Discussion of 5.07 "Lineage" - Airdate 11/12/03

Wes would still remember dicing Lilah up. That had nothing to do with Conner. Had to do with Angelus.

This episode was brilliant. I was very very happy with it. So many elements went into this one, that it brought it up to a supreme full episode. Nothing missing. I loved how Spike ran to Gunn's aid. Shows that he's actually caring about the team, more than he leads everyone to believe. I saw lots of foreshadowing of Spike slowly being able to touch things a lot easier. Not to mention the fight scene shown in the preview for next week's episode. Angel and Spike fighting! Holy hell it looks amazing.

So there was also some dialogue between Spike and Eve that we were all expecting, I'm guessing. We even had a conversation here about who the amulet was intended for. Looks like Spike is thinking about it as well. Apparantly he will be searching for the answers. I enjoyed the dialogue between everyone in this episode. Very good interactions. And now I hope all of you are happy. There was a full episode of Wesley. So, you're all happy right?....everyone has been in the limelight. Definitely had some hard feelings when freakin' Knox interrupted Wes and Fred. Let them be! And then he had to walk away with his arm around her...

Next weeks is going to kick arse. I don't know how...but I had some feeling that next weeks would be when we saw Dru. Here we go!
 
WOW!!! I loved this episode!

Like many, my jaw hung open the entire time Wesley's father lay dead on the floor. I just couldn't believe it, but I was also proud. The man had been willing to kill Fred, and was obviously not a decent person. It showed Wesley's strength.

Spike was hilarious and his caring for the other AI members showed. Angel had a great line ("I didn't really think that one through...") as did Wes ("If your here to tell me how you killed YOUR parents...)

Second mention of Connor in two weeks 😀

Wes/Fred-I beat the crap out of my sofa bed when Knox walked in

My heart bled for Wes this whole episode. Having grown up with a parent who was like that, it killed me everytime Wes seemed to revert to Buffy Season 3 Wes around him 🙁

And then the preview for next week was great! All in all, one of the tightest packages they've handed us this year! LOVED IT!
 
I have to admit that I have mixed feelings about "Lineage". Alexis Denisof was excellent, as usual. But the establishment of Wes' relationships with Angel and Fred came off as heavy-handed (and oh God, will his infatuation with Fred ever end?), but I did enjoy his interaction with his dad (or fake dad), played by Roy Doctrice. After seeing what Wyndham-Price Senior was really like, I can understand why Wes has "Daddy issues". On the whole, the whole cyborg plotline seemed . . . unreal. Especially for a Horror/Fantasy show. What was up with that anyway?

Other observations:

-Eve certainly bared her claws in this episode. However, Sarah Thompson's scene with James Marsters was a lot better than the one with David Boreanaz.

-At first, I thought that the episode's writer was unexperienced in writing Spike's character, because he was really off in this episode (aside from rescuing Gunn and the little talk with Eve in the elevator). Imagine my surprise when I discovered that BtVS veteran, Drew Goddard, wrote this episode. Dude, what happened?

-Wes remembers his affair with Lilah? How could that be? If doesn't remember Connor, how could he have remember the Wes/Lilah romance?
 
I really like this episode, better than last week's. Drew Goddard worked his magic! Loved all the references to Intervention, Calvary, Salvage, LMPTM. It was great that Wesley remembers Lilah. I was so glad when Wesley killed his dad, but it turns out he was a robot. Nice Spike/Eve scene. But how did the SP know that the amulet would be passed onto Spike unless they knew about Spuffy ('cuz Buffy gave it to Spike 'cuz he's her champion)? They barely knew about Bangel. Next week looks awesome!
 
Originally posted by LadyLavinia
-At first, I thought that the episode's writer was unexperienced in writing Spike's character, because he was really off in this episode (aside from rescuing Gunn and the little talk with Eve in the elevator). Imagine my surprise when I discovered that BtVS veteran, Drew Goddard, wrote this episode. Dude, what happened?
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You've got to know this statement will not go unchallenged, right? Explain yourself.

You sound like you're expecting Spike to behave the way he did in Buffy Season 2.

Did you hear the news? He has a soul now. He saved the world. He's no longer motivated souly by selfish intentions. He sacrificed himself to save Fred. In Just Rewards he expressed to Angel a need to become a contributing warrior in the fight against evil.

He's not the same guy you remember from Buffy 2. His character has evolved.

Have you ever seen an episode from Buffy called Lies My Parents Told Me? The character of Spike is redefined in that episode, and his evolution into it's present form begins. Drew Goddard wrote that episode, and you want to say what? That you understand the character of Spike in his present form better than Drew does?
 
"You've got to know this statement will not go unchallenged, right? Explain yourself.

You sound like you're expecting Spike to behave the way he did in Buffy Season 2."


