"Ding dong the bitch is dead"

[itssmiletime]

[MENTION=12470]The Bronze[/MENTION]:

You are only the law unless if you are elected. She is a vigilante, in charge of a gang of people. She's only the leader because she has power. And the more times people in the scoobies stood up to her, the less influence she had. Willow stopped giving a shit what Buffy thought in S4. Having power does not equal being the law. Unless their is an election and democratically progressed, I'm not going to recognise you being the law, you are just a vigilante. And if her opinion is given automatic more weight because she is the slayer, yeah, well I'm gonna demand perfection. 'But it is what it is' is simply not good enough.

No one has to be the 'law'. I just find the quote to be insanely dumb and arrogant on a level I didn't even know existed. Nothing against people taking issues into their own hands, really, don't care. Just don't act like you're gods gift to mankind, and that you are a martyr, or that your opinion has more weight. None of A.I act like the 'law'- sure Wesley and Angel can act like dicks, but never the level that Buffy reaches and most importantly, the team gets shit done.


Also, it should be noted that Buffy did not save the world in The Gift. All you need to do to save the world is to execute Dawn. Who came up with the idea of using the troll hammer and Dagon Sphere? Anya. Who killed Ben? Giles. Who figured out that Ben was Glory? Spike. Who hurt Glory first? Willow. So yeah, Buffy can rot in prison... and the world would still be there. Or you can kill Faith, and a new slayer is activated.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I always look at the situation as if I were one of the potentials.

If I were in the house, and since I'd gotten there, people had died, people had killed themselves, the bad guys mocks us regularly, our leader takes us into a place were we get our asses handed to us, more people die, some of her friends are injured in a way that hasn't happened before, it's clear this is worse then any situation they've been in before.

Then the leader wants to go back into that place with the exact same plan she used before and failed with...

Yeah, that leader should probably shut up for a while.

Buffy isn't a leader, she's a slayer. Which isn't the same, she's had her group but she's never lead them in battle like she has to the potentials, this is her first time leading an army. It make sense she'd fail, the Slayer isn't meant to lead an army of Slayers, their meant to fight alone.

Look at the difference between The vineyard attack and the attack in Chosen. Buffy in both cases wanted to take the fight to them, in the vineyard she gathered a group of people and shoved them into a room with the bad guys, in Chosen she delegated roles, she had her team of fighters, she had various back up teams positioned through the school and she had Willow casting a spell somewhere else. She actually used her people, she gave them roles - thats leadership, not the ridiculous "plan" she had in the vineyard, a plan that is proven to be stupid, by the fact she goes in and gets the scythe by herself.

I also dont think her track record should matter, peoples history are taken into account for stuff like that in real life armies, but if that person messed up as badly as Buffy did, they would also be demoted or have to answer to someone, Buffy didn't think she had to answer to anyone, but she did.

 

[The Bronze]

@itssmiletime

She's the law by default. Humanity hasn't got together and sorted out a legal system to deal with non human problems. Therefore there's a clear void and Sunnydale is lucky that Buffy stepped in to fill it. She'd be a vigilante if she was dealing with human problems instead of the police. The town could have a democratic vote of who they'd like to deal with the demon problem and ask Buffy to step aside. But they don't and all in all I suspect the population is quite relieved they have someone willing to put themselves on the line.

Just don't act like you're gods gift to mankind, and that you are a martyr, or that your opinion has more weight.

She doesn't have to act like anything. She spends her time saving people individually and the world as a whole. She's also died twice for the cause. So I'd say she's close enough to a gift for mankind and a martyr.

Also, it should be noted that Buffy did not save the world in The Gift. All you need to do to save the world is to execute Dawn. Who came up with the idea of using the troll hammer and Dagon Sphere? Anya. Who killed Ben? Giles. Who figured out that Ben was Glory? Spike. Who hurt Glory first? Willow. So yeah, Buffy can rot in prison... and the world would still be there. Or you can kill Faith, and a new slayer is activated.

Well a lot of this is if's and but's. Maybe the world would have survived Glory maybe not. I'd love to hear your reaction to the person who took it upon themselves to execute Dawn given the fact you think Buffy should be rotting in jail for touching her. As for the rest of it I'm not sure how it would play out. My guess is things would go worse without Buffy, much like in the Wishverse

 

[itssmiletime]

[MENTION=12470]The Bronze[/MENTION]:

Well, imo, Buffy has no right whatsoever to be law of the demon community considering she thought the way to kill a vengeance demon would be a sword through the chest which just goes to show how ignorant she is. I define vigilante as someone who takes issues into their own hands, no matter what they are. Buffy is a vigilante- just because the community haven't elected anyone, doesn't mean it automatically falls to her.

The difference between Buffy hitting Dawn is that Buffy did have a clear choice. She didn't have to. There is no choice regarding The Gift. Dawn had to die, otherwise, everyone else dies. It's a no brainier. Honestly, whoever executes Dawn is just doing what has to be done. Buffy didn't need to hit Dawn. I don't even think those two situations can even be compared.

Well Buffy's not the only one whose died for the cause. She's not the only person who saves people individually. And no, she is not a gift to mankind. She is a self righteous, incredibly ignorant individual. In S1-6, yeah maybe, but in S7, honestly, the world would be a better place if someone took out Buffy... I mean, between violating the genetic code for over 2000 woman, and being an ignorant dumbass, did she do any good whatsoever in S7?

 

[The Bronze]

@itssmiletime

Well, imo, Buffy has no right whatsoever to be law of the demon community considering she thought the way to kill a vengeance demon would be a sword through the chest which just goes to show how ignorant she is. I define vigilante as someone who takes issues into their own hands, no matter what they are. Buffy is a vigilante- just because the community haven't elected anyone, doesn't mean it automatically falls to her.

Well obviously you're entitled to your own opinion. We saw on screen how well a Buffyless (and therefore lawless) Sunnydale was panning out.

