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Discussion of 7.08 "Sleeper" - Aired 11/19/02 (UPN-US)

Cordy_Chase

Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.
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Sineya
Most likely, either the First Evil was able to deaden the area in Spike's brain that would respond to the chip's charge, much like a surgeon can deaden an area so that the patient doesn't feel the scalpel cutting him, or, since Spike had no actual knowledge of what he was doing, whatever triggered the chip wasn't ever activated.
Makes sense, we are made to believe that The First is the highest and most ancient power of evil--or lower power maybe (hehe) which means it should be able to do just about anything.
 

Charmander

Potential
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Spike was staying with Xander?

Turned vampires always seem kind of shallow; there never seems to be any dilemma about being turned or made immortal, they just seem to immediately go with it.
 

gite63

Gone
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Sineya
Spike and Anya really had chemistry! Everytime those two were together, they were great. And Spike, bravely resisting Anya's advance... :)

The vampire's deaths in this episode were cool - the one at the Bronze, and those killed by Buffy in the basement: PAF, PAF, PAF, PAF! Dusted in a roll. Sorry, ma'am, but it's my job! :D

Oh, and Spike. Great, heartbreaking episode. :(

No, not the chip! Not the chip, dammit. You honestly think I'd go to the end of the underworld and back to get my soul and then— Buffy, I can barely live with what I did. It haunts me. All of it. If you think that I would add to the body count now, you are crazy.

Oh, God, no, please. I need that. I can't cry the soul out of me. It won't come. I killed, and I can feel 'em. I can feel every one of them.


 

Give Us A Kiss

Fuffy Apologist
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2,656
Sineya
Why is Buffy awake at 4:30 AM ??? That's a time were most of us are still sound asleep...

Spike :mad:

Who is in disguise ??? o_O

Buffy, the pain chip doesn't work with a soul...

It was kind of a picnic...

Buffy, hell happened...

Anya, why don't you watch TV or something ???

Anya :mad:

Spike sleeps in the nude ;)

Spike :eek:

Sex ??? o_O

Anya :mad:

Buffy, you won't find him...

Spike :mad:

Spike got busted... ;)

That was the first evil, not Buffy :eek:

Spike, I don't buy it...

Spike, don't play games...

Willow has a point...

Anya is right, computers are morons... :rolleyes:

Xander, it's not worth it...

Spike, could be because you sired her...

Why does Spike calls people 'love' ???

Fighting during a concert...:rolleyes:

Spike is a Billy Idol wannabee...but I haven't been able to figure out from who Billy Idol stole his looks from...

So Spike had no memory of doing those things ??? o_O

Good thing Spike is coming clean about this :)

So that song triggers Spike ??? o_O

At least he snapped out of it :D

Spike, he's messing with your head...

Poor Spike :(

Giles :eek:

Next time: Looks like they got Andrew too...
 

Priceless

Scooby
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There is no bad in this episode! This one is about truth and lies, how we can distinguish between them and why we lie to ourselves and others and how we are programmed to believe certain things. The First has told it's tales to the scoobies and now they had to discern the truth of them. Dawn is convinced she was told the truth, because she is programmed to believe her mother wouldn't lie to her, whereas Willow, Xander and Buffy all need more proof.

The scene between Buffy and Spike in Xander's apartment is great. Spike shows concern that she had to kill someone she'd known. Buffy doesn't reveal the whole truth to Spike about Holden, and Spike doesn't tell Buffy he's been killing again, though we the audience have seen it happen.

Anya and Spike together have great chemistry and are fun. Spike grabbing her arm is really threatening, but once Anya lies to him about her reasons for being there he becomes almost scared of her. I do like that Anya calls him William, though I'm not really sure why.

Buffy as The First confronting Spike is so disorientating, not only for Spike. He doesn't understand what's happening and neither do we. It's quite chilling when First/Buffy says 'There's my guy'.

Love the scene between Buffy and Spike in his bedroom. He doesn't believe he can kill, he accuses Buffy of jealousy, he's angry she can't see that it's the soul, not the chip that stops him killing, and he got the soul for her. He's adamant he has not tasted human blood. Buffy doesn't know what to believe and her response to the accusation of jealousy seems a bit weak 'Don't flatter yourself' :) It's a beautiful scene, with neither of them knowing the truth, but by the end they both need to find proof.

Aimee Mann plays Pavlovs Bells at the Bronze, a comment on the theme that we are all programmed to react to certain stimulus in certain ways, was nicely used to intercut with the fight Spike has on the balcony. I don't think this is just about the trigger, but also that he has been programmed over the last few years to fight his own kind. He earlier denied the chip played any part in his present state, but I think this scene shows that to be another lie (rationalisation?)

Spike eventually remembers the truth, although it really isn't, and tells Buffy that she was right and he is killing again. It's the taste of Buffy's blood that forces him to remember everything he's done. Buffy realises there is something else going on here, and this truth is actually only partly true. Spike accepts his punishment but Buffy understands now that he was being used and had no choice in his actions.

