Discussion of 5.13 "Why We Fight" (WB-US) - Airing 2/11/04

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Buffy Summers

Yataro
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Lawson (guest star Eyal Podell, "Behind Enemy Lines"), a mysterious man from Angel's (David Boreanaz) past, arrives at Wolfram & Hart and takes the gang hostage. Through flashbacks to World War II, it is revealed that Angel worked with the U.S. Navy to recover a captured German submarine with American sailors on board. The ship also has a secret cargo, a dangerous trio of vampires, including Spike (James Marsters), who were kidnapped by the Germans and forced to help the Nazis. When the sub comes under attack, Angel saves Lawson's life by turning him into a vampire. Now, sixty years later, Lawson has arrived at Wolfram & Hart seeking revenge.
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This for discussion of the episode after it airs.
 
Good episode.

It's always fun to see flashbacks, and this was far better than most. The Prince of Lies being introduced alone would have made the episode.

The new trend of ending episodes with an Angel/Spike dialogue is pretty interesting. I'm not sure if it's something to run with much longer, but I've liked its use thus far.
 
Sorry but to me this was a boring episode, not much going on in it, I liked seeing The Prince of Lie though. Spike looked old and ugly with black hair and I just didnt like the whole fact that he and Angel met agian during that time espically when Angel had his soul and all plus the whole turning someone into a vampire.
 
B
Blackarachnia
An astute observation.
I thought the episode was pretty good but not as good as last week's. The flashbacks were pretty cool...I always like seeing Angel's past and his adventures. Did anyone catch the one guy telling Angel he was the head of the "new" Demon Initiative Branch of the government? I liked that Buffy connection. So, now we know it started up around WWII. I guess the point of the episode was about purpose? Lawson was basically lost in life since he didn't enjoy killing like most vamps do. Lastly, that one vamp called "Prince of Lies," oh man, he was a funny one.

Next week's looks hilarious! I can't wait!
 
I rather liked it. I thought there was a great exchange between Angel and Spike on the sub; "I don't want to get stuck on the bottom of the ocean" "and I don't want them performing brain surgery on me". For longtime fans, that was a major wink.
 
I really enjoyed the episode. Drew Goddard is fast climbing my list of favorite writers. I thought that the story was great, and very well executed, and as Watcher Wes pointed out, the continuity for the fans was especially fun to hear/see. My dad, who has never viewed Buffy or Angel favorable even comented on how much he had enjoyed this ep. Also, I loved The Prince of Lies, when I first saw him, I screamed "It's Nosferatu!" scarring my dad half to death.

A few things though; did it seem like Spike was too nice? Not really evil enough? And, where in the deep blue sea was Drusilla? I understand that she may not have been caught along with Spike, but niether he nor Angel even made an allusion to her. This was the only thing that I really didn't like about the ep. That and the fact that Spike in 1943 seemed a little much like ensouled Spike of 2003-04.

Oh yeah, what about C-O-R-D-E-L-I-A?!?!?
Did everyone forget she's dead??? In the begining, they were sitting around the table, no one seemed especially upset did they? No one mentioned her. Shouldn't there be more of a fallout??

~Kindred
 
that was good lawson was kinda cute i thought it would be boring but the ep was good spike did look kinda old with that hair that prince of lies thing was funny when he laughed and yea they shoulda mentioned cordy
 
WatcherWes said:
I rather liked it. I thought there was a great exchange between Angel and Spike on the sub; "I don't want to get stuck on the bottom of the ocean" "and I don't want them performing brain surgery on me". For longtime fans, that was a major wink.
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Nice call. I didn't notice that. I enjoyed this episode, but I am partial to stand-alone episodes. I loved the Prince of Lies and Rasputin lover, who were hilarious, but it seemed like some of the things that happened in this episode must have conflicted with facts established earlier in the series about Angel tasting blood, siring vampires or meeting Spike. I didn't mind much, though because it was fun to watch and as nice break from the main plotline of the season.

I realize that it may seem a little early after Cordelia's death for everyone to be getting on with their lives (and I wish they had explained how the whole Cordelia incident worked), but I don't think that it would be worth spending an episode watching everyone mope about and mourn for her.

I agree with Deviant Warlock about the new trend of Spike and Angel's final thoughts at the end of each episode. It is interesting, but I do not think that it should be something that occurs in every episode. A monologue about the moral of the episode works for some shows (The Twilight Zone, Jerry Springer, The Outer Limits, Early Edition), but I do not think that it would work for Angel. The Jossverse has always been very complex and allowed viewers to make their own interpretations, and I think that it should stay that way.

I admit that I was a little apprehensive about this episode when I saw the preview, but I think that it worked out well. (I am certainly glad that Spike was not a Nazi. Murdering women and children for fun is one thing, but let's not get carried away...) I am not so sure about the next episode, though. It will either be very funny or very difficult to watch. Either way it will be pretty strange.
 
Good Episode....Nervous About Next Weeks.