Well Buffy's not the only one whose died for the cause. She's not the only person who saves people individually. And no, she is not a gift to mankind. She is a self righteous, incredibly ignorant individual. In S1-6, yeah maybe, but in S7, honestly, the world would be a better place if someone took out Buffy... I mean, between violating the genetic code for over 2000 woman, and being an ignorant dumbass, did she do any good whatsoever in S7?

I'd consider her a gift to mankind if I was alive in the Buffyverse. How could you not? She's saved the entire species, what more of a gift would you be looking for? Did she do any good at all? Aside from putting up and offering protection to countless people in her own house and coming up with the plan to shut the hellmouth and stop the first?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

[MENTION=12470]The Bronze[/MENTION]:

Well, imo, Buffy has no right whatsoever to be law of the demon community considering she thought the way to kill a vengeance demon would be a sword through the chest which just goes to show how ignorant she is. I define vigilante as someone who takes issues into their own hands, no matter what they are. Buffy is a vigilante- just because the community haven't elected anyone, doesn't mean it automatically falls to her.

Since the Slayer predates laws I think that point is kinda invalid.

It's like saying we should prosecute lions for killing antelope becasue their committing murder, their not committing murder that is the natural order, it predates law and law doesn't apply to it

A slayer killing demon is a natural law.

Also her stabbing a vengeance demon isn't ignorant, she was fighting her, it was the first move she made, Anya even says "you know better then that" not "you SHOULD know better then that" that move wasn't a killing blow.

Well Buffy's not the only one whose died for the cause. She's not the only person who saves people individually. And no, she is not a gift to mankind. She is a self righteous, incredibly ignorant individual. In S1-6, yeah maybe, but in S7, honestly, the world would be a better place if someone took out Buffy... I mean, between violating the genetic code for over 2000 woman, and being an ignorant dumbass, did she do any good whatsoever in S7?

I dont think she was a good leader in season 7, but ignorant is the wrong word for it.

What does the fact that Buffy isn't the only one that died for the cause matter?

And Buffy didn't die for the cause she sacrificed herself for it. The statement the world would be a better place without Buffy doesn't make sense, she was messing up as a leader, but it was her plan to activate the potentials and she was the one who got the scythe, without her the plan isn't possible, if Buffy had been killed mid season they wouldn't have gotten the scythe, Buffy was right in what she was doing, but went about it in the wrong way.

She didn't violate the genetic code for 2000 women, she gave them a choice. Without her doing that, one of 1800 women would become a slayer and HAVE to fight, then she'd die and another could be called and another and so on, by activating them all they can choose to fight or they can choose to ignore it. Potentials already have some degree of power, they are already selected, had she not been around and not activated them, there might have been 1800 dead women.

 

[itssmiletime]

[MENTION=12470]The Bronze[/MENTION]:

The problems that were with Wishverse wasn't the lack of Buffy, it was more to do with the fact that the Master had risen and was successful. Also- it should be noted that even the town themselves seemed to be more aware of the increase of vampires- curfews, dress code suggestions, etc. It was never a matter of Buffy not being there- it's a matter of The Master existing and being able to walk.

Whatever good Buffy did in S7 is clearly outweighed by the bad. Her pressuring friends to do magic in a public setting, toying with people's lives regarding Spike's trigger, a lack of respect for the potentials, her dumb plan in Chosen, her, without their consent (which is honestly- a big enough reason for me) changes the genetic code for over 2000 woman,etc. I mean, sure she saves the world, and that's great, but considering how she treated people in S7... I have to withdraw respect.

[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]: If the Slayer predates law, so does man, warlocks, witches, demons, etc. If a slayer kills a vampire, well, it's honestly no different whatsoever to a demon hunter killing a vampire. It's never an act of law, more people doing what they think is right. Buffy explains in Intervention that she kills demons to 'make the world a better place' yet that attitude is the same as Giles, Willow, Xander, Anya, etc.

Also, the scythe isn't needed at all, to win the battle (neither is the amulet or the activation spell). All you need to do is to get Willow to do her ball of sunshine spell within the hellmouth. Or let's not forget that at Buffy's side was the Initiative and W&H, the fact that the town was evacuated, etc. They seriously could have won with Buffy dying.

Also, the spell, I fail to see much of a choice there. Even if they refuse to fight, they still have to deal with prophecy dreams. The fact that there was no consent whatsoever, and that it wasn't necessary- is a big enough reason for me. Yes, potentials had already been violated by being potentials. So why violate them further?

Buffy being called ignorant is because she sincerely believes that a speech or an act of 'tough love' is enough for them to 'snap out of' feelings of uncertainty. She does nothing at all about Spike's trigger. She dismisses people's points of views based on their 'position' making her look like an elitist. She seriously believes that being strict is a sign of being a good leader.

 

[Buffy Summers]

The Premise of The Wishverse is that because Buffy never came to Sunnydale, The Master succeeded in rising. Because Buffy was not there to kill him.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

The problems that were with Wishverse wasn't the lack of Buffy, it was more to do with the fact that the Master had risen and was successful.

This makes no sense, it's still the point The Bronze made, the lack of Buffy was why the Maser was able to rise and was a success?

Whatever good Buffy did in S7 is clearly outweighed by the bad. Her pressuring friends to do magic in a public setting,

But she didn't push Willow further then she could handle it, Willow was under utilising her power becasue she was afraid of it.

toying with people's lives regarding Spike's trigger, a lack of respect for the potentials,

This I agree with, she didn't given the potentials enough respect, but expected it from them. And her keeping Spike around was beyond dangerous and stupid.

If the Slayer predates law, so does man, warlocks, witches, demons, etc. If a slayer kills a vampire, well, it's honestly no different whatsoever to a demon hunter killing a vampire. It's never an act of law, more people doing what they think is right.

But it's not just people doing what they think is right, it is right. Yes other people kill demons, but demons dont fear them like they do the Slayer, there are a few instances throughout the show, were Buffy is refereed to as almost a boogeyman to demons. But there is a direct correlation between no having no slayer and people dying - The Wish and Bargaining show us that.

Buffy explains in Intervention that she kills demons to 'make the world a better place' yet that attitude is the same as Giles, Willow, Xander, Anya, etc.

