Discussion of 5.12 "You're Welcome" (WB-US)

Raine said:
W.O.W! This is, without a doubt, my favorite Angel episode ever. I kept myself spoiler free, so the final scene shocked me like you wouldn't believe. Cordy is gone. Charisma Carpenter gave us 7 wonderful years as Cordelia. It's really hard to picture Cordelia as the bitch from Sunnydale in the first season of Buffy. She's changed so much and her character is greatly going to be missed.

Now let's be honest, who shed some tears while the credits were rolling... I did!

I lost it too. At first I was in shock then it hit me and I just lost it. I didn't read spoilers so of course I knew something was gonna happen but I didn't expect that. Images through the years kept coming to me and I kept crying harder and harder. I really hope they bring her back. Shes like the core of ANGEL's team.
 
LadyLavinia said:
You know, I was watching last night's episode, enjoying Cordelia's reunion with the Fang Gang and her subsequent apprehension over their new positions with Wolfram & Hart . . . when I found myself coming upon the scene with Cordelia and Wes. And that is when my enjoyment of the episode stopped.

Why? Because for some reason I cannot fathom, Wes remembers his affair with Lilah Morgan. Despite the fact that he has no memories of Connor - whose presence led him into Lilah's arms in the first place.

Now, I had brought up this fact when Wes mentioned chopping up Lilah in "Lineage", some five episodes ago. And I was told that Mutant Enemy would eventually explain this. Well, you know what? They haven't. I also suspect that they never will. I suspect that this is simply a ploy for the writers not to have Wes and Lilah's affair hanging over their heads, while they emesh themselves in the "glory" of Wes' love for Fred in upcoming episodes.

Something similar has happened before - namely Spike's friendship with Dawn. Although I never openly complained about it, I was among those who were frustrated by ME's handling of the pair's friendship. They ignored it throughtout most of Season 6 and only brought it back as a plot device for the attempted rape scene between Buffy and Spike in "Seeing Red". After that, they had an excuse to end Spike and Dawn's friendship for good.

And now I see the same thing happening over the whole Wes/Lilah/Connor/Fred thing. Despite all logic, ME has decided to allow Wes to remember his affair with Lilah without explaining HOW he remembered . . . all so they can prepare us for his upcoming romance with Fred.

This is just the latest incident of frustration that has greeted me, while watching some of my favorite TV shows. A similar frustration had already led me to abandon CHARMED back in Season 5. I've been ignoring FRIENDS nearly all season long. And I'm growing frustrated with "24" and their handling of the David Palmer character, this season. But after the Cordelia/Wes scene in last night's ANGEL and reading further spoilers, I don't think I want to bother with the rest of the season. At least not now.

Stop being melodramatic. There are other possible explanations for what happened. W+H erased the memory of Connor, not everything that happened in that entire season. One idea is that mystically, W+H made up new memories to explain what had happened. So some other event in Wes' memory had driven him to Lilah. The other is actually proven in studies of the human memory. When there's gaps, the human mind has a tendency to fill it. So when Wes couldn't remember how he ended up with Lilah he probably either dismissed it altogether, or his mind made up its own reason.

At any rate, this is a really stupid reason to stop watching the show. IMO.
 
I had a feeling this would be one of the best episodes in angel history and i was right....

OMG i cried though cause Cordy has been there season 1-4 in buffy and season 1-4 in angel so thats like 8 yrs of B*tch vamp slaying Cordy and now she's dead...My dad laughed at me for crying but i couldn't help it i mean poor Angel whats he gonna tell the others? Although it was great to see her kick a$$ one more time and so great to see her and Wes hittin the books together.......Just like old times....
 
Javen said:
Stop being melodramatic. There are other possible explanations for what happened. W+H erased the memory of Connor, not everything that happened in that entire season. One idea is that mystically, W+H made up new memories to explain what had happened. So some other event in Wes' memory had driven him to Lilah. The other is actually proven in studies of the human memory. When there's gaps, the human mind has a tendency to fill it. So when Wes couldn't remember how he ended up with Lilah he probably either dismissed it altogether, or his mind made up its own reason.

At any rate, this is a really stupid reason to stop watching the show. IMO.

Go **** yourself. If I want to be frustrated, I'll be frustrated. Who are you to tell me how to act?
 
Ha! I smell a flame war!
And amazingly enough, a flame war that I didn't start or instigate or participate in any way.
I must be getting old.
 
LadyLavinia said:
You know, I was watching last night's episode, enjoying Cordelia's reunion with the Fang Gang and her subsequent apprehension over their new positions with Wolfram & Hart . . . when I found myself coming upon the scene with Cordelia and Wes. And that is when my enjoyment of the episode stopped.

Why? Because for some reason I cannot fathom, Wes remembers his affair with Lilah Morgan. Despite the fact that he has no memories of Connor - whose presence led him into Lilah's arms in the first place.