Excuse me, but from where do you get this idea? What makes you think I want Spike of BtVS Season 2 back? You're making one hell of a big assumption.

Yes, I know that Spike got his soul back. Yes, I've seen LMPTM and all of the other episodes that featured his character development. I was talking about Spike of AtS Season 5. Unlike the other episodes of this season, Spike's dialogue and character in "Lineage" (and in "Lineage" only) seemed off. Except for the scene in which he confronted Eve in the elevator, and when he rescued Gunn.


One last thing - I'm surprised that no one finds it odd that Wesley remembers his affair with Lilah. If it weren't for Connor's existence, Wes would have never inadvertently handed Connor over to Justine and Holtz, due to the "Father Will Kill the Son" prophecy. He would have never been estranged from the AI Gang, and would have never drifted into an affair with Lilah.
 
It seems that the writers will be resolving the mind-wipe issue over a series of eps. They know what they're doing; what certain people remember of the last few years, and why. I don't think they're being careless when it comes to Wes remembering Lilah, and the whole situation (IMO) will be worked out. Just have a little faith instead of wanting the whole thing to be explained in one sitting. As for the ep, I am one giddy Wesley fan! The writing was brilliant, combining bumbling Wes flawlessly with the torture-happy Wes of last season. AD was amazing. I have no mixed feelings about this ep. Everything tied together beautifully. I haven't been this excited about one ep for a long time.
 
I was mad. I really was.
Well, I loved the episode it really showed a lot of Wesley and hes so cool.
I was mad that Wes and Fred were getting really close at the end there then that stupid guy(forgot his name) came in and was like "oh yeah, your arm..." blah. Its so frusterating!!!!!
Spike was soooo hilarious. I was laughing 3/4ths of the time. And: "You expect me to touch that?" "Well, I don't really like to hug" or something like that i was cracking up! And Lorne with the hot pink suit....lmao!
"I killed my mum. Well, actually I killed her then she wanted to shag me then I..." "Enough!" There was another quote of Spike that almost had me peeing in my pants but i forgot it 🙁 Oooooh heh heh.

Gotta love Spike.
 
man this is the angel we used to know! that was the best episode so far and im sure next weeks will top that! i like how spike did not care about eve in the elevator! lol that was cool and like i said before i hate knox! well anyway how was fred hurt? i know she sid something about the gtappling hook but i wish that they showed it so we could see what happened! i guess fred knows wes likes her even though she kinda knew before
 
Originally posted by Zaaya
I was mad. I really was.
I was mad that Wes and Fred were getting really close at the end there then that stupid guy(forgot his name) came in and was like "oh yeah, your arm..." blah. Its so frusterating!!!!!
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Quite frankly, I was relieved. I'm getting tired of Wes' longing for Fred and I wish that ME would simply allow him to get over her and move on.
 
I liked this episode, my feelings for Wes/Fred are on the warm and fuzzy side, but, at the risk of making a lot of enemies, I gotta say, WES, YOU CHICKEN!!! Seriously, he practically sent her away. The conversation went something like this:

Wes: It was you! He was going to hurt you!!

Fred: Wesley....I...

(Knox enters)

Knox: I was....going to take you home?

Fred: Well, Wes and I...

Wes: No. Go. You should go.


Way to fight for what you want, Wes. Seriously, he should have said, "Fred, I can take you home if you'd like."

So, yeah, I think they're cute, but he seriously doesn't deserve her right now. He's never even told her how he feels...he's not given her any type of a chance to declare her feelings one way or another.

Ba-BOK!
 
This episdoe was great!!!

We haven't seen much of Wesley lately,it was nice to have him back.

I loved the elevator scene. I knew that the amulet was never meant for Angel. Somebody at W&H wants Spike for something, which is why they gave the amulet to Angel, probably knowing that Angel would give it to Buffy and Buffy would then turn around and give it to Spike. Something very fishy is going on here, and I am very curious for it to be resolved.

Poor Wesley ,though. First having to deal with his 'father', and then fricking delivering some eight bullets into the guy. I though it was nice though at the end where he called his home to talk to his father.

And darn you, Knox. Just go away, okay? I was really mad when he showed up, because I was like, "FINALLY!" we are going to get some action between Wes and Fred, and stupidhead shows up to ruin everything.

I love all the references to Connor. And the mindwipe. It's like we all have a dirty secret that nobody knows (well, except for Angel) And I think Wes and Lilah's relationship didn't really have to do with Connor. Because she was still there talking to them after the mindwip in the W&H lobby, when Angel asked her to take him to see Connor. So, I don't know.
(but I think if they remember Cordelia and Jasmine, then they remember Lilah... it's just they don't remember Connor. Oh, who knows?)
 
