Discussion of 5.18 "Origin" (WB-US) - Airing 4/21/04

[Liam]

My only qualm?

Connor's fashion sense..... Urgh...

 

[Latara]

Loved it... Love this season soooo much.

Connor was much better this way, I hated him the old way. I think it's interesting how he pretended not to know except for a few things at the end. And I'm glad they resolved that prophecy thing.

I'm kind of pissed that Wesley broke the box... I mean, it's just, "now I have more things to mope about!" Like Illyria said (paraphrase) "these are the memories you wanted back so much?"

And Illyria? Brilliant. She was hilarious. "I'd like to keep Spike as my pet." Spike getting his ass kicked equals quality entertainment, folks.

 

[Big Bad]

- ::devil::Big Bad ::devil:: here, just thought I'd give my two-cents on last nite's episode.

-First off"¦..Amy Acker is a god. I can say that I always liked the character Fred, since day one. I thought that she would be a good addition to the A-team, and still to this day I love the character Fred and like how she contributed to the team's cause. But until the introduction of Illyria, if anyone had asked me what I thought of Amy Acker's acting abilities/powers compared to the other actors of the show, I would have probably said that Amy's acting skills were"¦.ok. But that's all changed since Joss made Illyria, and last nite's episode made me want to repent for my foolish thoughts. All of Illyria's lines were good, but I thought these were her best:

"I've been hitting the half-breed"¦"¦he makes noises"
"I would like to keep Spike as a pet"
"You grow warm? This one is lusting after me." ( ::drool:: I have to admit that I would be warming up to Illyria too if I saw her in that suit ::drool:: )
" {Hits Angel across room} He does not follow you anymore."

Amy was truly on fire last nite, and I'm actually hoping (like many others are) that if by some miracle that we do get a spin-off it will be about Illyria. I can just picture it now: Illyria kicking butts and taking names, Wes being her guide in all things human, and Spike being her pet and getting tossed across the room by Illryia from time to time....man that would be awsome.

-Anyway on to the episode, it was awesome. I laughed and enjoyed every single moment of this fine masterpiece. From the beginning when Angel told Wes that he'd get Spike to "test" Illyria, to the look on Angel's face when Connor said "I have to take care of my family"¦.I learned that from my father"(probably not the exact quote, but hopefully close enough-lol). Even seeing Gunn for those few scenes were good, cause just seeing him turn down the offer to get out so he could suffer some more made me almost want to cry"¦..ok maybe I was just really sad. Last nite episode is a clear example of why the WB executives responsible for canceling Angel are"¦"¦"¦..well a lot of nasty words and stuff.

-Aside from all of my ranting and raving I have two questions about last nite's episode that hopefully someone on this board will be willing/able to answer:

1) I remember (probably wrong though) the warlock saying that if anyone who's close to the magic box when destroyed would get their memories back(assuming they had memories that were false). So are Lorne and Gunn exempt since they weren't in close proximity when the magic box was destroyed, or do they get their memories back regardless of their position? Another reason why I'm asking this is Angel at the end asks Connor what is he going to tell his parents, but if their memories are fabricated just like the A-Team, shouldn't they have gotten their past memories of not having a son named Connor as well when the magic box was destroyed?

2) From the test(lol) that were conducted I can assume that Ilyria's powers are just super strength and time-manipulation, correct?

-All in all, last nite episode will probably go down as one of the top 5 episodes of this season. Can't wait til next week for the episode.


(Off-Topic): After my VCR had finished recording the show, I went and picked up my god-brother who never could understand why I would "waste my time" watching Angel and literally held him down and made him sit there and watch the whole thing"¦"¦"¦"¦.he was easily converted by the beautiful quality of the show, the violence, and the alluring magic that is Illyria's body suit. I feel sorry for him cause now he's in love with the show, but only has 4 more episodes left to enjoy. I have the 1st season on dvd so I let him borrow it, but he already finished watching all of them last nite and is bugging me for more-lol.

 

[KaneLover0410]

As for Connor, I think that the reason he is choosing to leave things with Angel behind him is that he has finally found the stable family that he had always wished for. He had always resented his father for being unable to provide one for him, and I think that he can finally forgive Angel because Angel has finally provided him with the aspect of his life that he was missing.

Hi, I'm new here, but I thought I'd share some of my opinions...even if y'all don't know me! LOL I agree with RandyGiles (LOVE that name...love that EP!!!) in that he just wants to keep his perfect stable family intact.

I do wonder, also, if Gunn's and Lorne's memories will be returned, due to their proximity to the box.

