Discussion of 5.18 "Origin" (WB-US) - Airing 4/21/04

Buffy Summers

Buffy Summers

Yataro
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from thewb.com

Angel (David Boreanaz) resists the appeal of parents seeking help from Wolfram & Hart regarding their son's supernatural abilities after he discovers that the boy is his son, Connor (guest star Vincent Kartheiser). Despite his reservations, Angel is forced to bring Connor into conflict with an old adversary to prevent his son's memories from being restored. Meanwhile Wesley (Alexis Denisof) uncovers a mysterious deal struck by Wolfram & Hart that threatens the secret Angel desperately wants to protect.
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Discuss...
 
OMG I totally loved everything about this episode, I have to admit that I loved seeing Connor agian, totally refreshing. I loved the demon guy it wouldve been great to see him in Buffy in reference to Dawn, oh god if I could write...

The ending was great, you can tell that Connor remembered everything and it was funny how he is still attracted to older women.

to bad we didnt get to see more of the reactions from the remaining fang gang.

10/10 ep
 
All I can say is I loved every second of it. I can't believe we only get 4 more episodes.
 
Oh for the first time ever I liked Connor. I just want to know how they kept both sets of memories...but the end was really cool. I can't believe he would just walk away though.
 
I loved this episode Connor looked really good, and i think it was decent of him not to really hate angel at the ending but you could tell he remembered everything... I loved the Fred/Spike parts lol and her qoute about keeping spike as a pet. I can't wait till the next episode i can't believe theres only 4 episodes left it sucks...
 
Buffy Summers said:
Oh for the first time ever I liked Connor. I just want to know how they kept both sets of memories...but the end was really cool. I can't believe he would just walk away though.
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since both memories are different they can probably differentiate(sp) between them, and they may know which one is true and which is false. Its like someone constantly telling you one thing but you later on find out about something else, you still remember both but you know which one is true and which isnt.
 
I agree with everybody... Connor *totally* knows... when he started fighting with that demon and how he was at the end.... just walking away... I can't wait for next week!
Also, the same as Angels_baby101, I love the wanting to keep Spike as a pet... so do I, Illyria!🙂 And the clipboard part got me too... I was just talking about clipboards today... the irony of it all... lol...
This was a great episode!!!
 
I loved it too. I thought Conner was a nice addition (for once). Illyira was great with Spike. I adored her wanting to keep him as a pet! That was hilarious! I also liked the scene when she and Connor meet and she goes:

"This one is lusting after me"

"Sorry, the outfit - I guess I just have a thing for older women"

"They were supposed to fix that"

I liked the recap of all the memories, all the way back in season three. A nice look of the two different scenarios.

But I also enjoyed Gunn's part of this episode. I liked it how he was offered a chance out of hell, and he passed it up. I'm not sure why, but I liked that.
 
I enjoyed every *single* second of this ep...or at least I will until I come of this little Angel high. I thought the whole thing was really interesting I wanted to see everyone else's reaction...but then I realized the only person of interest left in the deal is Lorne. Still...The Spike/Illyria stuff was frigging *hilarious* "I've been hitting the half-breed...he makes noise" LOL. I really liked Wesley in this episode. Well, I really like Wesley in every episode...Great move to have Wes be the one to find out about the mind-sweep. Alexis is a great actor...His conversations with Illyria are really...interesting, for lack of better term. Almost philosophical. I'm going to have to rewatch the ep...
 
This wasn't a bad episode, I am really bummed this is one of the last ones..
Even thought I wasn't a fan of Connor before I wish we could see how things unfold for him and Angel. I actually liked seeing Connor different, happy, he was funny, and even, god forbid, likeable.. (and IF Connor does remember shouldn't he be told about Cordy?)
Wow I really feel sorry for Wes, (Alexis did a great job as usual) he just get's darker and darker. I think he is going to a bad place especially with this new guilt of the recalled memories.
I love the spike parts, James is just so damn good at spike.
Fred replaced Harm for comic relief, aka Anya style comments about Connor, that was a quotable line for damn sure..
I hate how they tried to further deteriorate Gunn, but I loved that he declined, he really wants to pay for his sins so to speak. Also I want to applaud DB on his shocked and torn scenes with Connor, I think that was some good acting on DB's part.
I HATE THAT THEY CANCELED ANGEL! and this episode is an example why. There is so much more to be explored in these storylines, and there is no way it is all getting done in a few more episodes. Anyways, I can't wait to see what happens next, though I dread the end, I know it will be good.
 
Faithy said:
(and IF Connor does remember shouldn't he be told about Cordy?)
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That is a major loose end that I don't think they will solve. If I was Connor I would be extremely worried about her. Connor was good in this episode, but I think the ending was too easy. He should have been worried about Cordy and asked some questions and then left.

I'm glad to have Wesley back to normal. I have been waiting all season for him to get his memories back.

I'm starting to like Illyria. She was funny in this episode and a lot more interesting in action than talking to Wesley last episode. I liked her with Spike and I find her loyalty to Wesley intriging. I wouldn't mind a Wesley/Illyria couple but I don't see it happening.

I think Fred's soul must still be in Illyria. In the Whedonverse completely soulless demons are evil and have no concept of morality. (higher powers like Jasmine don't count since they aren't demons, but you could argue that Jasmine was evil.) Let me alter that a little. Souless creatures have no concept of goodness in a human sense of the word and therefore do evil to human beings. Illyria isn't nice, but she is loyal. She reminds me a little of an ensouled vampire. She could be soulless, but that would make her completely evil. I think that if Illyria was completely evil she would do a lot more damage than she is doing now. I could be wrong, though.

