Discussion of 5.08 "Destiny" - Airdate 11/19/03

Okay, wow! And again wow!

That was incredible. First off, about Spike. Isa and Deviant Warlock, I think you both are right about Spike. I do think that the writers have changed his personality a bit in a way that I don't like and that makes him less than sympathetic, however this is the Angel show, and he is the hero. Plus, Spike is not going to be as nice to total strangers as he was to the people he has been fighting with for the last 2 or 3 years. And not being able to "play with his willy" is bound to piss a fella off. However, he has seemed to warm up to Fred and Gunn quite a bit. In fact, he really seems to be trying to form a friendship with Gunn (one he should have had with Xander, but I won't go there).

And this ep did finally bring out the point that Angel made him into a monster, yeh! I loved that speech about Angelus trying to see someone as disgusting as himself. However, some of that may have been Spike trying to convince himself too. But come on, how bad can a vamp be whose first thought is to cure his mum of a fatal disease? Poor Willy, er William (hilarious!)

Thank you Baron Samedi for pointing out that Lyns is not really evil. If anything (going back to my opinion of Angel/Jasmine...last season) I think Spike was right when he intimated that Angel had chosen the side of evil to champion. I still think he made a bad by defeating Jasmine. I think it's cool how Joss is playing with these concepts of good vs evil, and how all the characters on Angel and Buffy for the last 2 seasons have been flipping sides with their darker halves, showing how these concepts are not set in stone. Now the "big bad" for this season of Angel is not exactly a bad guy, and how can Angel be the good guy if he is defending the evil law firm from one of it's disgruntled former employees? And, as dumb as this may sound, if Eve is there to take down W&H or the senior partners or whoever, then doesn't that make her statement about not being the bad guy true? Unless of course Lyns really is the bad guy which she knows, and I'm just waaaay off in my analysis of what's going on.

One more thing? As cool as the low lighting has been, is anyone else getting annoyed that you can't see what's going on anymore? I mean there is low "oooh kinda creepy" and then there is "what's the point of having a fight scene if all I can see are their faces, some of the time"?
 
holy crap!
What a great episode. It's my favorite of the season so far.

Somewhere, in the back of my mind, I knew the cup was fake... but it was still neat to see Spike and Angel battling for 'humanity'. I loved when Spike hit Angel with the cross. That was good. Oh, and all the references to Buffy were good, because they were trying to hurt each other more than on a physical level.

I knew Eve was evil. That is the reason why i can't really stand her. And Lindsey? Now, I'm not through watchin season 2 yet, so I'm not sure what happens to him... but it was weird that he's the big-bad. And what's up with the symbols on him and the walls. They resemble what was carved into Spike's chest by the ubervamp.

Drusilla is raving crazy. Loved her.

And lastly..... SPIKE CAN TOUCH THINGS! oh yeah, oh yeah. I was getting sick of him being a 'ghost'. Now, I'm a little peeved with the wirters for the Spike/Harmony badness... but I'm trying to overlook it.
 
Whoo Hoo!!! That's what I call an episode!!!!!

Loved it Loved it Loved it.

okay. now.

No one changed the toner

You have no idea how many times I've felt like that guy at work!!
LOL!!!

The root of the tree has split into two and both drink from the river?

That sounds an awful lot like a theory I posted on a Speculation thread. Hmmmm.
Mountain Dew?

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

And Lindsey. OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!

So what's with all the symbols?

Should we start calling him "The Artist formerly known as Lindsey"?

Seriously, I think we can definitely put to rest the mystery of who sent the amulet to Angel and who sent the package to Spike.

What is Lindsey up to? Does he want Angel out of the way so he can take control of Wolfram & Hart himself? Is he in cahoots with the Senior Partners or plotting against them? Has his hand gotten the better of him?

I don't believe Eve is really evil. I just think she's gotten involved with the wrong man (how many times has THAT happened to a woman?)
 
Oh yeh, Spike and the cross. I just remembered that he seems to have this thing with touching holy objects since he got his soul like in "Beneath you" and "Him". It sure didn't seem like that mega cross he hit Angel with was hurting him too much did it? And they made the point that Angel really hurts when he touches them. So is this something? Or is this just deginerating into a boy boy "I am bigger than you and can prove it by doing more gross stuff" type of thing? What with the sunlight touching contest flashback and all.
 