Yeah but the difference is their just talk, they aren't capable of taking on demons the same way Buffy is.

Also, the scythe isn't needed at all, to win the battle (neither is the amulet or the activation spell). All you need to do is to get Willow to do her ball of sunshine spell within the hellmouth. Or let's not forget that at Buffy's side was the Initiative and W&H, the fact that the town was evacuated, etc. They seriously could have won with Buffy dying.

But without Buffy there to push Willow to do magic, Willow wouldn't have. Like I said I think she may not have gone about things right but she was right, like if she were dead they others wouldn't have tried again at the vineyard, or gone there in the first place so no Scythe.
No one would have been there to push Willow, so they wouldn't have one of the most powerful witches on their side.
And Willow never managed to actually do that sunlight spell. She makes a ball of light in season 4, but it doesn't seem to be the simulated sunlight she's trying to make in season 5. Which she never successfully does, and the fact we never see her use that spell when she's at her most powerful, in like Barganing when their in the graveyard hunting a vampire, kinda suggests it wouldn't work. It's not till after Buffy convinces her she can do the Slayer spell that Willow becomes capable of doing basically anything, like she can in season 8.

The Initiative helping Buffy by removing Spikes chip out is one thing, but I doubt they'd give her soldiers to go to war.

Also I really can't see W&H doing anything, they gave Angel the amulet in exchange for him taking over as CEO, and he took it to help Buffy.

Also, the spell, I fail to see much of a choice there. Even if they refuse to fight, they still have to deal with prophecy dreams. The fact that there was no consent whatsoever, and that it wasn't necessary- is a big enough reason for me. Yes, potentials had already been violated by being potentials. So why violate them further?

But it's not violating, they are already chosen, they have improved strength, agility and speed, isn't it also mentioned they have the dreams as well. Drams of them being other Slayers to prepare them for their future, they are already given that burden, all Buffy did was make it so none of them HAVE to be a slayer if they are chosen.

Buffy being called ignorant is because she sincerely believes that a speech or an act of 'tough love' is enough for them to 'snap out of' feelings of uncertainty. She does nothing at all about Spike's trigger. She dismisses people's points of views based on their 'position' making her look like an elitist. She seriously believes that being strict is a sign of being a good leader.

Yeah I agree with that, but they point is she grows from that. That is what she's like and they kick her out of the house for it, rightfully so imo, when she comes back she is more understanding.

The speech she gives the girls in Chosen isn't a tough love speech, it isn't 'we're chosen, we have to fight so tomorrow we go into the hellmouth and take on the first', the speech she gives them is encouraging and she tells them they have a choice, they unfortunately don't get a choice in getting the slayer power, but thats just the hand fate dealt them in making them potentials, but she given them a choice to use that power, they dont have to fight because they are chosen to, the can fight if they choose to.

Because of that, becasue she shows them respect they all fall in behind her and choose to fight, even with a seriously risky plan, they choose to believe in her at that point becasue she's being a proper leader.

I think it goes right back to season 1, ever heard the expression "Do as I say not as I do" Buffy had been telling them to do as she says, but she never did what others said, in Prophecy Girl she finds out she's going to die, she freaks out a bit but then she chooses to fight, she may believe she's going to die, but it's still her fight and she chooses to fight it. They were completely correct to kick her out, because it showed her she'd become someone she would never listen to, and she became a better leader for it.

 

[slayer6]

well fact is buffy was right all along with the plan to go back to the vineyard everyone was scared and buffy could have gone about it in a better way but when it comesd down to it she was right. Not to mention she saved the world countless times so she should have the trust of the group. Also they were going to war to save the world and lives being lost is an inevitability these people were so used to being kept safe by buffy and shielded from big bad that when it came time for everyone to stand up they were acted like it was all buffy's fault when people died

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=12470]The Bronze[/MENTION]:
Also, the scythe isn't needed at all, to win the battle (neither is the amulet or the activation spell). All you need to do is to get Willow to do her ball of sunshine spell within the hellmouth. Or let's not forget that at Buffy's side was the Initiative and W&H, the fact that the town was evacuated, etc. They seriously could have won with Buffy dying.

Also, the spell, I fail to see much of a choice there. Even if they refuse to fight, they still have to deal with prophecy dreams. The fact that there was no consent whatsoever, and that it wasn't necessary- is a big enough reason for me. Yes, potentials had already been violated by being potentials. So why violate them further?

Yes! This! The "Chosen" final fight had virtually nothing to do with the Scythe, the activation spell or Buffy at all. In the end, they won by luck. They had no clue what the amulet was capable of. I suppose the argument could be made that without the activated Slayers in line to defend Spike, he would have died and the amulet never would have worked. That kind of falls apart though when you consider that even though that's what went down, it certainly wasn't by design. I never even thought of the light spell before.

And I'm sorry, but "Chosen" should never, ever be used as a study in strong or sensible tactical thinking. I know it's Buffy's show, but come on now. She has the combined might of The Initiative and Wolfram & Hart at her disposal, and she completely neglects to use either one of them. She just seems to forget that Riley exists, and she turns Angel and his near infinite resources away because she's afraid of a little awkwardness with Spike. Are you freaking kidding me? There's a reason overwhelming force is the dominant military maxim in the western world. Because it works. To not bring Riley or Angel on board is inexcusable. There's no other way I can even look at it. And that isn't even touching on the actual operation itself, which is so dumb it's almost criminal. Seriously, even with Willow activating the dozen or so Slayers in the Hellmouth, what are they going to do against literally tens of thousands of uber-vamps?

And I have never understood the line of thinking that "they have a choice" in regards to the newly activated Slayers. They don't. At all. Sure, they can not fight, but that means carrying the knowledge that their reluctance will lead to innocent people being killed. They still have to deal with lifelong Slayer dreams that have been shown to torment the Slayers on the show. They still have their bodies irreversibly changed without any sort of knowledge or consent and they still become instant targets of any demon, vampire or psycho with a grudge or agenda. What choice is that? Hell, the AtS S5 episode "Damage" illustrates perfectly the sheer stupidity of Buffy and Willow's activation scheme.