I have LOVED Illyria since she so heartbreakingly arrived, and I'm glad Amy gets to show off her acting chops. I SO miss Fred, though! I hope that Illyria will find some more Fred in her soon.

I had NEVER liked Connor when he was on before, but I absolutely adored him last night. He wasn't the mopey, adolescent, bitter young man...he was well-adjusted, easy-going and FUNNY. I loved it!

And of course, I miss Lindsey, but that's just 'cuz I love my eye candy! LOL

This WAS one of the best eps this season. I can't WAIT for next week...I can't believe the monkeys at the WB cancelled this show!!! Grrrrrrr!

XOX

Jenn

 

[slayerpower]

Good episode, though not great. I think it mostly had to do with the Sahjhan/Connor battle. I needed more.

-Loved Connor, so not annoying!
-More Lorne and Harmony, please!
-Spike was funny, if useless in this episode.
-Stupid Wesley, well it's your own fault!
-Yay, Gunn, for refusing Hamilton offer!

 

[xtrustno1x]

I'm curious...does anyone blame Wesley for what he did?...Or do you think, at least in his mind, his actions were justified?..

 

[Xander]

Angel's sig was cool, dunno if we've seen it before though.

Anyway, I dont think Lorne and Gunns memories will be returned to them as they weren't close, but then how did Connors get back to him? I also dont think Wes will tell them but I hope he doesn't mope again. I think in his mind his actions were justified, but so was stealing Connor.

(Side bar, Bid Bad. He got through 22 episodes in one night?)

Amy was great and it was nice to see her doing other things and I'm glad she's getting to fight like she wanted but damn I want Fred back. Its kinda as much as I want Illyria so its a toughie. I was thinking that in the finale they could break the deal and go back to end of season four and Fred would be back, maybe I'm just hoping for anything now.

I was thinking when Illyria said "I would like to keep Spike as a pet" that would pop up on screen names across the land. So who did?

Other things (I've just seen this episode and I'm forgetting already). Ah yes, Connor. Well seing him only in season three when he was a cute little baby I can say he was okay now, but has an odd shaped head. I'll think of other stuff later.

--edit--

Just watched the trailer for next weeks. I wanna see it now a week away is too long. But on the other hand so few weeks left.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Hangin It Up

Angel's sig was cool, dunno if we've seen it before though.

Anyway, I dont think Lorne and Gunns memories will be returned to them as they weren't close, but then how did Connors get back to him? I also dont think Wes will tell them but I hope he doesn't mope again. I think in his mind his actions were justified, but so was stealing Connor.

(Side bar, Bid Bad. He got through 22 episodes in one night?)

Amy was great and it was nice to see her doing other things and I'm glad she's getting to fight like she wanted but damn I want Fred back. Its kinda as much as I want Illyria so its a toughie. I was thinking that in the finale they could break the deal and go back to end of season four and Fred would be back, maybe I'm just hoping for anything now.

I was thinking when Illyria said "I would like to keep Spike as a pet" that would pop up on screen names across the land. So who did?

Other things (I've just seen this episode and I'm forgetting already). Ah yes, Connor. Well seing him only in season three when he was a cute little baby I can say he was okay now, but has an odd shaped head. I'll think of other stuff later.

--edit--

Just watched the trailer for next weeks. I wanna see it now a week away is too long. But on the other hand so few weeks left.

After last night's episode of ANGEL, I've decided to end my viewing of Season 5. That's it for me. When the season first started, I was in great anticipation on how ME would resolve the issues of S4's finale and Spike's move to the show. The first half of the season, aside from one or two episodes, did not disappoint me at all. I really enjoyed it. But things went downhill in the second half, especially from "A Hole in the World" until now. Some of the episodes have been outstanding, but I realized that I do not like how the season's direction was going. ANGEL was fast becoming the THE ILLYRIA SHOW, and I could see that Amy Acker was taking over the show from David Boreanaz. The Shanshu prophecy arc was discarded. The mindwipe arc seems to be ending in some kind of anti-climax and Whedon seems fixated with the Fred/Illyria character.

So, I'm hanging it up. "Origins" will be the last ANGEL episode I will view. I hope that the rest of you will enjoy the remaining season.

 

[Happy]

1) I remember (probably wrong though) the warlock saying that if anyone who's close to the magic box when destroyed would get their memories back(assuming they had memories that were false). So are Lorne and Gunn exempt since they weren't in close proximity when the magic box was destroyed, or do they get their memories back regardless of their position? Another reason why I'm asking this is Angel at the end asks Connor what is he going to tell his parents, but if their memories are fabricated just like the A-Team, shouldn't they have gotten their past memories of not having a son named Connor as well when the magic box was destroyed?