We're left with another lie, when we see a Bringer surely killing Giles. Great ending, leaving the audience shocked and unsure of what's to become of our Watcher.

Loved this episode, it's so disorientating, we don't know the truth of anything. It also shows that Spike does feel guilt about what he's done. He's horrified at killing these people and he would readill accept death as his punishment.

Once again Xander stands out as the MVS (most valuable scoobie), he's having a great S7 so far. He's great with Buffy and Anya, smart and funny and kind. He's being 'objective' guy, so mature in his suit, carrying his briefcase, but he's absolutely at his best when he's trying to stop Spike leave and gets punched in the face :)
 

Mr Trick

Scooby
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Re-watched this tonight and have to say I think its a bit of a "Sleeper" episode, see what I did there!:p

The twist with Spike and the First was well handled I thought. There was good tension throughout the episode. The scene with Aimee Mann at the Bronze was cool too:)
 

Dora

Scooby
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It was crap like this episode that made the second half of S7 so poor , forget about Buffy, her friends, her mission , lets concentrate on Spike....only if he is not fighting Buffy anymore or shagging her so there is no story for him lets make something up
Why would the first need Spike she had hundreds of Bringers and uber vamps
Why did she trigger Spike ?When Buffy, Spike etc was in the cellar.. all we got was it's not time yet, time for what Christmas Shopping
Why was the first getting Spike burying his victims for what ?
If he felt he guilty for murdering 10 + people and should die ,why put it on Buffy he could have walked out in the Sunshine
No the real problem with 7 in the later episodes after CWDP and probably MN coming back as Show runner, was the overload of Spike with no real Story
 

Mr Trick

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It was crap like this episode that made the second half of S7 so poor , forget about Buffy, her friends, her mission , lets concentrate on Spike....only if he is not fighting Buffy anymore or shagging her so there is no story for him lets make something up
Why would the first need Spike she had hundreds of Bringers and uber vamps
Why did she trigger Spike ?When Buffy, Spike etc was in the cellar.. all we got was it's not time yet, time for what Christmas Shopping
Why was the first getting Spike burying his victims for what ?
If he felt he guilty for murdering 10 + people and should die ,why put it on Buffy he could have walked out in the Sunshine
No the real problem with 7 in the later episodes after CWDP and probably MN coming back as Show runner, was the overload of Spike with no real Story
Question. Why do people think that the Scoobies should always be a tight nit group just because they have been from the start. From S4 onwards I think the writers wanted to show that when you grow up thinks change and you don't always spend as much time with friends that you used to and you try different things. Like Willow did becoming a Witch. In a way getting closer to Spike was a change for Buffy. I don't have an issue it. They spent plenty of time focusing on Buffy and Angel in the early seasons.

To answer your question about Spike burying the bodies. I can't say for sure. Maybe if The First were getting Spike to do their bidding they figured it would be able to keep it under wraps if he desposed of the bodies.
 

Priceless

Scooby
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It was crap like this episode that made the second half of S7 so poor , forget about Buffy, her friends, her mission , lets concentrate on Spike....only if he is not fighting Buffy anymore or shagging her so there is no story for him lets make something up
Why would the first need Spike she had hundreds of Bringers and uber vamps
Why did she trigger Spike ?When Buffy, Spike etc was in the cellar.. all we got was it's not time yet, time for what Christmas Shopping
Why was the first getting Spike burying his victims for what ?
If he felt he guilty for murdering 10 + people and should die ,why put it on Buffy he could have walked out in the Sunshine
No the real problem with 7 in the later episodes after CWDP and probably MN coming back as Show runner, was the overload of Spike with no real Story
Buffy's mission was to fight evil, and she found out that Spike was siring again it was her duty to find out the truth of it. Spike is an integeral part of BtVS, he's a main character, so I don't find it surprising that there are episodes about him and his relationship with Buffy.

The First needs Spike because he's close to Buffy, he's controllable because of his deep seated issues with his mother, and he's a vampire so that makes him strong and something The First can morph into. Spike is actually pretty perfect for TF to control.

I think he wanted Spike to sire vampires for several reasons. Firstly for Spike to be on human blood again, making him more dangerous. It also created more vampires who would be a distraction to Buffy while TF picked off the potentials. It was also a test, to see that Spike was controllable and the trigger worked.

I agree that if Spike felt guilty he could have walked into the sunshine, and if it had been daylight he might have done that. But Buffy believed in him. She figured out something was controlling him and refused to dust him because of that (my Spuffy heart says she's in love with him too, but hey that's just my bias speaking) Spike will keep going as long as Buffy believes in him, no matter how he feels about himself.
 

Dora

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Buffy's mission was to fight evil, and she found out that Spike was siring again it was her duty to find out the truth of it. Spike is an integeral part of BtVS, he's a main character, so I don't find it surprising that there are episodes about him and his relationship with Buffy.

The First needs Spike because he's close to Buffy, he's controllable because of his deep seated issues with his mother, and he's a vampire so that makes him strong and something The First can morph into. Spike is actually pretty perfect for TF to control.