Buffy being called ignorant is because she sincerely believes that a speech or an act of 'tough love' is enough for them to 'snap out of' feelings of uncertainty. She does nothing at all about Spike's trigger. She dismisses people's points of views based on their 'position' making her look like an elitist. She seriously believes that being strict is a sign of being a good leader.

Exactly. Being a warrior and being a leader are two very different things. They're not mutually exclusive of course, but they don't just go hand-in-hand naturally. S7 seems, to me at least, to be a projection of what Joss THINKS is leadership. In reality however, it isn't.

@Black Eyed Guy,

The Initiative helping Buffy by removing Spikes chip out is one thing, but I doubt they'd give her soldiers to go to war.

Also I really can't see W&H doing anything, they gave Angel the amulet in exchange for him taking over as CEO, and he took it to help Buffy.

Really? The United States government is confronted with a massive ground invasion on their own soil and aren't going to respond? Really? Ten American fighter jets could have destroyed the entire Turok-Han horde. Not to mention the ridiculous logistical issues they would have faced with, you know, daylight.

W&H gave Angel complete autonomy and control over their organization. What he says goes, for better or worse. If he'd activated them, they would have come.

 

[The Bronze]

@itssmiletime

The problems that were with Wishverse wasn't the lack of Buffy, it was more to do with the fact that the Master had risen and was successful. Also- it should be noted that even the town themselves seemed to be more aware of the increase of vampires- curfews, dress code suggestions, etc. It was never a matter of Buffy not being there- it's a matter of The Master existing and being able to walk.

Erm as pointed out above The Master is wandering around because Buffy wasn't there to stop him. This is exactly my point. If Buffy is not around to be the "law" in Sunnydale this is what you end up with because no one else is capable.

Whatever good Buffy did in S7 is clearly outweighed by the bad. Her pressuring friends to do magic in a public setting, toying with people's lives regarding Spike's trigger, a lack of respect for the potentials, her dumb plan in Chosen, her, without their consent (which is honestly- a big enough reason for me) changes the genetic code for over 2000 woman,etc. I mean, sure she saves the world, and that's great, but considering how she treated people in S7... I have to withdraw respect.

I'd chalk it up as the good outweighing the bad. What with the uber vamps not roaming around the planet and the first not entering every man, woman and child on earth. Definitely more good than bad.

I don't really understand the line of thinking with the activation spell either. It was Buffy's brainwave. That's it. Willow performed the spell. You want to be upset with someone then that's where it needs to be aimed. I'd love to see someone try to force Willow into performing something she didn't want to, can't imagine that would end very well. Also it's probably worth remembering that they had a room full of potentials whose little faces lit up when Buffy told them her idea. Buffy: "would you like to be able to fight back next time someone is hunting you down". Potentials: "yes please".

Now i suppose Buffy could have got Willow to do a locating spell and individually tracked down all 2000? potentials and asked them their opinion on the matter while the first and the uber vamps were destroying everything in sight but I think the representative sample in the house were enough.

@Robb Stark

She has the combined might of The Initiative and Wolfram & Hart at her disposal, and she completely neglects to use either one of them.

Do you blame her for this? Really blame her? I'm not saying that the plan in Chosen is the worlds greatest bit of military strategy and maybe it did work out just because it had to for the show. But what kind of guarentee of help would she really have got from The Initiative or Wolfram & Hart? W&H are trying to bring about the apocalypse. That's their aim in life. Maybe they'd come in, help for a bit and then wipe out Buffy and co. They're hardly a trust worthy bunch. Then you've got The Initiative. Slightly more trust worthy I suppose but hardly big fans of listening to Buffy. They could have helped or they might have got in the way. Hell they might even have bombed the whole place before giving an evacuation order. All in all I wouldn't trust either as far as I could throw them and I'm not surprised Buffy didn't either.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Yeah what show are you guys watching that she has The Initiative and W&H 'at her disposal'

Riley didn't lead the initiative, he worked for it. Buffy couldn't even get in contact with him, she managed to get a message to them, but she doesn't ring them up and be like, "Hi can I borrow the army, cheers", if she did they'd take over, they dont follow her lead, they expect her to follow theirs.

Also what would W&H do exactly, they dont have an army, they employ demons, Angel had just gotten W&H, and he had trouble controlling the firm over the course of season 5, doubt they'd have been eager to help him on his first 24 hours in office.

And people aren't arguing that Chosen was good tactical thinking, it was better leadership then she'd used before.

And I have never understood the line of thinking that "they have a choice" in regards to the newly activated Slayers. They don't. At all. Sure, they can not fight, but that means carrying the knowledge that their reluctance will lead to innocent people being killed. They still have to deal with lifelong Slayer dreams that have been shown to torment the Slayers on the show. They still have their bodies irreversibly changed without any sort of knowledge or consent and they still become instant targets of any demon, vampire or psycho with a grudge or agenda. What choice is that? Hell, the AtS S5 episode "Damage" illustrates perfectly the sheer stupidity of Buffy and Willow's activation scheme.

they already have that!!

So they shouldn't have activated all the slayers just so Dana would be okay, she's the exception not the rule?

Dana might have been the next slayer anyway, so they dont activate the slayers, they all die, Dana becomes the next slayer, in the mean time The first overruns the earth, Danas basically helping him as she's off killing people - how is this a better plan?

Any activated Slayer pre spell HAD to fight, they couldn't walk away from it, any slayer post spell could. I'm pretty sure they'd be okay walking away from it knowing their are 1799 other girls out there killing evil, when a few months ago there was 1 (well 2).

Also Slayers aren't targets, The council, Buffy and The First had issues finding potentials, demons dont seek them out. Vampires like Spike sought them out, but at that time there was 1, so she would have been a target, but if your an active slayer but not actively fighting their also not going to come for you.

Their bodies are already changed, each potential carries the slayer power, there isn't one slayer power that passes from one girl to the next, since Faith is active and Buffy retains her power we know that for certain. The potentials already have increased abilities and slayer dreams to prepare them.