Now, I had brought up this fact when Wes mentioned chopping up Lilah in "Lineage", some five episodes ago. And I was told that Mutant Enemy would eventually explain this. Well, you know what? They haven't. I also suspect that they never will. I suspect that this is simply a ploy for the writers not to have Wes and Lilah's affair hanging over their heads, while they emesh themselves in the "glory" of Wes' love for Fred in upcoming episodes.

Something similar has happened before - namely Spike's friendship with Dawn. Although I never openly complained about it, I was among those who were frustrated by ME's handling of the pair's friendship. They ignored it throughtout most of Season 6 and only brought it back as a plot device for the attempted rape scene between Buffy and Spike in "Seeing Red". After that, they had an excuse to end Spike and Dawn's friendship for good.

And now I see the same thing happening over the whole Wes/Lilah/Connor/Fred thing. Despite all logic, ME has decided to allow Wes to remember his affair with Lilah without explaining HOW he remembered . . . all so they can prepare us for his upcoming romance with Fred.

This is just the latest incident of frustration that has greeted me, while watching some of my favorite TV shows. A similar frustration had already led me to abandon CHARMED back in Season 5. I've been ignoring FRIENDS nearly all season long. And I'm growing frustrated with "24" and their handling of the David Palmer character, this season. But after the Cordelia/Wes scene in last night's ANGEL and reading further spoilers, I don't think I want to bother with the rest of the season. At least not now.

I'm sorry LadyLavinia but I agree with Javen.
You need to look past the contradictions. Angel had Connor erased from everybodies memories, but not everything else that happened the last year. There will always be things that can't fit together, but it would be more stupid to have all of the characters remembering wierd alternate dimensions. I think that if Angel eventually asks any of the characters about season 3 & 4 events, they are going to remember them in pretty much the same way. Wesley probably thinks that his relationship with Lilah was the thing that split him from the gang in the first place, as opposed to the other way around.

However, I sort of understood what you were on about until you came to the bit about Dawn. Here you are complaining about how the writers never fully account for the altered universes they created, when Dawn and Spikes friendship is proof that they do. We don't ever see the beginning of their relationship (due to Dawns non-existance) and so the writers have made one up. You can't have it both ways. They have to fill in the story somehow. So...

1) The writers spend a whole episode worth of time explaining what the entire cast remembers of the last year.
2) They leave the memories completely silent and never mention the season 3-4 arc at all.
or 3) They just remove all of the very specific Connor memories, and leave us to fill in the tiny plot gaps.

I honestly prefer the 3rd way. I can choose to believe that Jasmine was an immaculate conception and that Angel killed her. After all, I devoted hours of time watching the characters develop over the last few years. I would be annoyed if they suddenly changed back to their season 2 selves.

ATS and BTVS are really, really good at not making continuity errors, I barely know of any in the entire Whedonverse - in fact the only one that I can remember off the top of my head is that first Angel/Spike scene, where Angel says that he sired Spike. I don't see the Connor erase thing as a problem at all, and actually think it has been dealt with really well.

On a lighter note...
I loved the episode, especially the last scene. I hope Lindsey is back at some point. Also I think that Spike and Angel will still have to fight over the Shanshu later - its just that now Spike is upset because he was convinced it was about him, because of 'Doyle' and his visions.

Much as I love Cordy - her exit was beautiful, and I don't think she should return because it will spoil it. She got the heroes exit that she deserved. It was almost as moving as Doyles. Sadly, I thought Spike deserved to rest in peace last year. Few other characters have gone out as well as that. I hope that the big Angel finale gives everyone some good closure. I just hope it isn't this season...
 
M
MRFAITH
great post
LadyLavinia said:
Go **** yourself. If I want to be frustrated, I'll be frustrated. Who are you to tell me how to act?

I'm not really telling you how to act, I'm just saying you're overreacting. You said Wes remembered Lilah for reasons you couldn't fathom, I...err...fathomed them for you. No need for the thread to degenerate into profanity.
 
nerd4hire
nerd4hire
Good "Connor Memory" points
This was a pretty decent episode. I think that Cordelia was great, probably the best part, and I'm glad that they sent her off in such a warm way. The dialog that passed between her and Angel at the end of the episode left me all goosebumpy. I also really like her boobies! 🙂 I feel a little sad that Lindsay is gone-he was a pretty good "gives us problems" bad guy. He will be missed-I do feel that his departure was not as grand as it should of been considering his awesome and jaw dropping return. Oh yeah...I was luving Harm beat up on Eve! I laughed when she was telling Angel...I kept begging her to run...
 
a few things. I am a writer, (not on this show, thou that would be cool) there are some details you miss. You have to get into the head of each character and make them yours, sometimes you miss on things.

Now, I didn't watch season 4, too busy with school, and drinking. This show is much better written than Charmed, i watch both. At least with this show, you know that Joss will somehow make a screw up right, or at least explain it. The charmed people screwed things up before season 5. The show is now all about t and a.

I want Lindsey back, he is sooo damn evil, and I think he plays a great foil to Angel.

Harmony should have just continued to beat Eve, hopefully there are delelted seasons where that is happening.
 
Eric Faustus said:
Ha! I smell a flame war!
And amazingly enough, a flame war that I didn't start or instigate or participate in any way.
I must be getting old.

