Discussion of 3.04 "Beauty and the Beasts" - Aired 10/20/1998 (WB-US)

[thrasherpix]

During the Buffering the Vampire Slayer podcast they were talking about this episode today and they brought up an interesting issue which to be honest I had never really considered and that is that Angel essentially kills a human here when he kills Pete.

How do you all feel about Angel killing Pete? Is it ok because Pete had somehow altered himself past a human form and was killing people? I honestly never considered Pete just a run of the mill evil human. I thought of him as a monster so I never really put much stock into thinking about his death or the moral ramifications of it. Especially since the show seemed totally fine with it. But technically speaking Pete was a human.

Are any of you critical of Angel killing Pete here? Would Buffy have killed him if Angel had not shown up? If Buffy would have killed Pete would we be ok with this?

I don't see Pete as anymore human than Buffy, who had demonic/occult essence grafted onto her as a Slayer. I presume the Hellmouth inspired Pete to come up with his formula (and even possible his formula wouldn't work if it wasn't close enough to a Hellmouth or other mystical site) but once he transforms, especially when he could do it without the formula helping, then he has effectively transformed himself into something that belongs in Buffy's territory rather than the human courts. Furthermore, he was less sympathetic than werewolves who don't want to transform (notable exceptions aside).

That aside...even if Pete was human (but still a danger to Buffy as he was) I see a difference between self-defense and assault (much like I see a difference between surgery and grievous mutilation). Deadly force is acceptable to save the life of one's self or someone else from similar force (including felony assaults like with a deadly weapon, forcible rape, etc). When Buffy was killing the Knights of Byzantium, she was acting in such self-defense which is why I don't see it as murder or manslaughter (in contrast, had Ted been human rather than a robot then Buffy would've been guilty of manslaughter at the very least). That's what Angel did, and given his state of mind I'm inclined to give him even more of a pass. So no, I'm not critical of Angel here.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Deadly force is acceptable to save the life of one's self or someone else from similar force (including felony assaults like with a deadly weapon, forcible rape, etc).

I agree with you. And I had not considered the legal aspect of it as I tend to separate the show from anything that is remotely mundane (real world). But your law is on point (although it varies from state to state and I'm not sure what the law is in California but I assume its the majority rule which you have cited).

And I think that you are certainly right in that Pete made the conscious decision to transform himself into am monster whereas for example Oz makes no conscious decision to turn into a werewolf or where as Angel did not make a conscious decision to lose his soul and release his demon (unaware of the curse and all that).

And Pete likely would not have been able to be contained/controlled by police. Its an interesting dilemma though that is touched upon again later in the show with Faith. She is human with super powers. Police are probably not equipped to handle her but does that mean Buffy needs to go vigilante on her?

The podcast I was listening to was comparing Angel's actions to those of Batman's for example who ties up the bad guys for the police to find. But if he had done this with Pete or if Buffy had done this with Faith, the police would not have stood a chance in containing them. Therefore these situations fall within Buffy and Angel's jurisdictions.

 

[Mylie]

I caught up on the podcast and it really reminded me why I hate this episode.

I don't understand what the writers were trying to do and the result ends up being very troubling. How they made Buffy act and the episode's resolution goes beyond my comprehension. If you're not going to do this topic justice, then don't touch it.

I'm actually surprised Kristin and Jenny (from the podcast) are such fans of Marti Noxon when she wrote this...

 

[Ghost Boy]

Nice to have Angel back!

Not feeling any chemistry with the Buffy and Scott Hope combination. There's just nothing interesting about him.

 

[thrasherpix]

I'm glad to get past this episode. Whenever I rewatch this season, Dead Man's Party and Beauty & the Beast are the ones I don't really want to see again, even if there are good parts in them, and once past them then I finally look forward to the full rewatch.

I personally don't see a parallel between Debbie & Pete with Buffy & Angelus. Buffy did not submit to Angelus and fought him, she didn't become his accomplice or submit to his abuses. I say that because of earlier posts in this thread. I do see throwing in Angel as a red herring, however, which the show loves to use.

Though now I'm wondering...what if Debbie survived and joined the Scoobies? Assuming decent writing (which is probably assuming too much), I'd LOVE to hear Debbie's input on the Spuffy in both season 6 and 7. (And some of the things Buffy said to Debbie were things that should've been said to Buffy in season 7.)

 

[nightshade]

I enjoyed this more than I remembered, but mostly because of Oz, you could take out the Debbie and Pete storyline and just have the Oz and Angel one (you would have to rework it so something else killed someone) and I would have enjoyed it even more. I just didn't think that the domestic violence plot and the Jekyll/Hyde one was needed as well.