Also Buffy and Co track down every single slayer in the world and explain what happened to them, so it's not like they activated them then let them run wild, they took responsibility for what they did and did the best with it they could.

 

[Robb Stark]

they already have that!!

So they shouldn't have activated all the slayers just so Dana would be okay, she's the exception not the rule?

Dana might have been the next slayer anyway, so they dont activate the slayers, they all die, Dana becomes the next slayer, in the mean time The first overruns the earth, Danas basically helping him as she's off killing people - how is this a better plan?

Also Slayers aren't targets, The council, Buffy and The First had issues finding potentials, demons dont seek them out. Vampires like Spike sought them out, but at that time there was 1, so she would have been a target, but if your an active slayer but not actively fighting their also not going to come for you.

Their bodies are already changed, each potential carries the slayer power, there isn't one slayer power that passes from one girl to the next, since Faith is active and Buffy retains her power we know that for certain. The potentials already have increased abilities and slayer dreams to prepare them.

Also Buffy and Co track down every single slayer in the world and explain what happened to them, so it's not like they activated them then let them run wild, they took responsibility for what they did and did the best with it they could.

Dude, I'm sorry, but your logic does not resemble our Earth logic. The activated Potentials do not save the world. Spike saves the world with a W&H device that Buffy and friends had no idea about. You didn't answer my point about, minus the amulet, what exactly Buffy and 15 or so newly minted Slayers intended to do against ten thousand plus Turok-Han. Spell or not, without the amulet and Spike/Angel/whoever to wear it, they all die. The spell and the Scythe meant absolutely nothing. It was a nice message to the viewer that didn't make any sort of rational plot sense.

I never said Dana was guaranteed to become the next active Slayer, that's just something you're putting into my mouth. And Slayers are totally targets. Sure, demons generally run from them, but certainly not all of them. They're a magnet for trouble. We see that every season. And from what I recollect, Buffy and her team track some of the Slayers down, not all. If I'm wrong (and I freely admit I could be), please reference the S8 issue and page number. At the same time, please tell me where it's stated the Potentials have Slayer dreams. I don't remember Buffy having them before activated (again, I haven't seen S7 in a while, so I could have easily missed it).

It's still wrong. When it's pretty darn clear there's no strategic value to defeating The First by activating the Potentials, dreams or not, it's still wrong to toy with 2000 girls like that. Yes, one of them would have become the next Slayer. ONE. Not all of them. Your whole argument seems to hinge on that. And clearly from what we see on the show, some have zero notion about their potential powers or the supernatural. Look at Buffy when she's first activated. She was clueless about all of it, and there was a huge difference between her supposedly "enhanced reflexes" (which I don't even really recall at all) and her new Slayer powers. There's not a single indication that she had any idea whatsoever about the Slaying world prior to her activation. Why would that be so different for the rest of them worldwide? Now, because of Buffy and Willow's incompetence, they all are, good bad and ugly. All the people Dana and Simonne murdered, tortured or destroyed? That's all on Buffy's head. Explain to me how you can see it otherwise.

 

[janas]

Look at Buffy when she's first activated. She was clueless about all of it, and there was a huge difference between her supposedly "enhanced reflexes" (which I don't even really recall at all) and her new Slayer powers. There's not a single indication that she had any idea whatsoever about the Slaying world prior to her activation. Why would that be so different for the rest of them worldwide? Now, because of Buffy and Willow's incompetence, they all are, good bad and ugly. All the people Dana and Simonne murdered, tortured or destroyed? That's all on Buffy's head. Explain to me how you can see it otherwise.

There's something different, because unlike Buffy, all their knew to be potential before becoming slayers. All they, had already an watcher (all killed by the Bringers of the First) and Giles took them under his custody.

Potential activated with the magic of Willow, were contacted by Andrew and Co in the eighth season, and Buffy has trained his army. I must say that I'm not sure that the choice of Buffy was a good choice, but from his POV, she broke the rule decided by others. No longer the Chosen one, but all slayers. Buffy has shared power.

I realize that she has sentenced an army of girls to live in a terrible way, life that Buffy didn't want to, since even in the ninth season, she still dreams of living a normal life ..but at that moment, seemed the right choice.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Dude, I'm sorry, but your logic does not resemble our Earth logic. The activated Potentials do not save the world. Spike saves the world with a W&H device that Buffy and friends had no idea about. You didn't answer my point about, minus the amulet, what exactly Buffy and 15 or so newly minted Slayers intended to do against ten thousand plus Turok-Han. Spell or not, without the amulet and Spike/Angel/whoever to wear it, they all die. The spell and the Scythe meant absolutely nothing. It was a nice message to the viewer that didn't make any sort of rational plot sense.

W&H amulet sped up the process, but I think the plan was for the Slayers to kill them all, or kill enough that the balance to evil wouldn't be possible. Since it's always been 1 slayer vs a world full of demons, The odds aren't too bad for like 22 slayers vs an army.

Also The Amulet was part of the plan, it wasn't like activating the slayers was the plan and the amulet happened to kick in. The plan was to fight first and battle them till the amulet kick in, there is no fighting that war with a bunch of potentials, they needed slayers to do that.

I'd also argue that since The Firsts plan rest on the fact The Balance is messed up, activating the Slayers would play a factor in the balance, out weighing good over The First. It's also interesting that the amulet activates once Buffy kick it up a notch and we have that moment were she gets up all powerful and the music swells and everything we're being shown is to suggest the battle is turning in their favor.

I never said Dana was guaranteed to become the next active Slayer, that's just something you're putting into my mouth.

no I didn't? I was the one who suggested Dana was the next slayer it was a hypothectical, based on the fact she is a potential, I said she 'might have been the next slayer'.

And Slayers are totally targets. Sure, demons generally run from them, but certainly not all of them. They're a magnet for trouble. We see that every season

but thats becasue there is only one, so it's their mission/duty to fight all evil, now that duty is shared.

And from what I recollect, Buffy and her team track some of the Slayers down, not all. If I'm wrong (and I freely admit I could be), please reference the S8 issue and page number.

