, but I feel like there's no better way to address this.

Angel never really accepted that Angelus was a part of him. Yes, he was soulless, but he already had this impulsive/destroying personnality as a human. Just like Stefan that went on a killing spree for a few years at a time (which could be compared to Angelus, for Stefan was crazy enough to actuallyrip off his victims and piece them back together. The only thing that doesn't apply is Stefan's guilt).

Angelus, is the worst part of Angel, his most dark side. He is his restrained darkness that doesn't fear anything. The ripper in Stefan is also the worst part of him. He kills without remorse and even write the names of his victims down, so he can relive the kill whenever he wants. On different levels, those two are equally sadistic.

Now where it differs for both of them is that Angel doesn't want redemption without his soul. There is absolutely no good left in him when he is Angelus. Stefan does try to redeem himself eventually (usually with the help of Damon, from what we know).

As for what you said. I don't think Angel accepts the fact that there is a part of him that doesn't want to do good. And no matter how much I love him, this makes me give a bit more respect for Stefan, who aknowledges(sp??) his dark side and does try to work for his redemption without forgetting that the ripper is part of who he is.

 

[Kean]

ashleigh agrees: Hmm...true. This post makes me feel slightly less annoyed with Angel right now.

LOL.

If Angel does anything, it is he learns to handle the guilt better, rather than be crippled by it. As he goes on, how he reacts to his redemption (and why it is even necessary) evolves. I don't feel he starts acting like he and Angelus are separate, but that he can do something. Rather than passively being buried by the weight of what Angelus (and his soulled self) did, he is spurred into action by it. He doesn't believe he can truly make any of it "right" but he can do good. And that counts. It's all that counts.

 

[white avenger]

I've heard Angel with a soul compared to Angelus with a muzzle, and I won't go that far. I do, however, see Angel as the Dr Jekyll to Angelus' Mr Hyde. Angel is a man with a monster living within him, and he has to constantly be alert to keep that monster under control. It's an impossible task, and we see him lose that control on more than one occasion, even without losing his soul. The thing about Angel that makes him the hero that he is, isn't that he can control his monster, but that he never stops trying. He's like Captain Kirk, who, when told that man is a born killer, unable to depress his destructive instincts, replied, "Yes, we ARE all killers. But we can still say, 'I'm not going to kill...today.' And we keep saying that every day."

(And comparing Ol' Broody to Captain James T Kirk, hero, all around nice guy, and interstellar stud, is just about the highest compliment that I can imagine)

 

[Buffy Summers]

In all fairness to Angel, lol, it is written as if Angel and Angelus ARE two different people. I don't think he acts like Angelus isn't in him though - it's the entire reason for the broodiness lol

 

[Kairos]

Every single character in either show who has had more than a line about Angel has done more to differentiate him from Angelus than Angel has himself.

 

[Kean]

Every single character in either show who has had more than a line about Angel has done more to differentiate him from Angelus than Angel has himself.

I agree. As I said above, I fully believe Angelus and Angel to be separate entities, and I think the show is pretty emphatic about wanting us to view them in that manner. However, I do think Angel's experience if Angelus causes him to feel that they are part of the same core identity. Remembering everything Angelus ever did, ever enjoyed makes Angel feel like the monster. I'd also wager that he still savours some of those memories, which only compounds his belief that he is the monster and that he has to repent, not only for Angelus' actions or his own soulled actions, but for the enjoyment or nostalgia he may feel about the memories he has of Angelus. I think Angel believes that even with a soul, he is capable of anything Angelus did, and he repents for that. For the "man" in him.

I often feel that Angel's human past weighs heavily, if silently, on his story. If Angel's redemption, his opinion on it and how he is trying to achieve it, could be summed up, I think it would look like the Confiteor prayer.

I confess, to Almighty God
and you, my brothers and sisters
that I have sinned through my own fault.
In my thoughts and in my words
in what I have done
and what I have failed to do.
And I ask the Blessed Mary ever Virgin
All the Angels and Saints
and you, my brothers and sisters
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

That's it. His life is the personification of this prayer. I don't think he is necessarily praying to God or Our Lady, nor do I believe would he ever ask anyone to pray for him (because he would feel unworthy of it), but I think his redemption is a plea to the universe for forgiveness, or at the very least, for the chance to be better.