 

[Mr Trick]

I caught up on the podcast and it really reminded me why I hate this episode.

I don't understand what the writers were trying to do and the result ends up being very troubling. How they made Buffy act and the episode's resolution goes beyond my comprehension. If you're not going to do this topic justice, then don't touch it.

I'm actually surprised Kristin and Jenny (from the podcast) are such fans of Marti Noxon when she wrote this...

I agree with you. I'm thinking this was early on in Noxon's career when she was still maturing. Think its also a victim of that early season MOTW style episode before the main arc of the season really kicked it.

I found this one a bit of a slog. Its also quite boring at times. Besides how poorly handled the domestic abuse plot is I found Pete and Debbie bland. There's too much going on plotwise. Its a shame Buffy's councillor was only a one shot character too.

 

[FaithLehane16]

No one ever, ever deserves that type of relationship, and only someone truly twisted or truly ignorant would think otherwise. However, it does raise a question about Debbie (and, I suppose by the incredible lack of subtly in the episode, abusive relationships in general). At what point should we, as an audience, stop feeling sympathetic towards her? This is a blunt metaphor, but I think it fits (and please, feel free to point me otherwise if it doesn't). I equate it to being around an aggressive dog. The first time the dog bites, you didn't know, you couldn't have known, and it isn't on you. But every ensuing time you touch the dog and it bites you? You knew. You just knew. I know Debbie is young, dumb and in love, but shouldn't she, at some point in time, have the degree of intelligence to realize what's happening? It isn't ambiguous. He's beating the hell out of her. I mean, Rhianna gets her face turned to mush by Chris Brown, goes back to him and then tells the world that we "don't understand so stop hatin'' (I'm paraphrasing).

This is what gets me on the episode. This is my exact thoughts. I thought that Debbie would be bright enough to walk away from Pete. It's like going to some crappy store after you got an unfulfilling result.

The only things I liked about this episode is that Angel saves Buffy, Oz gets the opportunity to beat up Pete a bit, and Giles's reaction to getting tranquilized.

I can see where people are coming from on Angel's recovery.

 

[Puppet]

This is what gets me on the episode. This is my exact thoughts. I thought that Debbie would be bright enough to walk away from Pete. It's like going to some crappy store after you got an unfulfilling result.

But that's how abuse works. That's why there isn't a single person out there that can honestly claim that they will 'never end up in a relationship like that', because you just can't know.

I had a best friend who was so strong, inside and out. Two exes had hit her, they did it just the once and she was gone. I was sure she'd never end up in an abusive relationship...until she did. She gave this guy over 2 years until he put her in the hospital with a broken jaw and busted ribs and finally went to prison. Even when he got out, she still had to fight the urge to take him back and she's one of the strongest people I've ever known.

 

[thrasherpix]

My impression is that the Debbies are in a relatively peaceful relationship for years before it goes bad, typically after marriage when the Beast emerges (though women can change for the worse as well, finally releasing their own Beast), or at least when he can separate her enough from friends and family so that she can't easily leave him (and plenty actually move to another city, taking her with him, and that's when the Beast emerges).

Others are just so used to abuse from home that it feels familiar from the start. And, strangely, a few seem to seek it out (I'm very serious about it, always tripped me out).

And in all my life, I never ended up in a relationship like that. While I did get hit a couple of times, I gave as good as I got (my mom was the same way, and sometimes she was the one to strike first) and it never formed a pattern. In other cases I broke it off instantly, or at least never more than one chance. For that reason I don't think I ever will.

And yet I was terrified when I saw a mentally strong woman surrender to an abuser (who was neither hot nor wealthy on top of that, and he moved in under HER roof!) who isolated and dominated her, and she even got rid of her beloved dog for him. I talked to her trying to understand only to find her a pod person (like a cross between Joyce with Ted and Debbie with Pete). I actually made up a paper giving permission to my 2 best friends to kidnap and deprogram (using magic if all else failed) should I ever do what she did because that is horrifying to me, primarily on how inexplicable it is (though she grew up in an insanely abusive home as a child, one that makes my childhood look easy). She was like a surrogate mother to me (she took me in when I was a runaway, which she knew was illegal for her to do), and if it can happen to her, then I have to admit it can happen to me.

 

[katmobile]

Angel seems to recover pretty quickly after spending centuries in hell. For the sake of the show, I understand why. David Boreanaz does depict Angel as a "wild animal" pretty well though. This is kind of the like the Buffy version of the Hulk episode. Crazy abusive boyfriend starts to transform when he gets angry. I didn't really like that aspect of the story but they had to pin the mysterious deaths on somebody.

I think the Still Pretty review is accurate here. Keep the plot but either cut Buffy victim shaming or have Willow or Giles call her out on it and have her explain its really about her own guilt.