Originally posted by slayerangel
In Buffy S6, Spike asked to be what he was before... he wasn't a demon with a soul before. He was human. Just a side thought.
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Actually the trick was, he asked to be what he was before - able to kill humans again. Hense "i'll give that bitch what she deserves". What we didnt know was that he actually meant, he wanted to get his soul back, so he can give Buffy the love that she deserves. The demon returns his soul because that's what Spike was wanting to accomplish. If he wanted to become human again, they would've said something about that.

My takes on this episode: wasn't my favorite. The previews made it look a lot cooler than it actually was. Granted, it had a lot of good points in it. I enjoyed the fight scene between the two. Lots of cool action there. Lindsey coming back was pretty nutso. Needed, I guess. Pretty disappointed at how they played off Spike becoming corporeal again. They didn't really seem to make it a big deal. He just walked into a door, and no one really cared. Funny, because the first couple episodes of the season were geared towards getting him corporeal. Now it wasn't a big deal. And I thought he would go to Fred, instead of Harmony. Even with his soul, he's still a jerk.

In any case, I enjoyed the episode. Lots of turns that had me jumping. Not as much as Lineage though. I started feeling bad for Eve, when Gunn was choking her. And when she was talking to Fred, I kinda thought "maybe we had the wrong impression of her". But then she had to walk in her room smiling at the end, and I knew something was up. Ah well.

And no one else has mentioned this...there was no previews for next weeks ep...are we on our big Angel break that always comes in November, and lasts until January?
 
A bloody, intense and brilliant episode. I have this feeling that some kind of conflict has been set in motion with the scheming of Lindsey and Eve. Both James and David were absolutely fantastic - not only with their interaction with each other, but that superb fight scene. I also have to commend J. August Richards for his portrayal of Gunn in this episode. I'm sure that he had fulfilled the fantasies of many by choking Eve. As for Sparmony - it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Loved the look that Spike gave Harmony, and how she finally capitulated. And it was good to see Drusilla again.


Spike treats women like objects


I don't agree. I don't think that Spike treats all women like objects. He only treats Harmony as an object, because he has no respect for her.
 
Thanks Deviant Warlock and Dancing Dragon--thanks for including some feedback for my question. As we all know some of these shows can be so layered with so many separate messages, that we are all hit sometimes, in a very individual way. And that Harmony thing really, really bugged me. I even slept funny. Weird dreams.

It's good to get different perspectives.

Deviant Warlock--no I get the fight sequence and really appreciate the beginings of a discussion regarding a 'fixed' destiny such as Angel being being forced into change from the outside and showing Spike with the tremendous stength of character he had gained in making a free will choice. Two very different animals. And Spike KNEW he was going to win because of the difference. The way driven personalities do. And remember Angels description of Spike from way back in BTVS 2? Whatever gets in his way ends up dead.

Here's the thing, and this includes a nod to Dancing Dragon who got me thinking.

They show Spike taking a stand for himself and individuating from Angel--to demonstrate himself as someone free--but they contradict that by having him use Harmony.

Of course Spike is responsible for Harmony.

When one is in a superior position to understand the world one is extremely responsible for whom one has sex with. It is a critical act that can destroy spirits or create lives(literaly). I found Spikes attempt at Buffy forgivable within moments after the deep sincerity of his apology to her in her bathroom. And certainly after he got his soul back. Because of the state of his development and emotions at the time. It is much easier to understand a juvinile or child struggling with this huge cosmic love that was ripping and changing him from the inside out than it is to forgive a full grown and extremely well informed man who understands COMPLETELY what it means to be used--to then take advantge of a cripple.

And Harmony is a cripple to Spike. Not his equal in any fashion and yes you are responsible for understanding the maturity and emotional level of your partner. I loved President Clinton...but YES he was responsible for understanding a young intern's emotional nature.

In a way that scene was worse than rape because it is an accepted form of abuse toward women--especially young women. One can argue that a prositute is working the streets of her free will--so how come most pro's are victims of child abuse? A lot of girls who enter into 'easy' sexual relationships have been abused. Don't believe me? Take a poll among your friends and compare that poll to their sexual history.