Season 8, issue 1, Page 4 ( I think, that pic of Buffy jumping from the helicopter takes up 2 pages. She says "There used to be one slayer in all the world. Eighteen hundred now that we've counted."

They also find Slayers once they activate, The potential Soledad becomes activated on her 16th birthday, she see's the slayers commercial on TV but doesn't contact them, and a week later Andrew turns up to explain what she is.

So they've found, counted and told the slayers that they are and they find the slayers that continue to activate.

She also says on the same page that of the 1800 activated, only 500 have joined them, so if the next slayer had been in the 1200 girls who didn't want to join, she wouldn't be doing whatever it is she wanted to do.

At the same time, please tell me where it's stated the Potentials have Slayer dreams. I don't remember Buffy having them before activated (again, I haven't seen S7 in a while, so I could have easily missed it).

Well we didn't see Buffy before she activated? I actually can't find a source for this, I'm sure I remember it, but it may have been in one of the comics, Tales of the Slayers or Fray, does Harth mention growing up the the dreams?? I can find places that say it (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Headscratchers/BuffyverseSlayers & http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Potential_Slayer) but they don't list the exact refrence to it.
Give me time I'll find it/not find it. I love me a reference.

It's still wrong. When it's pretty darn clear there's no strategic value to defeating The First by activating the Potentials, dreams or not, it's still wrong to toy with 2000 girls like that. Yes, one of them would have become the next Slayer. ONE. Not all of them. Your whole argument seems to hinge on that.

I'd feel pretty confident to say that if they asked all 1800 girls if they wouldn't mind being activated, so that a small group of them can go to war and defeat a monster that will eventually kill them, they don't have to fight that war, they just have to agree to be activated, it also means that they can choose to be trained or you can go about your life, if they don't agree, there is a possibility that they'll get the power anyway and then they don't have a choice then they'll have to fight till they die. I'd be pretty certain everyone would agree, why wouldn't you?

Even with the dreams, it's not like their horrific dreams, they were only that way with Dana becasue she was tortured as a kid. for most if they weren't aware of their power they'd just be a nightmare, no worse then a regular persons.

And clearly from what we see on the show, some have zero notion about their potential powers or the supernatural. Look at Buffy when she's first activated. She was clueless about all of it, and there was a huge difference between her supposedly "enhanced reflexes" (which I don't even really recall at all) and her new Slayer powers. There's not a single indication that she had any idea whatsoever about the Slaying world prior to her activation. Why would that be so different for the rest of them worldwide?

When have you seen Buffy pre-activation?
We saw examples of potentials having powers in Potential, Who is it Amanda? They comes to Buffy when she's a councilor and says she had beat up a bully, then she kills a vampire in the school when Dawn encourages her. Her natural instincts and abilities take over.
Doesn't Kennedy mention their heightened reflexes? (It's been ages since I've seen Season 7)

Now, because of Buffy and Willow's incompetence, they all are, good bad and ugly. All the people Dana and Simonne murdered, tortured or destroyed? That's all on Buffy's head. Explain to me how you can see it otherwise.[/QUOTE]
The people Dana murdered are on the guy that kidnapped her and her doctor, being a slayer didn't make her crazy, it made her strong, and once she was active the doctor hid what was happening to her so he could write a book. She only got out becasue a nurse messed up her drugs.

Also how many people has Simone killed? She was a slayer that wanted to use guns to fight vampires, not guns on people. As things got worse with her she went rogue and other slayers joined her, but the worse they did to civilians was kick them out of a town, they aren't killing people.

Simone has now, just recently started killing Slayers but creating a Slayer/Zompire hybrid, but do we know how many people she's done that too?

 

[Robb Stark]

W&H amulet sped up the process, but I think the plan was for the Slayers to kill them all, or kill enough that the balance to evil wouldn't be possible. Since it's always been 1 slayer vs a world full of demons, The odds aren't too bad for like 22 slayers vs an army.

Also The Amulet was part of the plan, it wasn't like activating the slayers was the plan and the amulet happened to kick in. The plan was to fight first and battle them till the amulet kick in, there is no fighting that war with a bunch of potentials, they needed slayers to do that.

22 Slayers against thousands of Turok-Han? The vampires who, with just one, pushed Buffy to the absolute limit? I'll take the Turok-Han if we're betting.

Buffy makes zero indication of what the amulet is capable of. She's dimly aware it's powerful, but makes no reference to what it can do. If something based on that limited knowledge is the centerpiece of her plan, that says all you need to know right there.

Season 8, issue 1, Page 4 ( I think, that pic of Buffy jumping from the helicopter takes up 2 pages. She says "There used to be one slayer in all the world. Eighteen hundred now that we've counted."

They also find Slayers once they activate, The potential Soledad becomes activated on her 16th birthday, she see's the slayers commercial on TV but doesn't contact them, and a week later Andrew turns up to explain what she is.

Okay, point taken, but I still don't think "that we've counted" is good enough. It's so fundamentally wrong to me that you can just screw with people's biology without their consent, or even knowledge. That's wrong, especially since it wasn't necessary (I know we disagree on that point, but I really don't see any concrete, or even circumstantial, evidence that suggests activating the Slayers was in any way needed).

She also says on the same page that of the 1800 activated, only 500 have joined them, so if the next slayer had been in the 1200 girls who didn't want to join, she wouldn't be doing whatever it is she wanted to do.

Okay, I can at least see this point. But now you have 1300 superpowered girls wandering around who have no idea what to do with that power. The odds that every one of them are good people who will use their new abilities responsibly is hilariously remote. And just because "one of them might have been activated anyway" isn't justification for activating all of them. There's no logic in that.

Well we didn't see Buffy before she activated? I actually can't find a source for this, I'm sure I remember it, but it may have been in one of the comics, Tales of the Slayers or Fray, does Harth mention growing up the the dreams?? I can find places that say it (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Headscratchers/BuffyverseSlayers & http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Potential_Slayer) but they don't list the exact refrence to it.
Give me time I'll find it/not find it. I love me a reference.