 

[telperion66]

Hi all. I've just noticed on the rewatch I'm currently doing that bad-guy Pete got bit by Oz during their fight scene in this episode.

Am I correct in assuming that he would therefore have turned into a werewolf because of this?

Might have made for an interesting Oz-centric storyline somewhere down the line had he survived this episode...

Ponder, consider...

 

[katmobile]

I like that throughout the episode the audience is led to believe that the killer could be either Oz or Angel. Although I do think that as a werewolf Oz would never break out of his cage and then come back in, still in wolf form, it doesnt make much sence.

I love the shrink in this episode, I was so upset when he was killed, I think he really helped Buffy. I also love that Angel's back, the scene were he protects Buffy when she's fighting and then recognises her is so sweet. I do agree that he came back to his sanity a bit too quickly though.

I'm afraid it's one of the few aspects of the show I have to fan wangle a little that Angel managed to endure a century of torment and not go irredeamably insane it's not shade on Angel I'd have the same issue with any character.

 

[one eyed chicklet]

I'm afraid it's one of the few aspects of the show I have to fan wangle a little that Angel managed to endure a century of torment and not go irredeamably insane it's not shade on Angel I'd have the same issue with any character.

Yeah I must admit he didn't really seem to be insane very long or have any long lasting effects from it.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Debbie is the worst. I mean, why is Scott friends with these people? I mean, to buy beer, but other than that? But, core of the matter; any changling who possesses a beserk state and fails to secure themselves is subject to termination. Also, Pete was bitten by a werewolf. I'm sure the council would be happy to cover that up.

 

[Btvs fan]

Ok Re-watched this and it's not good. The plot makes no sense. The gang are worried Oz got out, which only works because Xander decided to go straight to sleep because the plot needed him too, ( though why would Wolf Oz go back to his cage again ?) It focuses on Scott's friends Pete and Debbie but given Scott is bland and boring I don't care about him or his friends.
Angel is also back and despite being mindless is apparently sane enough to put on a pair of Jeans but no shirt. He also somehow finds Buffy immediately to rescue her and kill Pete right when the plot needs him too !
Also having David Boreanaz make growling noises rather than the usual Vamp noise is unintentionally hilarious. Also hilarious is Oz new Wolf costume which is even worse that the Phases costume and makes him look like a teddy bear. Also Pete's morph fits into the above category too. I'm guessing I was meant to be horrified but instead I laughed at the actor making funny faces as he "changes"

So what did I like. Well the line delivery by Seth Green "Times up rules change" and Anthony Head "Oh right bloody priceless" is perfect. We also got a bit more insight into Faith "all men are beasts Buffy" which was interesting. The best character/moment was Buffys Psychologist. He was great in the one scene he was in. Shame they killed him off straight away, I would love to have seen more of him.

So overall 4/10 Some good moments and performances but it wasn't a good episode. I even rate it lower than DMP because that at least furthered the Main plot in a more interesting way.

 

[katmobile]

Angel seems to recover pretty quickly after spending centuries in hell. For the sake of the show, I understand why. David Boreanaz does depict Angel as a "wild animal" pretty well though. This is kind of the like the Buffy version of the Hulk episode. Crazy abusive boyfriend starts to transform when he gets angry. I didn't really like that aspect of the story but they had to pin the mysterious deaths on somebody.

I don't think he did spend a century in hell as he'd be utterly insane if he did. No shade on him I think anyone who wasn't utterly evil would be. In hell dimensions time moves differently but not all to the save extent across all ones. Ricky ages a lifetime in in Anne's hell dimension in around a couple of days. Connor ages around nineteen years in Qar'toth in the space of around a week or two on earth. Angel probably lost track of time after a while.

 

[FaithLehane16]

Oz was so badass in this episode. It was amazing.

 

[katmobile]

I quite like this episode, and it was good how they tried to throw people off into thinking Oz and then Angel was responsible, but it seemed too obvious to me with how prominently Debbie and Pete were being shown.

Also seems silly that Buffy was hard on Debbie about Pete killing people when Angelus had been doing the same thing, though you could say that she did this just to highlight how she'd learnt her lesson.

She's projecting Buffy does that a lot but you're right it needs to be more obvious.

 

[thrasherpix]

Continuing my on and off pattern of now of watching eps I normally skip, I watched this one again. I noticed the counselor said he wasn't Buffy's friend, and I know that comes up later in the season at least once, and it feels like more than once (the "we're not friends" line). He also says one can't stay lost or you become love's dog, which reminded me of Spike later declaring himself love's bitch.

I just wonder how much of that was deliberate and what the overall season's message was, if any (at least in regard to the counselor).