Well, Connor suggested, at the end, that his parents still had their false memories intact. So Gunn and Lorne should as well. Illyria, Wes and Connor seemed to be close enough to be effected by the 'mystical window' breaking, and that's probably about it.

2) From the test(lol) that were conducted I can assume that Ilyria's powers are just super strength and time-manipulation, correct?

All Spike discovered was strength and limited time manipulation. Is that all there is? Maybe, maybe not. Illyria doesn't seem to be a 'show-off'. Mostly she seemed to be knocking Spike around the room for her own amusement, not to satisfy his testing. So really, there could have an array of powers that she possesses, but didn't care to use.

You know whats annoying? That Connor wasn't annoying. He comes back, isn't a dweeb, then leaves. Season four Cordy stunk (but then she was possessed... so I forgive her that) then she came back and was a great character again... and she left too. It's almost cruel. They're parading all sorts of nice little 'could've beens' in our faces then yanking them away.

ANGEL was fast becoming the THE ILLYRIA SHOW, and I could see that Amy Acker was taking over the show from David Boreanaz.

I couldn't disagree more. Illyria has only really been around for three episodes and was a minor part in all execept one (where they set the character up). Underneath was more about Lindsey with only a few scenes of Illyria where she did little. Origin was about Connor and giving Angel real closure with him.

The Shanshu prophecy arc was discarded.

As far as the shanshu prophesy... it's rarely mentioned in any season. It's never been a huge part of the show, it's just mentioned when appropriate. Lindsey says an apocalypse is coming, perhaps if Angel prevents it he will shanshu, or perhaps he won't. If not he'll wait for the next apocalypse and perhaps that will be the one. Shanshu is the light at the end of the tunnel. It's hope in the bottom of Pandora's Box. It's not the Holy Grail, to be quested for and won. It's more like saint-hood... to be earned through other things. If the show suddenly became about Angel trying to Shanshu it would blow all that.

 

[Big Bad]

Sorry to go off topic, but to answer AshSan's question:

Yeah my god-brother actually finished 22 eps in one night (more or less). He called me at my job this morning around 10am and said that he had already finsihed watching them and he would come by my house when I got off of work so he could give it back to me. At first I was like WTF?!, but he told me that he had didn't have anything to do today so he wasn't worried about having to go to sleep earlier or anything like that. And since he liked the epsiode from last night he wanted to see if the first season was as just as good. So he said that he watched the first 4 disc, then went to sleep and then woke up early this morning to watch the other 2. So now he's bugging me to buy the rest of the seasons so he can watch them....but I'm kinda out of money right now, so his new obssession will have to wait for a while-lol. Hopefully I'll be able to convince him to buy the other seasons that I don't have.

🙂 And thank you to everyone else who tried to answer my 2 questions 🙂

Guess I'll just have to wait til next episode to see if Lorne and Gunn got their memories back

 

[SlayersDestiny]

This was one cool episode!! I really didnt think I would like Conner coming back , but it was totally cool the way they tied up his story. He knows who he is and what he is... I got a tear when he told Angel he learned it all from his father (I feel like that was his way of telling Angel thank you for the sacrifice he made). Illyria was absolutely hilarious with Spike. I am actually starting to like her. Gunn's decision to stay in the "hell dimension" as an act of atonement needs to be dealt with. Overall it was an awesome ep, cant wait to see just how it will all play out.

 

[Blackarachnia]

This was like the best episode ever... okay, maybe I'm a little overreacting, but still, it was very good.

I loved the new Connor, I liked him before, but he's much much cooler now. I know there's a lot of people, who didn't like him before, but I guess this episode should've made them all do a 180.

Illyria was also great, her dynamic with Spike and Wes is great. I'm sort of glad Fred died.

One question, what was it Hammilton asked Gunn in that dimension, before Gunn put on the amulet, I didn't hear it properly?

Hamilton told Gunn he had an offer for him - to get out of his hell. But Gunn refused to listen and just asked for his necklace back.
And good for him. He should be atoning. And no more deals, dude!!!

I also love Illyria. And her scenes with spike were priceless. They are so cool together. I think the best line in any Angel eve was "I would like to keep Spike as MY pet" and when she threw his clipboard after him...had to rewind 3 times I was laughing so hard.

And I also never really liked Connor but I loved him last night. I have new respect for Vincent.

