Discussion of 5.08 "Destiny" - Airdate 11/19/03
- Thread starter Buffy Summers
- Start date
Oh yeah, that's right. He must be very good to be fooling W&H. I wonder what he is...sorcerer...warlock? When they fist showed him, I knew who he was, but it took my brain a minute to spit out his name. It has been a while!
The WB was spectacular tonight.
The WB was spectacular tonight.
Smackmydolphin
Grrrr.....argh....
that was a great ep......spike....was very happy to be solid again....nice....wow and all that GREAT fighting between angel and spike to find out....it didnt need to happen......ok so right at the end....we're all waiting for eve....to finish....and see who she is actually talkin to....AND did anyone actually expect it to be LINDSEY!?!!? cant wait for the next new ep!
Oh my.. Lindsey?
I liked this ep... a lot!
Man can they cram a lot into one hour.. First off I love the background on Angel, Dru, and Spike (I always love flashbacks) Wonderful to see Dru again, as nasty as she is, lol. Wes taking some time off over his Dad thing, was an interesting side note. The references to the prophecy again teasing us with what's to come, the tension between Angel and Spike explored by overlaying the Drusilla story, and more of the toss backs to Buffy that I love... I was impressed. And then the fight, yay! I loved the fight (now Angel can brood over losing more than one thing to Spike) Spike made sure he got a little taste of everything his first day back in physical world (hehehe even Harm, although she did taste back, lmao). They are making it seem that Spike will be the one to fulfill the prophecy, but that leaves me a little torn. I had always hoped that Angel would be human again and end up with Buffy. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if in the end nether of them get it (or Spike gets it and dies right away, or Angel get's it and dies right away, I see that as an end for Angel if it gets canceled), seeing as how Buffy and Angel are known for the never a happily ever after ending. And of all the Big bads for the season, I never expected Lindsey, Call me sir shocked a lot! Eve was bad news, we all knew it, lol so no surprise there, but the rest was classic. The cup being fake, I wasn't to surprised about that, for some reason I didn't see spike getting corporeal and drinking from the cup of torment in the same ep. I really wish I could watch this ep again. There was just so much going on. I know I am leaving things out, but this one was great, I have to say this was my Favorite episode so far.
I liked this ep... a lot!
Man can they cram a lot into one hour.. First off I love the background on Angel, Dru, and Spike (I always love flashbacks) Wonderful to see Dru again, as nasty as she is, lol. Wes taking some time off over his Dad thing, was an interesting side note. The references to the prophecy again teasing us with what's to come, the tension between Angel and Spike explored by overlaying the Drusilla story, and more of the toss backs to Buffy that I love... I was impressed. And then the fight, yay! I loved the fight (now Angel can brood over losing more than one thing to Spike) Spike made sure he got a little taste of everything his first day back in physical world (hehehe even Harm, although she did taste back, lmao). They are making it seem that Spike will be the one to fulfill the prophecy, but that leaves me a little torn. I had always hoped that Angel would be human again and end up with Buffy. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if in the end nether of them get it (or Spike gets it and dies right away, or Angel get's it and dies right away, I see that as an end for Angel if it gets canceled), seeing as how Buffy and Angel are known for the never a happily ever after ending. And of all the Big bads for the season, I never expected Lindsey, Call me sir shocked a lot! Eve was bad news, we all knew it, lol so no surprise there, but the rest was classic. The cup being fake, I wasn't to surprised about that, for some reason I didn't see spike getting corporeal and drinking from the cup of torment in the same ep. I really wish I could watch this ep again. There was just so much going on. I know I am leaving things out, but this one was great, I have to say this was my Favorite episode so far.
Stake'em & Smile
Stake's with Attitude
Purely awesome episode. These kind of episodes remind me why I love the Buffy verse. I've always wanted to see that great showdown between Angel and Spike, and we finally got it. All the history with Drusilla, the fight scenes, the dialect were all more than I expected and on top of that one of my favorite character's returns; Lindsey.
I liked the ep over all--Lindsey? Way shocked and loved the detail of all the tatoos over him--like he'd seen some milage in the years inbetween.