I thought it was a pretty good. I liked when Angel said he didn't want to be stuck at the bottom of the Ocean and Spike said he didn't want brain surgery. Pretty funny when you consider those exact things would happen to them in the future. I also liked it when that Nosferatu looking vamp (was it him or not?) did a little laugh, took a deep breath and then let out a little moan of sadness (at least that's how it sounded to me). I found that hysterical. I loved it when Angel decked the Nazi even after he was bitten by a vampire.

The preview for the new episode with the muppet, honestly, felt funny & weird at the same time. I was almost embarrassed by it. I was watching with someone who knows the show and someone who doesn't, so a preview with the muppets made it look look like a stupid show with cheap gimmicks (similar to "Charmed", I'm not saying Charmed isn't good, I honestly don't know. I don't watch it, but the previews for the show all seem to have a huge gimmick for ever episode to get you to watch. I Dream of Jeanie episode was the newest one that I noticed).

I just hope they pull it off and make it funny, not just for us fans, but for anyone else who decides maybe they'll check out this "Angel" show to see what the deal is. The only way I'd be completely comfortable about them pulling off a muppet "Angel" episode was if Joss Whedon wrote and directed it. Then I'd be willing to guarantee it's greatness.

I'll probably like it because I'm a big fan and have seen every episode, but I just hope the episode is so good that even a non fan would enjoy it. If it's is the latter than I'll probably love it.

I do love how "Angel" can be as dramatic and horrifying as just about any show on TV and then have an episode so comedic and goofy like next weeks episode.

PS: Did anyone else notice Gunn's little slip up right in the middle of his sentence that was not touched upon for the rest of the episode? Looks like a hint of something to me. Not sure what exactly, but I know something is up.
 
skital said:
I thought it was a pretty good. I liked when Angel said he didn't want to be stuck at the bottom of the Ocean and Spike said he didn't want brain surgery. Pretty funny when you consider those exact things would happen to them in the future. I also liked it when that Nosferatu looking vamp (was it him or not?) did a little laugh, took a deep breath and then let out a little moan of sadness (at least that's how it sounded to me). I found that hysterical. I loved it when Angel decked the Nazi even after he was bitten by a vampire.

The preview for the new episode with the muppet, honestly, felt funny & weird at the same time. I was almost embarrassed by it. I was watching with someone who knows the show and someone who doesn't, so a preview with the muppets made it look look like a stupid show with cheap gimmicks (similar to "Charmed", I'm not saying Charmed isn't good, I honestly don't know. I don't watch it, but the previews for the show all seem to have a huge gimmick for ever episode to get you to watch. I Dream of Jeanie episode was the newest one that I noticed).

I just hope they pull it off and make it funny, not just for us fans, but for anyone else who decides maybe they'll check out this "Angel" show to see what the deal is. The only way I'd be completely comfortable about them pulling off a muppet "Angel" episode was if Joss Whedon wrote and directed it. Then I'd be willing to guarantee it's greatness.

I'll probably like it because I'm a big fan and have seen every episode, but I just hope the episode is so good that even a non fan would enjoy it. If it's is the latter than I'll probably love it.

I do love how "Angel" can be as dramatic and horrifying as just about any show on TV and then have an episode so comedic and goofy like next weeks episode.

PS: Did anyone else notice Gunn's little slip up right in the middle of his sentence that was not touched upon for the rest of the episode? Looks like a hint of something to me. Not sure what exactly, but I know something is up.
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Yes - Gunns slip up. I noticed that and I think that it means that because Eve has left and there is no contact with the Senior Partners, Gunn is losing his legal knowledge, or at least having problems accessing it. Maybe this is his version of the 'failsafe'. If he leaves W&H then he will lose his gift.
 
All last week i thought this episode was gonna suck cause it looked boring but it was suprisingly entertaining i mean Spike with black hair that was rather funny to see..... LOL poor spike all left out in speaking german.... but it was a rather interesting episode now i just can't wait till next wensday Angel as a puppet that'll be rich
 
Kindred said:
I really enjoyed the episode. Drew Goddard is fast climbing my list of favorite writers. I thought that the story was great, and very well executed, and as Watcher Wes pointed out, the continuity for the fans was especially fun to hear/see. My dad, who has never viewed Buffy or Angel favorable even comented on how much he had enjoyed this ep. Also, I loved The Prince of Lies, when I first saw him, I screamed "It's Nosferatu!" scarring my dad half to death.

A few things though; did it seem like Spike was too nice? Not really evil enough? And, where in the deep blue sea was Drusilla? I understand that she may not have been caught along with Spike, but niether he nor Angel even made an allusion to her. This was the only thing that I really didn't like about the ep. That and the fact that Spike in 1943 seemed a little much like ensouled Spike of 2003-04.

Oh yeah, what about C-O-R-D-E-L-I-A?!?!?
Did everyone forget she's dead??? In the begining, they were sitting around the table, no one seemed especially upset did they? No one mentioned her. Shouldn't there be more of a fallout??