And...about time Angel realized that leaving Wes alone with Illyria was a really bad idea. I loved that Wes, again, had to question Angel, as he should have, and now he knows. I would be pretty upset if I suspected that a friend who I trusted had tampered with my memories. As Illyria pointed out, in large part, we are just the sum total of our memories and experiences. And when Willow did it to Tara, it broke them up.

I didn't expect to like this ep as much as I did. It was just - almost perfect. Can't wait for next week - an Illyria centric episode.

 

[Allison]

Loved the episode. And I loved the happy, college boy Conner. Even better was the way he left at the end, rather than going off on Angel and blaming him for everything gone wrong, etc.

And wow... Illyria VS. Spike - such great scenes.

But I'm sorry, it's actually getting more and more difficult for me to watch Angel simply because of my hate for Weasley. I love Angel, but if there's anything I could change about the show, it would be him. Oh well. Can't have it all.

 

[Willow03]

This episode was really good. Connor coming back was really cool, it was so weird seeing him all proper and different, going to college?

Hamilton told Gunn he had an offer for him - to get out of his hell. But Gunn refused to listen and just asked for his necklace back.
And good for him. He should be atoning. And no more deals, dude!!!

yeah thats true, good for him. But I feel bad for him I mean I don't think he should be tortured like that for what he did...although it was pretty bad. I hope they find some way to bring him back, the AI team is dwindling.

The scenes with Illyria and Spike were hilarious, I loved spikes line "and you need to tell me how it feels so I can write it down on my clipboard"...lol, for some reason I thought that was hilarious....

 

[Kuznya]

This is in my top 10 episodes of angel. Mostly because it "resolves" the conner thing that has always bothered me. His final line to Angel couldnt of been more perfect.

"You do what you have too to take care of your family. I learned that from my father."

Conner knows who he is where he came from and that angel is his father. Best of all he recogonizes what his father did for him and appreciates it.

Gunn and Lorne will not have their memories back they were not near the cube. This also explains why his "parents" still think he is their son.

I loved this episode cant wait for the last 4.

 

[PiperMaroon25]

Oh man, I freaking love Illyria. I love the character Fred and I was sad when she died, but Illyria is so cool. Her "I'd like to keep Spike as my pet" comment was priceless. "I've been hitting the half-breed. He makes noise." *LMAO* In fact, pretty much any scene she was in tonight was good. Too bad we'll never get to see her relationship with Spike and Wesley grow. Kudos to Amy Acker for shining as Illyria.

Loved that they brought Sahjahn back. Even though the appearance was brief.

I never was a fan of Connor but I actually liked him in this episode. He was so cute and likeable.

Loved the montage they put together, great selection on ME's part.

Loved the little bit we saw of Gunn. You have to wonder how much of his rejection was from learning his lesson about deals with the devil and how much was from grief and guilt.

*sighs happily* I loved this episode and I can't wait for the final four.

 

[MentPatient]

"This one is lusting after me"

"Sorry, the outfit - I guess I just have a thing for older women"

"They were supposed to fix that"

hehe this part was funny.

Connor obviously doesnt want to act like his old self. He likes who he is now, and maybe he is just repressing the memory of Cordy. Since Angel and co. are so well off he may be thinking the same thing for Cordy, plus we dont know whats going through his head right now.

I was wondering why he didn't attack angel once his memory came back... wesley must feel bad because he remembers everything that he's done to angel...

hehe i think the best part was illyria vs spike, hehe he got his ass kicked
"don't worry i'll break her in" - spike
"she's not a whore, spike" - wesley

 

[Faithy]

hehe i think the best part was illyria vs spike, hehe he got his ass kicked
"don't worry i'll break her in" - spike
"she's not a whore, spike" - wesley

I believe the quote was "she's not a HORSE Spike."
it goes along more with the "breaking her in" comment. Just thought I'd clarify that..
I may be wrong, I don't have this episode on tape, but I am pretty sure he didn't say whore...

 

[nerd4hire]

Has anyone gone frame by frame through the montage? There's one frame of Angel (I think it is) standing in front of what looks like a statue of Mayor MacCheese from the MacDonalds commercials. What's that from? It looks familiar, but I can't place it. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? (please don't answer, "rarely if ever")

 

[PiperMaroon25]

I believe the quote was “she’s not a HORSE Spike.”
it goes along more with the “breaking her in” comment. Just thought I’d clarify that..
I may be wrong, I don’t have this episode on tape, but I am pretty sure he didn’t say whore...

Wes said "She's not a horse, Spike." You're right 😉