Maybe Cordelia just brings out the scrappyness in people.

It's too bad we can't get that conversation on the level of reasoned debate, because Javen made some good points.

Also I thought Angel did explain why people remember things differently when he called the Connor, thing an Alternate reality.

An alternate reality means different causes and effects create different, but similar events in separate realities. Meaning - It's like Javen said. They remember things differently. This is because things happened differently in 2 separate realities.

BTW has anyone mentioned yet the fact Cordelia was sizzling hot in You're Welcome.

She was.
 
Great Episode! Here are a few things I noticed:

I think this show was all about a return to things pre-Wolfram and Hart. Some observations on that fact:

- Gunn comments how he wishes he could go out and do some fighting. We haven't see that attitude out of him since he became Mr. Lawyer. I don't think he's done any fighting at all since then.
- The Wes/Fred scene was very interesting. You have Wes casting a spell, which he hasnt done in such a way for awhile (very S1, S2 esque) and you could see that in Fred. Will something develop between them now?
- Wes doing research on his own, without the help of his team. Haven't seen THAT for awhile.
- Angel recovering his sense of purpose.

There are probably more that I didn't notice, but yeah! Good times!
 
There's always something great about staying completely spoiler free. I didn't see Angel's line coming whatsoever..."When did she die?"... I thought Cordy was just going to get away from it all and move out of LA. But this episode didn't make me want to cry... I just started bawling real tears... like the crying that makes your eyes hurt and turn all red and makes your throat ache and your face shrivel.

It seriously feels like one of my own best friends has died yesterday, and ever time my mind drifts to thinking about the episode, I start tearing up. It's horrible.

But they handled this episode awesomely I thought, with Cordelia talking a little cryptically toward the end "This isn't me anymore. You can say goodbye to the gang for me. Explain everything, once you understand." "I'm just on a different road." "The Powers That Be owed me one, and I didn't waste it."

::crying2: ::crying:: 🙁


nerd4hire said:
BTW has anyone mentioned yet the fact Cordelia was sizzling hot in You're Welcome.

She was.
Goodness... especially with all the sword-holding. Sexy indeed.
 
FiveByFiveB said:
There's always something great about staying completely spoiler free. I didn't see Angel's line coming whatsoever..."When did she die?"... I thought Cordy was just going to get away from it all and move out of LA. But this episode didn't make me want to cry... I just started bawling real tears... like the crying that makes your eyes hurt and turn all red and makes your throat ache and your face shrivel.

It seriously feels like one of my own best friends has died yesterday, and ever time my mind drifts to thinking about the episode, I start tearing up. It's horrible.

I'm right there with ya. Last night i was staring at the ceiling just crying my eyes out. But now i'm kinda refusing to believe that shes gone even though she probably is. But i'm coming out firmly against it.
 
I don't know whether to love or hate this episode. It hads lots of pro's and cons.

Harmony was really a part of the gang. Doyle was mentioned. The Connor-issue was talked about. They finally kissed 😀 That was all pretty good.

But then, Spike became Angel's sidekick. Lindsey was dealt with too easily. Cheese-factor. Lindsey background story was near to neglected. Eve turned on her lover after a mere two slaps from Harm. Cheese-factor reprise.

Only the final scene of this episode was really good, the rest was so-so.

One more thing, the directing was superb!
 
maybe Eve really didn't love him, and was just in it for the sex. maybe eve is just that damn stupid.

yeah, but I get this feeling that this is not the last time we see Lindsey, so maybe Lindsey does meet a grusome death anyway.
 
nerd4hire said:
BTW has anyone mentioned yet the fact Cordelia was sizzling hot in You're Welcome.

She was.

Yes! I also really like her boobies! That's what I say! Actually she looked great in general...luved the hair, outfits...yeah! She was spicy!
 
She's gone.
After nearly eight years she's gone.
Only question I have, is that if she never woke up, then what exactly was she, a ghost, an apparition?
Because she touched everybody.
Spike even tasted her blood.
Which reminds me...he said it didn't taste "demony"...am I missing something...did Cordy's demon half go away when she became a higher power...I didn't see much of the begining of the fourth season...
Shouldn't she still have tasted demony?
I think this ep would have been better as a two-parter.
They could've done with more time between Cordy and Lorne, and Cordy and Harmony...
Just my 2 cents
 
Vicious said:
She's gone.
After nearly eight years she's gone.
Only question I have, is that if she never woke up, then what exactly was she, a ghost, an apparition?
Because she touched everybody.
Spike even tasted her blood.

I believe that Cordy was as real/corporeal as she could be. The Powers That Be owed Cordelia a favor and this was it - bringing her back to see everyone she loves.. and to help them and set them back on their paths.. one last time before she eventually died.
 
I really liked this episode, pretty good for the 100th. It was great seeing Cordy again. But now she dead; I'm so depressed. Everyone was great here.
 
More Harm/Cordy, definitely.

Later on Spike corrected himself and said her blood didn't taste evil, instead of didn't taste demon.
 
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