But.
I gotta ask. Does anybody else think the writers are seriously trying to emtotinaly disenagage us from Spike? They have really gone out of their way to--after the beautiful humility of his sacrifice of season 7 to portray a man whose learned almost next to nothing from his experiance. It's like he's lost his ability to empahsize.
Now if they are trying to make a point that all that loss he went through has hardened his heart I could accept that--but they really should script it and not just drop Spike into the mix a jerk when he overcame all that in 7. Remember how kind he was to the monk at the mission? Not just Buffy--but he was kind to other people as well...and seeing how he used Harmony like she was some kind of toilet or trash can absolutley disgusted me.
NOT funny. NOT Romantic NOT sexy. And the writers would have to be non compos mentis to not know what they are doing.
So.
Do they want us to dislike Spike? Seriously. JM said in an interview somewhere how Joss likes to dump a pie (metaphor) on favorite characters. Are they tryng to wittle down our love for him? Cuz I was his biggest fan in 7--and to be honest I wince a little now when he comes into frame. Like--who is he gonna abuse now? Verbal or physical or emotional it's still abuse. And what he did to Harmony was a form of emotional rape. It doesn't matter if she agreed to go--he is still responsible for his intentions.
I gotta say I'm a big Spike fan and they had me starting to root for Angel. Are the the writers TRYING to break our love for Spike? Cuz it's seriously working.
Anybody else?
thanks for the chat.
But.
I gotta ask. Does anybody else think the writers are seriously trying to emtotinaly disenagage us from Spike? They have really gone out of their way to--after the beautiful humility of his sacrifice of season 7 to portray a man whose learned almost next to nothing from his experiance. It's like he's lost his ability to empahsize.
Now if they are trying to make a point that all that loss he went through has hardened his heart I could accept that--but they really should script it and not just drop Spike into the mix a jerk when he overcame all that in 7. Remember how kind he was to the monk at the mission? Not just Buffy--but he was kind to other people as well...and seeing how he used Harmony like she was some kind of toilet or trash can absolutley disgusted me.
NOT funny. NOT Romantic NOT sexy. And the writers would have to be non compos mentis to not know what they are doing.
So.
Do they want us to dislike Spike? Seriously. JM said in an interview somewhere how Joss likes to dump a pie (metaphor) on favorite characters. Are they tryng to wittle down our love for him? Cuz I was his biggest fan in 7--and to be honest I wince a little now when he comes into frame. Like--who is he gonna abuse now? Verbal or physical or emotional it's still abuse. And what he did to Harmony was a form of emotional rape. It doesn't matter if she agreed to go--he is still responsible for his intentions.
I gotta say I'm a big Spike fan and they had me starting to root for Angel. Are the the writers TRYING to break our love for Spike? Cuz it's seriously working.
Anybody else?
thanks for the chat.
Andros
Being a Xander is no fun
So I've been thinking about this Lindsey thing, wondering what the hell is going on. One possibility, I guess, is that his evil hand has taken complete control. There's also the exchange between Lindsey and Angel in 2x18, Dead End, where Lindsey was last on the show.
Angel: So where are you going Lindsey? Back to your roots?
Lindsey: Something like that.
I'm wondering if any light is going to be shed on this conversation later in the season.
Lindsey: The key to Wolfram and Hart, don't let them make you play their game. You gotta make them play yours.
Angel: So where are you going Lindsey? Back to your roots?
Lindsey: Something like that.
I'm wondering if any light is going to be shed on this conversation later in the season.
Lindsey: The key to Wolfram and Hart, don't let them make you play their game. You gotta make them play yours.
Deviant Warlock
Not All Pain is Gain
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2002
- Messages
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- Age
- 42
Response to isa
isa, I think you have it backwards. The flashbacks during the fight made it seem entirely pro-Spike, showing how Angelus had wronged him. Plus, during the fight and until the end, Angel was acting quite angry and dark, with occasional spurts of maliciousness. They seemed to be playing it almost as Spike fighting Angelus, though they toyed with the fact it was still good ole Angel at the end when he asked Spike if he was just trying to take something of his. It was revenge.