And what? Harmony had to get 'crazy' to stand up for herself--and then HE DECKS her and leaves her behind with blood streaming from her eyes? And then just happens to mention her condition to them as they were passing by? Who is this jerk?

What I'm trying to say--is that the Angel writers seem to be disreguarding a storytellers holy purpose to tell the truth. Some kind, any old kind of cause and effect relationship in character development. The box and go 'poof!' You're corporeal again rates among the most most stupid to date. Cause and effect is important in learning a lesson or in teaching anything. That this series can't even do it in their science should be very scary.

I've never seen any version of souled Spike that would treat a woman that way. And even unsouled Spikes consideration of Harmony was at least more impassioned--he lusted big or hated big. But it was emotion.

This is like storytelling Dadism but without the fun of being avant garde. Just take all these bits and throw them in the air and pick up whatever. If I'm sounding pissed, it's because TV has such few story lines that talk about anything real--and this is one of the last. And I think they are blowing it. And it's not JM's fault--it's the shallow world view of the writers. They just can't seem to accept that Spike (and people who suffer greatly) can grow from experiance. As Spike's calm acceptance at the end of 7 proved he had. He had even accpeted that Buffy did not love him in the way he loved her. He knew that and still sacrficed himself regardless. This is extremely important in life. After seeing Buffy kiss Angel he bit back his pride swallowed it whole and submitted to humilty--that is the mark of a GREAT man. Nothing, nothing, less. I think the show is gonna get cancelled for underestimating the nature of being heroic. For being small and shallow.

And this strange cold hard hearted Spike will be one of the reasons. He is unlikeable. His eyes are flat and his emotional states (except with Fred) ring forced and untrue. And JM is too good an actor to blow it--so who is this Spike?
Abuse from a juvy might be funny.
More abuse from an adult man is just...more abuse...

sigh. I know the world changes--it's just...well...BTVS was just so close to having this really beautiful and still complex man as a creative visualzation and now that has been rounded down to...being pedestrian. Low class solutions to a complex story.

Does anybody realize how closely Spike resembles Connor now? Flat toneless speech. Dead eyes. I used to think it was poor acting on Connor's part--that is until the finale when we saw him all smiling and bright--but now that Spike is acting in the same diminished bitter 'family' capacity--maybe it's the direction and the writing. And the kind of person they want to play second fiddle to a Broody Angel would be an even more morose Spike or emotionaly flat Connor. They are caught in a trap and despartely need Cordys sparkle or an infusion of POSITIVE STRONG female energy. OR let Spike's female side out. he has a beautiful soul and instead of using it as a source of female energy (and guys don't freak we all have female/male traits and we know Spike is all guy) But why not tap his female side to soften the show instead of choosing to flattening him out.

And you know they only let Spike win last night cuz it was midseason and they always show Angel down in mid season--which means Spike will be busted to an emotional and or bloody pulp at the end...and I honstly don't think I'm gonna watch that long to find out. Guys. I think I'm done with the series.
Not just Angel but I rarely watch BTVS anymore. I think they seriosuly mess with our minds and send dangerous mixed signals. Setting us up and then milking our hearts for heartbreak.


Huh. Now that's a thought. But probaby just the mood I'm in. But I'm telling you, if that Harmony/Spike thing made me feel that way--they wanted me to feel that way. These storytellers are pros and I think they know exactly what they are doing.

thanks for the chat and those responses--don't feel obliged to respond,If you don't want to--I know I'm in a mood and maybe it will just pass.

isa
 
My question to you is: why are you diving so deep into the Spike and Harmony incident? There was nothing wrong with that. I don't understand how you people automatically go into thinking that Spike is abusing her. They're both vampires. One has a soul - Spike. Harmony couldn't give a damn what was going on. She "loves" Spike, from what we get. Spike was corporeal again, and wanted to experience something he hadn't in a long time. He knew Harmony would want to, so he took that. He didn't do any form of rape or abuse to her. They both wanted some action at that point, so they both got it. If you'll recall, when Harmony lashed out at him, it wasn't because she was "fighting back the abuse", it was because she went insane. Apparantly some people missed that fact. So Isa...it's too bad that you're not going to watch the show anymore, due to a character portrayal that you don't like. Sad.
 