I haven't read of the Tales of the Slayer stuff, so I'm not sure on that count. As for Buffy, we see her in "Becoming". Now, I'm not certain if she has already been activated at this point, or if it's right before. She displays zero knowledge of the supernatural when her first Watcher confronts her, so it's a relatively safe assumption to suggest she hasn't been activated. If that is the case (and granted, it is an "if"), she seems like a perfectly normal person. If she was having vampire dreams, there was no indication of it.

I'd feel pretty confident to say that if they asked all 1800 girls if they wouldn't mind being activated, so that a small group of them can go to war and defeat a monster that will eventually kill them, they don't have to fight that war, they just have to agree to be activated, it also means that they can choose to be trained or you can go about your life, if they don't agree, there is a possibility that they'll get the power anyway and then they don't have a choice then they'll have to fight till they die. I'd be pretty certain everyone would agree, why wouldn't you?

Well, for starters, because that would be a lie. Again, the activation spell did not save the world. Spike, Angel and, weirdly, W&H did. Since we don't know the mechanics or mythology of the amulet (thinking about it, that would be an interesting idea for a comic), there's no way of knowing how it was activated. Suggesting it was because of the battle raging around Spike is guessing at best. Personally, I would LOVE to see a bit of a retcon issue linking the amulet to the activation spell and Buffy. Buffy still wouldn't have known about it, but it would at least make sense then.

We saw examples of potentials having powers in Potential, Who is it Amanda? They comes to Buffy when she's a councilor and says she had beat up a bully, then she kills a vampire in the school when Dawn encourages her. Her natural instincts and abilities take over.
Doesn't Kennedy mention their heightened reflexes? (It's been ages since I've seen Season 7)

Dawn, Xander, Oz and Cordy all kill vampires. Are they Potentials? Hell, Willow kills one with a pencil. It's not like Potentials and Slayers have a monopoly on killing vampires, or are the only ones who can do it.

I'm not sure about Kennedy. You could be right there, but I honestly don't remember.

The people Dana murdered are on the guy that kidnapped her and her doctor, being a slayer didn't make her crazy, it made her strong, and once she was active the doctor hid what was happening to her so he could write a book. She only got out becasue a nurse messed up her drugs.

Dana going crazy is on that guy, absolutely. Arming Dana with superpowers? That's on Buffy. If I let a crazy murderer out of an asylum, and he rampages and kills people, how effective do you think my defense of "well it wasn't ME who drove him crazy" is going to be? That guy loaded the gun. Buffy put in it Dana's hand.

Also how many people has Simone killed? She was a slayer that wanted to use guns to fight vampires, not guns on people. As things got worse with her she went rogue and other slayers joined her, but the worse they did to civilians was kick them out of a town, they aren't killing people.

Simone has now, just recently started killing Slayers but creating a Slayer/Zompire hybrid, but do we know how many people she's done that too?

Simone is clearly evil. I may have been incorrect in lumping her in the same broad category as Dana. However, all the people whose lives she's ruined by destroying and evicting them from their homes? That's evil, and that never happens without Buffy.

 

[The Bronze]

OK I don't want to defend the plan in Chosen too much or claim it was any kind of strategic genius but I think it has some merit and deserves a little more credit than it's being given. Buffy certainly deserves a little less stick than she's getting as well.

So the first point I'd like to make is about the activation spell and where the responsibility lies. Buffy simply had the idea. She presented it to the group. By all accounts they unanimously backed it. Willow performed the spell. Willow changed the code. There was no gun to her head and in fact there was a potential by her side. If you feel the need to blame anyone for the results then Willow is your girl.

Onto the actual plan. Not the most fleshed out and well thought through thing in the world but spare a thought to what Buffy was working with. 3 fighters (Buffy, Spike & Faith), 1 unstable witch (Willow), Giles with any tricks he might have, 20 or so civilians and a magic amulet. Not exactly a lot to be going up against an army of uber vamps and The First is it?

Given those limitations then going in with an element of surprise, the higher ground and 15+ slayers makes some sense to me. Best case scenario they buy enough time for the amulet to kick in and do something useful (what happened), worst case scenario they thin the herd a little. Gives the rest of mankind a better chance if a group of slayers does some damage.

Back to the activation spell for a minute. Does nobody think that Buffy had a defeat in mind when she suggested it? I think it's entirely possible that Buffy believed humanity stood a better chance of surviving with 2000 slayers if her plan ended in defeat.

So I'm struggling to see how the plan is awful and I'm really struggling to see how Buffy can be treated so harshly in regards to the activation spell. They discussed it with a sample of the group who all agreed. It was the best they could do in the time frame. Why wouldn't they say yes to it? They're being hunted and killed like animals by The First, would you expect any of them to say I'd rather not be able to fight back?

Alternate plans:

1. Put the amulet on Spike and send him into the Hellmouth. Could work I suppose. No one has a clue what it might do or when it might get on with it. Most likely outcome Spike gets ripped apart and they're back to square 1.

2. Ask Angel to send in Wolfram & Hart. Can you imagine the conversation? Buffy: "Angel would you mind sending in the evil law firm you've been fighting against for 4 years to fight my battle". Angel: "Erm I've been in the job for 5 minutes and have no clue what I've gotten myself into but sure I'll give it a go". Maybe they swoop in and save the day, more likely they don't.

3. Ask Riley to send in the army. Assuming Buffy could get hold of Riley what makes anyone think he'd be able to convince his superiors to get anything done in a sensible time period? Who's to say they wouldn't come in and totally balls it up? They'd just as likely try to recruit or experiment with the Uber Vamps as actually fight them.

There probably was a better way but there was never any guarantee of a win here. Buffy was acting with the best of intentions and the plan had its merits.

 

[Robb Stark]

Onto the actual plan. Not the most fleshed out and well thought through thing in the world but spare a thought to what Buffy was working with. 3 fighters (Buffy, Spike & Faith), 1 unstable witch (Willow), Giles with any tricks he might have, 20 or so civilians and a magic amulet. Not exactly a lot to be going up against an army of uber vamps and The First is it?