I don't think Joss is going to 'dump a pie' on Spike...at least, not again. The pie-dumping was the rape scene in season 6 Buffy.
I believe the point of the fight was to show everyone, aside from the history of well-deserved hatred between Spike and Angel, that Angel does not have this humanity-thing in the bag. Before it seemed that it was just a waiting game -- eventually Angel was going to become human, probably to end the series. Now they've thrown that into doubt.
I do not see how someone could think that in any way Spike had 'hardened his heart' -- it seemed they were showing exactly the opposite. He was letting the long-suppressed hatred and resentment of Angel and Angelus out. We've seen glimpses of it in his demeanor and cutting remarks, but now we know the origins, the terrible betrayal that set him off. That it was Angelus, and by extension of guilt, Angel, who had made him into a monster.
As for Harmony, he had no qualms about using her. Nor did he make it a secret; she knew it, and she agreed to it. Apparently at some level she resented it, but Spike isn't the only one responsible for his actions -- Harmony is too. No one should be held responsible for the subconscious desires and opinions of another person's subconscious.
This episode showed the tremendous drive that Spike has for his future, his "destiny" (notice the parallels between the chalice and Druscilla?). I think in the end it is a warning and example for Angel -- do not become complacent. You have to want your destiny as much as Spike wants his, else you may be left bleeding in the dust.
Totally separately, I hope everyone paid attention to what Eve said at the end. The universe is not in trouble because Spike and Angel both exist, that's a ploy to turn them against each other. (more properly, to bring out the pre-existing animosity) Most likely the entire "newly deciphered text" in Shanshu was BS. For all we know, the existence of two vampires could work in the prophecy. Maybe it's plural, but that cannot be read from the text or people have just missed it. Or maybe not, maybe "there can be only one."
Only one way to find out.
isa, I think you have it backwards. The flashbacks during the fight made it seem entirely pro-Spike, showing how Angelus had wronged him. Plus, during the fight and until the end, Angel was acting quite angry and dark, with occasional spurts of maliciousness. They seemed to be playing it almost as Spike fighting Angelus, though they toyed with the fact it was still good ole Angel at the end when he asked Spike if he was just trying to take something of his. It was revenge.
I don't think Joss is going to 'dump a pie' on Spike...at least, not again. The pie-dumping was the rape scene in season 6 Buffy.
I believe the point of the fight was to show everyone, aside from the history of well-deserved hatred between Spike and Angel, that Angel does not have this humanity-thing in the bag. Before it seemed that it was just a waiting game -- eventually Angel was going to become human, probably to end the series. Now they've thrown that into doubt.
I do not see how someone could think that in any way Spike had 'hardened his heart' -- it seemed they were showing exactly the opposite. He was letting the long-suppressed hatred and resentment of Angel and Angelus out. We've seen glimpses of it in his demeanor and cutting remarks, but now we know the origins, the terrible betrayal that set him off. That it was Angelus, and by extension of guilt, Angel, who had made him into a monster.
As for Harmony, he had no qualms about using her. Nor did he make it a secret; she knew it, and she agreed to it. Apparently at some level she resented it, but Spike isn't the only one responsible for his actions -- Harmony is too. No one should be held responsible for the subconscious desires and opinions of another person's subconscious.
This episode showed the tremendous drive that Spike has for his future, his "destiny" (notice the parallels between the chalice and Druscilla?). I think in the end it is a warning and example for Angel -- do not become complacent. You have to want your destiny as much as Spike wants his, else you may be left bleeding in the dust.
Totally separately, I hope everyone paid attention to what Eve said at the end. The universe is not in trouble because Spike and Angel both exist, that's a ploy to turn them against each other. (more properly, to bring out the pre-existing animosity) Most likely the entire "newly deciphered text" in Shanshu was BS. For all we know, the existence of two vampires could work in the prophecy. Maybe it's plural, but that cannot be read from the text or people have just missed it. Or maybe not, maybe "there can be only one."
Only one way to find out.