Originally posted by LadyLavinia
-Wes remembers his affair with Lilah? How could that be? If doesn't remember Connor, how could he have remember the Wes/Lilah romance?
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That's exactly it. He doesn't remember Conner. He remembers Lilah. That's all you have to think about. Don't delve too deeply into the situation. If asked how he got together with Lilah, he may not be able to remember that. But he doesn't remember Conner. That's all. Hopefully they'll talk a little more about it, and make it a little more understandable to us.
 
About the episode in general: As many others have said, easily the best of the season so far.
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Something to highlight: As he said, Wesley really was sure he was killing his real father. He was ready to merely be shot by his father until the moment his father pointed a gun at Fred. Then he shot his dad. A lot. That takes balls, man.
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Yeah, Spike had some great lines. It was cool.
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About Wesley remembering Lilah:
The apparent contradiction of Wesley remembering Lilah while not remembering Conner does not need to be explained. Of course the writers may choose to explain it at a later date, and if they do, that's fine too. But there's no need for it to be explained. And that's because
1) It's magic. Magic doesn't make sense anyway, and
2) Memory is not a chronological tape-recording. We remember events that matter to us. Wesley coud remember the event of chopping Lilah's head off and having had an affair with her and not remember (completely) how he got into that situation. Unless someone explicitly points out the contradiction to him, he will not notice it. If the forget effect is powerful enough he may also forget that the contradiction was pointed out immediately afterwords as well. Remember the "Ben is Glory" conversation that Spike kept having with the Scoobies towards the end of BtVS season five.
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About Fred and Wes:
Yeah it'd be great to see them together. It's clear that almost everyone on the list thinks they'd make a perfect couple including me. That's why I'm absolutely positive it won't happen for a long time if ever. The writers would prefer to wring all the tension they possibly can out of it first.
 
I knew this ep was one of the best so far this season when it took an hour for most of it to fade from my mind instead of the usual 5 minutes that all other eps (except the premiere) have had this year. It was a decent episode, but still nowhere near the insanely high standards set by previous years. There was some really funny stuff (Percy, Lorne and Judi Dench) and some great dramatic scenes (most of the stuff with Wes and his father) and it managed to feel a lot more like Old!Angel. But the Wes Loves Fred Thread is just BEYOND ancient. Get over her or do something about it! Having said that, i did feel deeply sorry for him when he let her go.

But the ending. Ugh, that ending. Why? Why, after a finely-crafted, solid, emotional, engaging, intriguing episode did they have to introduce a totally crappy ending? I hated that his father was just a robot. It felt like a total cop-out fake-out. When Wesley suddenly shot his father, and continued to blast away, I gasped, shocked and stunned. That was a true Angel moment. But then most of the achievement is stripped away by an unecessary plot twist, which would have been far more affecting if it really had been Wesley's father. Although, in effect and in Wesley's mind, he really did kill his father, that ending, to me, still felt like a big cheat. However, I did like the ending. Instead of a cathartic, cheesy make-up lovefest most shows would have, Wesley still gets ripped to shreds by his unchanged jackass dad.

So all in all, Drew Goddard did well with his first Angel effort. It wasn't exactly Selfless-standard, but it definitely shows that he has the potential to write some classic instalments in the future.
 
Originally posted by Josh
But the Wes Loves Fred Thread is just BEYOND ancient. Get over her or do something about it!
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Oh yeah, I forgot to mention... I'm pretty sure there's three reasons why Wesley doesn't do something about it. The first is, he has one of those screwed up feel-sorry-for-myself guilt trip deals like Louis (Interview With the Vampire). The second is, he still sometimes lacks self-confidence in himself thanks to his upbringing (his dad can be so cruel).

But the third, and most important, is that I think he's afraid Fred will just sympatheticaly (read: patheticaly) reject him. And I think he's right. First he'll need to save her life a couple or three times. Then maybe he'll have a chance. That is assuming Knox and/or Spike don't beat him to the punch... which they probably will...
 
Originally posted by WyrdDemonHunter
First he'll need to save her life a couple or three times. Then maybe he'll have a chance.
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Sorry, dude. Not sure I'm following the logic there. You're expecting Fred to be like, "Hey you saved my life so now I have to get naked and show my appreciation."?
 
Originally posted by LazyDolphin
Sorry, dude. Not sure I'm following the logic there. You're expecting Fred to be like, "Hey you saved my life so now I have to get naked and show my appreciation."?
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Yeah, why not? 🙂 There's not really any reason why it would necessarily work, but then there's also not any reason why it necessarily wouldn't. I think the reason I was thinking about the "you saved my life" deal was the way Fred was talking to Spike in some past episode. She said, "You saved my life." and she said it so warmly I thought she was about to kiss him or something. 🙂

Another scenerio that might give Wes a chance is the "trapped in the elevator" one. Wes and Fred would have lots of time to talk and talk, etc.
 
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