~Kindred
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yeah, spike did seem like the same one we know now didnt he? he wasnt as bubbly and cheerful as the old evil spike i remember. and he bowed down to angel even worse than he does today!

overall, the ep was kind of lame. its like, "ok, lets do another angel flashback/revenge thing". the guy's over 250 years old, they could do a hundred eps like this! it didnt get anything done in the story is what i'm saying, just a bland filler ep....
 
Primal Slayer said:
Sorry but to me this was a boring episode, not much going on in it, I liked seeing The Prince of Lie though. Spike looked old and ugly with black hair and I just didnt like the whole fact that he and Angel met agian during that time espically when Angel had his soul and all plus the whole turning someone into a vampire.
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I agree with your feelings about this episode. I found the first half pretty funny and Spike had some good lines but it was pretty obvious in its message, its theme. Did we really need another ep about Angel finding a reason, a mission, to go on fighting.

And, Spike made several vamps after getting a soul - when the First was controlling him - and they turned out pretty straight evil vamp. So, how did Angel somehow give him part of a soul so he couldn't enjoy being evil?

And the Nazi's are a pretty obvious symbol of evil. I think they can do so much better. ::eyes:: ::eyes:: ::eyes:: ::snail:: ::snail::

WatcherWes said:
I rather liked it. I thought there was a great exchange between Angel and Spike on the sub; "I don't want to get stuck on the bottom of the ocean" "and I don't want them performing brain surgery on me". For longtime fans, that was a major wink.
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I didn't think of that. That was clever. And the evil American said he was in charge of a new group - The Initiative to investigate demons. The beginning of the Initiative which chipped Spike and had Buffy touching and being touched by that boring boring man.
 
It was a pretty good episode for a filler, although I've never been a big fan of fillers. I've always felt the writers should use the time to establish an even deeper and more complex story with their air time, not just come up with stuff to kill time.

The premise was kind of interesting but once again Spike was completely out of character. They made some bold moves with him early in the season and now he's back to being Angel's whipping boy. ???

I personally think they should have used some kind of premise based on Cordelia's funeral. It's not always a bad thing to say goodbye to one of your storylines biggest characters...
 
I rather liked the episode. I kinda got cinfused at the beggining. I thought that there were monsters taking about the crew and that Spike and the other 2 guys were sent there to kill the monsters, but instead killed the monsters AND humans.

so it took me a minute to figure it out.

despite what some of you said, there was a bunch going on, and was a really neat episode.

My only 2 critisisms are 'no one said anything about Cordy', and 'the battle with...that vampire/ensign guy' was too quick.
 
I didn't expect much from the episode. The whole concept sounded rather boring and predictable (or played out). But Joss put a nice twist on it. It's not my favorite episode, but I did like it a lot. I loved that Spike was down there with him. From what the preview showed, I thought Spike was actually a Nazi. That scared me, to say the least. But all's well that ends well.

My attention was rudely broken during certain parts of the episode, and I'm afraid I missed something important, so could somebody please fill me in?: Spike and the two other vampires were captured by the Nazis and that was the "cargo" that killed everyone in the beginning. The picture/drawing/file that the Americans showed Angel was about the vampires, and that's part of the reason he went there, because he knew what he was dealing with.

Or did I completely miss something and the Americans also sent the vamps down there, like Angel, to take something else out... ?


Now that I think about it, I actually wish I had taped that episode... 😎
 
Allison said:
I didn't expect much from the episode. The whole concept sounded rather boring and predictable (or played out). But Joss put a nice twist on it. It's not my favorite episode, but I did like it a lot. I loved that Spike was down there with him. From what the preview showed, I thought Spike was actually a Nazi. That scared me, to say the least. But all's well that ends well.

My attention was rudely broken during certain parts of the episode, and I'm afraid I missed something important, so could somebody please fill me in?: Spike and the two other vampires were captured by the Nazis and that was the "cargo" that killed everyone in the beginning. The picture/drawing/file that the Americans showed Angel was about the vampires, and that's part of the reason he went there, because he knew what he was dealing with.

Or did I completely miss something and the Americans also sent the vamps down there, like Angel, to take something else out... ?


Now that I think about it, I actually wish I had taped that episode... 😎
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Spike and the other vamps were captured by the Nazi's to do experiments on them. Spike said he didn't want the US gov't digging around in his head and that is how he got his chip (foreshadowing from behind). Angel was recruited by the Initiative to study Demons - the beginning of the Initiative. So, Angel was sent to take out the vamps but his real mission - as he kept saying - was to get the sub to the Allies so they could get the technology off of it. ::skull:: ::skull:: ::skull::
 
There was some really good stuff in here, particularly the flashback stuff. However, the present day stuff was boring. You do a flashback episode, make the present interesting.
 
It was an OK ep...I liked flashbacks and Angel's hairdo back then🙂..It's not definitely one of my favs..
 
i thought this was a really good episode..it was a little strange that noone mentioned cordy though..she's dead! And noone said anything!!! hmmmm
I liked the flash backs, spike was hilarious...lol, the prince of lies was great. I felt bad for that guy though, i kinda wish angel hadn't killed him...
 
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