R
rene
Guest
i knew it! i knew it!!! eve is evil!!! i told you guys! that was good!!! ill talk more tomorrow cause i have to go to bed!
hmmmm, just wondering if anyone noticed if Lindsey had both hands or not? I was so shocked to see him I forgot about the hand thing till now and I don't remember if he had both hands or not, anyone see? What hand was missing? I know I saw the right one, but I don't remember if I saw the left...
slayerangel
b/a always & forever
What I don't get is why, after the issues between Lindsey and Angel in S2, Lindsey is happy to know that Spike and Angel are turned against each other... I sense the beginning of a big, old story arc.
This ep is absolutely mind-blowing and my favorite of this season so far. I didn't expect Spike to be corporeal soon or that Lindsey would return! I should've noticed Christian Kane's name in the first act credits. It's no surprise that Eve is evil, of course. Knox was starting to annoy me, so I'm glad he's not in this episode.
This ep had so many pluses... Buffy was mentioned, Spike is corporeal again... and LINDSEY returned. I swear I was screaming at the TV when I watched that! I didn't really like the flashbacks and DB's hair, though.
In Buffy S6, Spike asked to be what he was before... he wasn't a demon with a soul before. He was human. Just a side thought.
Faithy, Lindsey has both hands. He had an operation in S2. His hand isn't evil, though. The owner wanted someone to kill himself, not other people.
This ep is absolutely mind-blowing and my favorite of this season so far. I didn't expect Spike to be corporeal soon or that Lindsey would return! I should've noticed Christian Kane's name in the first act credits. It's no surprise that Eve is evil, of course. Knox was starting to annoy me, so I'm glad he's not in this episode.
This ep had so many pluses... Buffy was mentioned, Spike is corporeal again... and LINDSEY returned. I swear I was screaming at the TV when I watched that! I didn't really like the flashbacks and DB's hair, though.
In Buffy S6, Spike asked to be what he was before... he wasn't a demon with a soul before. He was human. Just a side thought.
Faithy, Lindsey has both hands. He had an operation in S2. His hand isn't evil, though. The owner wanted someone to kill himself, not other people.
BeefChickenPie
Geek Trio wannabe
As complicated as the Buffyverse and Joss may seem, theres always a simple concept. With Spike and Angel, they're just an odd couple.
Spike is one of the good guys, but he's just the opposite of Angel. Spike treats women like objects, and he won't lose sleep over a person's death, but he is better than Angel in certain areas. He fought on Buffy's side without a soul, and he worked to get his soul.
Angel may be the ultimate hero, but if Spike were to lose his soul, he's not nearly as bad as Angelus.
Spike wasn't perfect in Season 7. He beat up on Faith, he considered killing Wood. Sure, he sacraficed himself for the world, but the current Spike would do the same.
I'm glad they didn't wait too long to confirm that Eve was bad. Because the longer they keep it a secret, the more things Eve does to help Angel, and when we watch this season on reruns, that wouldn't make sense. Even through 7 episodes, she's had a bunch of opportunities to kill Angel. Now they can write more realistic stuff for evil Eve.
Spike is one of the good guys, but he's just the opposite of Angel. Spike treats women like objects, and he won't lose sleep over a person's death, but he is better than Angel in certain areas. He fought on Buffy's side without a soul, and he worked to get his soul.
Angel may be the ultimate hero, but if Spike were to lose his soul, he's not nearly as bad as Angelus.
Spike wasn't perfect in Season 7. He beat up on Faith, he considered killing Wood. Sure, he sacraficed himself for the world, but the current Spike would do the same.
I'm glad they didn't wait too long to confirm that Eve was bad. Because the longer they keep it a secret, the more things Eve does to help Angel, and when we watch this season on reruns, that wouldn't make sense. Even through 7 episodes, she's had a bunch of opportunities to kill Angel. Now they can write more realistic stuff for evil Eve.
slayerangel
b/a always & forever
The fight between Angel and Spike was exactly what I'd been waiting for. They even fired comments at each other about Buffy to hurt each other emotionally. I was just mostly stunned after watching "Destiny."