This is my point though. She limits her own capacity of force, and for no good reason. Angel offers to help. He says that he'll do whatever Buffy requires of him, on her authority, unconditionally. And she says no. Why? Because she's worried about awkwardness between Angel and Spike. That's TERRIBLE. At the very least, she should have accepted his offer and brought the AI team north to Sunnydale. Willow can teleport. There's not a reason in the world NOT to have them there.

I'll get to W&H and the army below.

Back to the activation spell for a minute. Does nobody think that Buffy had a defeat in mind when she suggested it? I think it's entirely possible that Buffy believed humanity stood a better chance of surviving with 2000 slayers if her plan ended in defeat.

Okay, you know what? This I get. This I understand. Activating the world's Potential Slayers does give humanity a better shot at survival then not doing it at all. I hadn't considered it from that perspective before. I wish that had been articulated in the show, but I can certainly buy that. Thank you lol 😛.

2. Ask Angel to send in Wolfram & Hart. Can you imagine the conversation? Buffy: "Angel would you mind sending in the evil law firm you've been fighting against for 4 years to fight my battle". Angel: "Erm I've been in the job for 5 minutes and have no clue what I've gotten myself into but sure I'll give it a go". Maybe they swoop in and save the day, more likely they don't.

Buffy believes she's literally on the brink of world destruction. Limiting her offensive capability in any way, shape or form is unacceptable. Buffy trusts Angel. Sure, W&H are bad guys, absolutely, but so was Spike for the bulk of the series, and Buffy called on him repeatedly. When he offers to help her stop Angelus in S2, by this line of thinking she should have staked him then and there. She, correctly, did not and he was pivotal to helping her save the planet. Why not do that again? Yes, W&H is hardly trustworthy but if you're staring Armageddon in the face does that really matter?

3. Ask Riley to send in the army. Assuming Buffy could get hold of Riley what makes anyone think he'd be able to convince his superiors to get anything done in a sensible time period? Who's to say they wouldn't come in and totally balls it up? They'd just as likely try to recruit or experiment with the Uber Vamps as actually fight them.

Again, the fate of the world is at stake. Does the possiblity of the government experimenting on the Turok-Han really outweigh the considerable might they bring to the table? At that stage, it was irrelevant. And this is something I've never really understood when people defend Buffy for not reaching out to Riley and the American military. What makes anyone think they would respond? The potential fall of Southern California, that's what. That's a DAMN big deal. I don't see how anyone can just say that effectively "they wouldn't have done anything". They're the U.S. military! They exist to defend the United States!

At the same time, I don't think the Turok-Han were as menacing on the scale as everyone else thinks they were. Let's say Buffy falls and they get out. The Turok-Han are an unorganized rabble of unintelligent, pure ground based...we'll call them "troops" for simplicity's sake. On top of that, they can't do anything in the sun. Sunnydale has been completely evacuated by this point. All that is required is the U.S. Air Force. Seriously, that's it. If Buffy lets Riley know and he moves things along, there's no reason whatsoever to stop the Air Force from bombing the crap out of the Turok-Han as they stream up from the Hellmouth. Now, I know that would create a pretty boring series finale, but it's the truth.

 

[The Bronze]

@Robb Stark

Okay, you know what? This I get. This I understand. Activating the world's Potential Slayers does give humanity a better shot at survival then not doing it at all. I hadn't considered it from that perspective before. I wish that had been articulated in the show, but I can certainly buy that. Thank you lol .

You're welcome 🙂. I agree though a couple of lines of explanation would have been nice. This version makes sense to me. She risks her life so many times for everyone else, she'd want to give them the best chance possible after she dies.

I'm not sure you can draw a direct comparison with accepting Spike's help at various times and getting Wolfram & Hart on board. Spike is 1 vampire who she has a level of familiarity with, W&H are an all powerful evil that she has no idea about. Buffy works on gut instinct a lot of the time and a certain amount of calculated risk comes into it. I'm not saying that a plan involving W&H would never have worked but it's a massive gamble. Seems more like chucking fuel on the fire to me.

As for bringing just Team Angel on board I think that's a perfectly sensible plan. A few more fighters and various other skills. Could well have been useful in the Hellmouth. However I don't think it's unacceptable to ask Angel to work on a Plan B. Much like with the activation spell she doesn't want to leave the world hopeless if it all goes wrong.

And this is something I've never really understood when people defend Buffy for not reaching out to Riley and the American military. What makes anyone think they would respond? The potential fall of Southern California, that's what. That's a DAMN big deal. I don't see how anyone can just say that effectively "they wouldn't have done anything". They're the U.S. military! They exist to defend the United States!

I'd suggest that their lack of doing anything is a reasonable sign of their unlikelyhood to do anything. The whole of Sunnydale evacuated. Sunnydale isn't a mystery to the government. We've seen all sorts of authority figures from The Initiative all the way down to Snyder knowing exactly what the town is all about. Where's the guy in a suit asking questions when the whole town scarpers? If they're to incompetent to notice a town on a Hellmouth heading for the hills including all of their officials, police etc. what makes you think a phone call from Buffy would have made all the difference? And this is obviously not in the show but who's to say Buffy didn't have a go at getting in contact and they ignored her?

At the same time, I don't think the Turok-Han were as menacing on the scale as everyone else thinks they were. Let's say Buffy falls and they get out. The Turok-Han are an unorganized rabble of unintelligent, pure ground based...we'll call them "troops" for simplicity's sake. On top of that, they can't do anything in the sun. Sunnydale has been completely evacuated by this point. All that is required is the U.S. Air Force. Seriously, that's it. If Buffy lets Riley know and he moves things along, there's no reason whatsoever to stop the Air Force from bombing the crap out of the Turok-Han as they stream up from the Hellmouth. Now, I know that would create a pretty boring series finale, but it's the truth.

All of this might be right on the money. There could have been more to it though. We'll never really know. I'm sure The First must have had at least some idea of what to do once the Uber Vamps are released. Perhaps there was more stuff lurking behind them? Maybe The First's powers would have increased to be more useful after an initial night time massacre? The airstrike might have worked wonders but I wouldn't be placing to much faith in the competence of the authorities.