I think he wanted Spike to sire vampires for several reasons. Firstly for Spike to be on human blood again, making him more dangerous. It also created more vampires who would be a distraction to Buffy while TF picked off the potentials. It was also a test, to see that Spike was controllable and the trigger worked.

I agree that if Spike felt guilty he could have walked into the sunshine, and if it had been daylight he might have done that. But Buffy believed in him. She figured out something was controlling him and refused to dust him because of that (my Spuffy heart says she's in love with him too, but hey that's just my bias speaking) Spike will keep going as long as Buffy believes in him, no matter how he feels about himself.
The first must have had Spike killing when he was in the school cellar it had no means of Knowing Buffy would take Spike back after the AR
The potentials had not arrived at this time
Why was there no explanation , not time yet ?
If the first wanted Buffy dead the uber vamp in bring on the night when Buffy was unconscious under the rouble could have easily killed her or Cane in Empty places again unconscious in the school no the first wanted Buffy alive
Why did not the first trigger Angle when it wanted Buffy dead in Amends it was the first who returned Angel from hell
When Angel was a main Character and Buffy love interest they had him assisting with the core four plans using his Knowledge and Muscle, where the last seasons of Buffy they shoe horned Spike into A or the leading role and to get Buffy to rely on Spike 100% they had to destroyed the characters of people Buffy used to rely on like Giles, which I feel was detriment to the whole show
Buffy character was made to look a pathetic needy running around all the time after her attempted rapist and abuser , she dumped Characters like Xander who without super powers had stood by her from the start...... Is that good strong feminism that Buffy rely so much on Spike her abuser I am not sure
 

Priceless

Scooby
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The first must have had Spike killing when he was in the school cellar it had no means of Knowing Buffy would take Spike back after the AR
The potentials had not arrived at this time
Why was there no explanation , not time yet ?
If the first wanted Buffy dead the uber vamp in bring on the night when Buffy was unconscious under the rouble could have easily killed her or Cane in Empty places again unconscious in the school no the first wanted Buffy alive
Why did not the first trigger Angle when it wanted Buffy dead in Amends it was the first who returned Angel from hell
When Angel was a main Character and Buffy love interest they had him assisting with the core four plans using his Knowledge and Muscle, where the last seasons of Buffy they shoe horned Spike into A or the leading role and to get Buffy to rely on Spike 100% they had to destroyed the characters of people Buffy used to rely on like Giles, which I feel was detriment to the whole show
Buffy character was made to look a pathetic needy running around all the time after her attempted rapist and abuser , she dumped Characters like Xander who without super powers had stood by her from the start...... Is that good strong feminism that Buffy rely so much on Spike her abuser I am not sure
Spike did have times of lucidity while living in the school basement, as in Beneath You, so I agree TF probably had the trigger in place from the time Spike came back to Sunnydale after having his soul returned. Even if Buffy hadn't accepted him back, Spike would still have been very useful in just creating vampires to keep Buffy busy. If was actually TF's downfall that Buffy did accept Spike and want to help him.

Also agree that TF wanted Buffy alive, until it had killed most/all of the potentials and had built up it's Turok Han army.

TF that we see in Amends had it's focus on Angel, not Buffy or the Slayer line. It's only when Buffy comes back is S6 that TF focuses on Buffy and is able to see a ways of destroying the Slayer line.

We do see more of Spike in S7, but I don't think of him as shoehorned into the story. I like seeing him there, I think he fits perfectly as Buffy's second in command and her main supporter. I understand he's not to everyone's tastes, but story wise I think he fits perfectly. Who else could have played that role? Willow is the strongest person available, but she's got emotional issues of her own and is deeply afraid of using her powers.

It's personal opinion of course, but I don't agree that Buffy looked pathetic. I think she looked like a young woman coming to terms with who she is and what she has to do. I think she's at her strongest in S7 and its this version of Buffy that's my favourite.
 

spikenbuffy

"Why can't I stay"
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I love the scene when Aimee Mann plays in Bronze, stops when the vampire falls on the ground in dust and then re plays lol :D. The female singer does know that vampires exist :D.
 

Mr Trick

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I love the scene when Aimee Mann plays in Bronze, stops when the vampire falls on the ground in dust and then re plays lol :D. The female singer does know that vampires exist :D.
Aimee Mann in Buffy is just music to my ears! Forgot about that scene. Need to re-watch this episode.
 

Stake fodder

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I like how this episode allowed some of the characters to display bravery. Xander stands between Spike and the door, even though he knows Spike might be killing again. Anya investigates his room for clues, with him sleeping right there. (And why didn't it occur to Buffy and Xander to do that before Spike came home?)

Finally, when they were discussing Spike within his hearing at the end, I was reminded of how Willow stood up for herself in similar situations: "Hey, sitting right here!" So even she has more gumption than Spike at this point.
 
DeadlyDuo
DeadlyDuo
To be fair, Spike had been through a lot and had just discovered he was being forced to kill without knowing it.
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