I personally think the writers and producers waited until too late in the season to introduce this story arc. I'm expecting a good finale though.

Faithy said:
(and IF Connor does remember shouldn't he be told about Cordy?)
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I was a good episode. The server just deleted my reply so I'm writing another. I think that the fact that Connor didn't ask about Cordy was a major oversight. He should be very worried about her, especially with his new memories and his new-found insight and compassion.

I am extremely happy that the spell is finally broken. Wesley is back! He remembers everything and is once again the character I love.

I liked Illyria a lot more in this episode than in the last one. She is finally maturing into a unique character. Her interaction with Spike was very good, and I find her loyalty to Wesley intriging.

I have a question about Illyria. Does she have Fred's soul?
From what I know about the Whedonverse, soulless creatures are evil to humans because they have no concept doing good actions. They have no morality. A soulless vampire may care about another person, but is never selfless or "good." I'm wondering because the doctor said that Fred's soul was "consumed." For a purely evil demon Illyria is strangely nice. She likes to hurt Spike, but also enjoys his company and has not killed anyone other than Fred. Once Illyria was resurrected and realized she had no more power, she has become content to live in and observe this world. My conclusion either she is a part of the Apocalypse or she has Fred's soul.
 
I don't think the Conner thing will be resolved, unfortunately. It's too late in the season, and too many other things that have to be dealt with. If I was Conner, I'd be wondering where the hell Cordy was, too, but I guess it makes better...drama, or whatever...for him to walk off with that "I know..." look. It would have lessened the impact that he knew if he started asking questions.
 
OK, it's official, Drew Goddard is a genius.

But here's the question that keeps beating around in my head - Does Angel still have a deal with Wolfram & Hart? Angel has no reason to want the deal anymore. By appearances, it's not looking like Wes, Gunn, or Lorne still like the deal either.

W & H hired an agent to facilitate the "reality shift". He could be seen as their employee. If he reneges on the deal, one might say W & H are also breaking the deal by proxy. I don't know how inter-dimensional law works, but I think "Angels Avengers" have a deal-breaker. They need Gunn.
 
I really enjoyed this episode. I am a huge fan of Illyria, and as Hitome said, she was more fun to watch in this episode than the last. She is on the path to becoming the character I had hoped she would become. I am really hoping that she will turn out to have been imbued with some of Fred?s soul during the resurrection, much like she gained Fred?s memories. I am also enjoying her humor, which is of course much like Anya?s. Her interaction with Spike was priceless, and in the fine tradition of wishing for unlikely spin-offs, I am going to wish for an Illyria spin-off, in which Illyria travels the world with Spike as her pet, searching for the meaning of her newfound existence on Earth.

As for Connor, I think that the reason he is choosing to leave things with Angel behind him is that he has finally found the stable family that he had always wished for. He had always resented his father for being unable to provide one for him, and I think that he can finally forgive Angel because Angel has finally provided him with the aspect of his life that he was missing.
 
Except now you have the question of whether they could go back to just being AI, and give up all the W&H stuff
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Yeah! Boy, what a great setup for a following episode.
 
About the Connor thing:

Connor obviously doesnt want to act like his old self. He likes who he is now, and maybe he is just repressing the memory of Cordy. Since Angel and co. are so well off he may be thinking the same thing for Cordy, plus we dont know whats going through his head right now.

This also isnt the end of the season since:
Connor comes back at the end of the season
 
nerd4hire said:
OK, it's official, Drew Goddard is a genius.

But here's the question that keeps beating around in my head - Does Angel still have a deal with Wolfram & Hart? Angel has no reason to want the deal anymore. By appearances, it's not looking like Wes, Gunn, or Lorne still like the deal either.

W & H hired an agent to facilitate the "reality shift". He could be seen as their employee. If he reneges on the deal, one might say W & H are also breaking the deal by proxy. I don't know how inter-dimensional law works, but I think "Angels Avengers" have a deal-breaker. They need Gunn.
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Hmm interesting theory there. However, he only 'threatened' to reneg on the deal to get Angel and Connor to do his dirty work. Wesley was the one who actually broke the reality shift. So would W&H still be responsible? I'm not sure. I do see this as marking the AI team leaving W&H though, since W&H no longer has this hold over them. But I think there will be serious repurcussions as it was not them who broke the deal.

This was a fantastic and thoroughly enjoyable episode. Great writing and acting. I love that Wesley is suffering now with the memories of what happened because it was his own fault that they are back. Great job by Alexis in this episode.
 
I hope that's not the end of Connor. I ALWAYS loved his character. I could never see what people had against him. Kartheiser is such a great actor. You have to atleast give him that! WOOPLE!

(Those "Spoiler: Highlight to view"s are so tempting.... AHHHH!)
 
This was like the best episode ever... okay, maybe I'm a little overreacting, but still, it was very good.

I loved the new Connor, I liked him before, but he's much much cooler now. I know there's a lot of people, who didn't like him before, but I guess this episode should've made them all do a 180.

Illyria was also great, her dynamic with Spike and Wes is great. I'm sort of glad Fred died.

One question, what was it Hammilton asked Gunn in that dimension, before Gunn put on the amulet, I didn't hear it properly?
 
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