In the midst of this episode I was torn between Angel and Spike. Even though I have always favored Angel, I have to admit that Spike has also proven himself and I can definitely see why he would want to be the one the propecy is about.

I loved how they mentioned Buffy *g* but I don't think that she should be used as a reason to fight or that they should have spoken about her so causally or crudely. It was very strange and I thought it was sort of demeaning to both Angel's and Spike's relationships with Buffy.

Okay, enough of that lets move on to the important stuff such as: LINDSAY!

Can I just say, WOW! Was he even more hot than previously?

Eve is just a skanky bad-acting hoe though.

Loved the eppy in all! 😀
 
Originally posted by Ninjalizer
My question to you is: why are you diving so deep into the Spike and Harmony incident? There was nothing wrong with that. I don't understand how you people automatically go into thinking that Spike is abusing her. They're both vampires. One has a soul - Spike. Harmony couldn't give a damn what was going on. She "loves" Spike, from what we get. Spike was corporeal again, and wanted to experience something he hadn't in a long time. He knew Harmony would want to, so he took that. He didn't do any form of rape or abuse to her. They both wanted some action at that point, so they both got it. If you'll recall, when Harmony lashed out at him, it wasn't because she was "fighting back the abuse", it was because she went insane. Apparantly some people missed that fact. So Isa...it's too bad that you're not going to watch the show anymore, due to a character portrayal that you don't like. Sad.
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Another accusation I'm getting tired of hearing is about Spike's cold-bloodedness. There are only two people at WH he has been negative toward - Angel and Harmony.

The reasons behind his attitude toward Angel is quite apparent - he has a grudge against his grandsire for so many things; treating him in an inferior manner, sleeping with Drusilla, especially since Angel was quite aware of his feelings toward the "Black Princess", Buffy, dismissing his alliance with Buffy and actions in Sunnydale; and most importantly, disregarding him. I'm surprised that so many had expected Spike to behave toward Angel the same way he did toward Buffy and the Scoobies in especially S7.

Harmony is another person that Spike has been cold-blooded toward. Quite frankly, Spike has no respect for Harmony. He has never taken her seriously or bothered to give her a chance to become her own person. He has treated Harmony in the same way that Angel has treated him. Of course, matters didn't help much when she had finally decided to turn her back on him - at least after shooting an arrow into his back ("Crush" BtVS S5). The problem with Harmony is that she has never gotten over Spike and once again, allowed him to use her for meaningless sex. She really needs to get over him. And Spike needs to learn to give her a chance to find self-respect.
 
All in all, it was great! I thought this it was a very entertaining episode. I always like it when they give us flashbacks and history of the characters. I don't think I was as shocked about Lindsay as some others were but I really am excited to see where it goes from here. I like Lindsay, a lot actually...

The battle between Spike and Angel was fantastic. They really gave it all during that fight. I luv both characters immensely, however I am glad that Spike for once went against Angel and won. I'm also very glad that Angel recognized the fact that Spike DID win, that obviously when one has enough passion and desire anything can be done!

I luv those two together on screen, I wish they would just kiss and make up already!
 
I really liked this episode, best so far. I really started to hate Angelus. How dare he sleep with Dru! I was cheering Spike on for a moment to beat Angel to a bloody pulp. Spike did seem a little off-base. I liked it when Gunn started to choke Eve. I don't trust her for a second. But her and Lindsey?l What's going on with those two?
 
Originally posted by Chasity

I luv both characters immensely, however I am glad that Spike for once went against Angel and won. I'm also very glad that Angel recognized the fact that Spike DID win, that obviously when one has enough passion and desire anything can be done!

I luv those two together on screen, I wish they would just kiss and make up already!
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I agree. I was thrilled Spike kicked his butt and even happier that Angel knew it. I also wish they would become friends but I was told it would be bad for the show.
 
oh my gosh....this ep was s0o0o good, when I saw lindsay, my mouth dropped, I was like oh my god is that Lindsay....wow...good ending...When Spike drank from the cup I was like oh man this sucks, but when it turned out to be mountain dew, I was like YAY!!!! I want Angel to become human, after all he's been through he deserves it..
 
I loved the episode, the best one yet.