Eve won't be trying to kill Angel anytime soon, I think. If he survives, her plan is ruined and plus, she'll just mess with his mind for now, I guess. Yay! Hopefully, there'll longer arcs this season.
Eve won't be trying to kill Angel anytime soon, I think. If he survives, her plan is ruined and plus, she'll just mess with his mind for now, I guess. Yay! Hopefully, there'll longer arcs this season.
I've not seen this episode yet, living in the UK and all but I found out about Lindsey by accident and I am So glad that my evil lawyer boy has returned!! I had an incling that he would 😀
Baron Samedi
Voted "Kick Ass!"
Wow.
This episode was fantastic for all the resons already stated. And now I can stop wondering about Eve. Although you guys seem to have missed something very crucial- Lynsey is not evil.
Sure he played the fence mostly on the side of W&H but that is exactly what team Angel are doing right now. There are major moral dilemmas for them as much as there was for Lynsey. When he left Lyns wasnt on amazing terms with Angel but he knew which good guy would help him.
There is a major animosity with the whole Darla thing. Recall Lyns was in love with her but she didnt love him back. Jealousy is a powerful thing. I believe that Lyns may hold Angel responsible for Darlas death. The whole Connor thing is a mark on her memory. If Lyns has what appears to be a knowledge of mystic arts then it is possible that he knows all about Connor and was unaffected by the reordering of history to erase him.
Interestingly this may also mean that Eve has absolutely nothing to do with the senior partners. She could have just walked in off the street and invented her role as liason. Remember she knows about Connor so either shes playing the senior partners or Lyns told her. There is therefore potential for a show down between Eve and Lyla Morgan. That would rock.
So Lynsey hates W&H and he may well hate Angel, who is W&H now. This does not bode well. However motivation is key. The amulet and resubstanciation of Spike are up for grabs as property of Lyns and Eve. The cyborgs wanted to control Angels will. This is also possibly the devious duos doing. Isnt it possible that the Angel gang are caught in a power struggle between the Senior partners and someone else? This maybe being Lyns. Other players may well be introduced.
Once again kudos to the writers for that ending. I thought they'd never top that 'Oh my god Cordelia is evil' ending but this came close. Ive been rooting for Lynsey's return for ages. Christian Kane who plays Lyns and David B are good friends. David has apparently asked many times for Christians return to the show.
This season is shaping up nicely
Baron
This episode was fantastic for all the resons already stated. And now I can stop wondering about Eve. Although you guys seem to have missed something very crucial- Lynsey is not evil.
Sure he played the fence mostly on the side of W&H but that is exactly what team Angel are doing right now. There are major moral dilemmas for them as much as there was for Lynsey. When he left Lyns wasnt on amazing terms with Angel but he knew which good guy would help him.
There is a major animosity with the whole Darla thing. Recall Lyns was in love with her but she didnt love him back. Jealousy is a powerful thing. I believe that Lyns may hold Angel responsible for Darlas death. The whole Connor thing is a mark on her memory. If Lyns has what appears to be a knowledge of mystic arts then it is possible that he knows all about Connor and was unaffected by the reordering of history to erase him.
Interestingly this may also mean that Eve has absolutely nothing to do with the senior partners. She could have just walked in off the street and invented her role as liason. Remember she knows about Connor so either shes playing the senior partners or Lyns told her. There is therefore potential for a show down between Eve and Lyla Morgan. That would rock.
So Lynsey hates W&H and he may well hate Angel, who is W&H now. This does not bode well. However motivation is key. The amulet and resubstanciation of Spike are up for grabs as property of Lyns and Eve. The cyborgs wanted to control Angels will. This is also possibly the devious duos doing. Isnt it possible that the Angel gang are caught in a power struggle between the Senior partners and someone else? This maybe being Lyns. Other players may well be introduced.
Once again kudos to the writers for that ending. I thought they'd never top that 'Oh my god Cordelia is evil' ending but this came close. Ive been rooting for Lynsey's return for ages. Christian Kane who plays Lyns and David B are good friends. David has apparently asked many times for Christians return to the show.
This season is shaping up nicely
Baron