I thought the flash backs would be abit longer though and we would have more Dru but I was wrong.

Angel didnt lose the fight because he doesnt have as much humanity in him as Spike he lost because he didnt care that much about TheProphecy anymore whereas Spike did(like S1-2 Angel) and loved how they threw Buffy into this "Buffy never loved you, because you werent me" and ofcourse Spike bringing up him having sex with Buffy, the only reason why he brought that up I think was because he knew that he could hold that over Angels head since Spike knows that wasnt Buffy at her greatest mood point and then how Angel kicked Spikes ass and ended up getting his ass kicked by Spike in the end.

What surprises me that much is how Spike can go off and have sex with Harmony and then wants to go off and find Buffy.

Loved the ending with Eve and Linsday, now Lilah really needs to return so we can have some good Lilah/Linsday bickering and wouldnt it be great if Lilah is the one to kill Eve(im not saying Eve dies in future episodes this is just something I would like to see)

But now we have to wait like 2-4 weeks just for a new episode of Angel and we still have 4 episodes to go until the big 100
 
Woh, that was a great episode. It's just....WOW! It was dramatic and funny! ANd, you know, I thought I was gonna go CRAZY about the whole Spike/Harmony thing, but the way they set it up, I was like "Oh nothin to worry about..."

Ooh, Lindsay will definetly spice things up...


LOVED THE BUFFY REFERENCES!
 
I will now bestow you the great honor of hearing what my hubby has to deal with every week when I watch Angel. Because I have no real time for intelligent thought, I will type for you, the initial, unmolded thoughts as the words escaped my lips during the episode.

On Spike and Harmony-That was 'ew. Wasn't that just, 'ew? Cuz i thought that was 'ew? Did you think that was 'ew? Spike's making me mad.....(in tiny singsong voice)

On flashbacks-That was cool.

On strangely homoerotic Angel/Spike moment----Hmmm...that was interesting. For a second it almost seemed like....oh, that was probably what they were going for....

On Angel/Spike fight-Don't beat Angel! Don't beat Angel!!!

On Spike drinking from the cup: NO!!!! It's Angel's SHANSHU!!! (At the very top of my lungs)

On surprise at the end: LINDSEY!!! LINDSEY!!!! LINDSEY!!!! (Accompanied by funny hopping dance that made my husband run away)

LOL! And that was a peak into Jacklyn's true, unrefined mind. Before I get to filter the whole thing into intelligent paragraphs. 😀
 
At the risk of over talking a plot line, I have to say that I too was deeply disturbed by the Spike/Harmony scenes. He was knowingly using her, and I do consider that abuse. Spike knows (or at least he should, as all guys know who act this way) that Harmony is going to mistake his sexual interest in her for romantic interest. She hasn't quite accepted the fact that he sees her as no better than a toilet to relieve himself in. And yes, she did attack him after "going crazy", but just cause she was crazy doesn't mean that her conclusions were false- he was using her to be Buffy just like he did in BTVS season 5, he even says not to spoil the mood by talking (by distracting him from his fantasy of which she is not a part). This is dispicable behavior, and all too common in our society, which is why it's presence in a show written by Joss who supposedly created the Buffyverse to encourage woman empowerment really ticks me off, and worries me. It's not just Spike, it's the whole direction of the show- no strong females, unless you count Fred who is now in ridiculously short skirts, all the main cast members except one are male, the two semi regular females (Eve and Harmony) are eye candy, and need I remind anyone of the male fantasy come true last season of the incredibly beautiful woman (the electric girl) who turns out to be a virgin! who Gunn then so kindly takes care of and then as far as we know has never contacted again.
Okay, sorry rant over.
 
I don't really agree that Harmony is being led to believe that Spike has romantic feelings for her. I think he makes it pretty clear exactly what he wants. And as much as some feminists want to piss and moan about how men only see women as objects and use them for sex, women do the same damn thing sometimes. As much as romantic idealists want to deny it, sometimes women just want sex too, and that's perfectly ok. Harmony knew what she was getting into, so quit all the bitching and the "Oh, I hate Spike, he's such a male opressor." Don't hate.

I also love all the confusion now regarding the Shanshu prophecy. I also loved that people thought I was nuts when I proposed the idea last season.

https://www.buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4597
 
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