Discussion of 8.15 "Wolves at the Gate Part 4" - Released 04/06/08 (Dark Horse)

[Superstar]

I like Satsu reckon she could be one tough Slayer but not keen on whole lesbian thing with them as it just isnt Buffy. And I am fed up with Buffy sleeping with people willy nilly!

Oh, I don't know about that.
I'm pretty sure Buffy and Faith had some strong vibes going on, especially on the dance floor.
And the way she was telling Xander and Willow about her slaying activities in Bad Girls sounds alot like someone who keeps on talking about their brand new significant other. Add to that Faith coming by and drawing a little heart (which the writer specifically chose as it was something from his own past to underscore the attraction). Xander even calls her incessant talking an "Ode to Faith".

And you really have to wonder about the Buffy and Faith shared dreamy thing - in Faith's bedroom with a female cat who then changes to Faith in bed (not sure about the exact imagery there) and possibly foreshadowing Miss Kitty Fantastico as the subliminal link. I also suspect Buffy had a bit of curiosity after learning about Willow and Tara.

As for willy nilly... I think at the moment nilly on the willy is what's going on.

 

[Blondie Bear]

Oh, I don't know about that.
I'm pretty sure Buffy and Faith had some strong vibes going on, especially on the dance floor.

I saw that as two girls having fun, recognizing that their rapport drew the boys in, not as they themselves being attracted to each other.

And the way she was telling Xander and Willow about her slaying activities in Bad Girls sounds alot like someone who keeps on talking about their brand new significant other.

Or like someone who's been essentially alone for years finally finding someone who could share her duties and calling and truly understand her.

Add to that Faith coming by and drawing a little heart (which the writer specifically chose as it was something from his own past to underscore the attraction). Xander even calls her incessant talking an "Ode to Faith".

Where does Petrie say that? Also, it seemed to be code, considering that she then put a stake through that heart.

And you really have to wonder about the Buffy and Faith shared dreamy thing - in Faith's bedroom with a female cat who then changes to Faith in bed (not sure about the exact imagery there) and possibly foreshadowing Miss Kitty Fantastico as the subliminal link.

In Freudian symbology, small animals represent siblings. In this dream, the cat represents Faith. I did a whole thing on this dream for my Master's thesis.

 

[nerd4hire]

Where does Petrie say that? Also, it seemed to be code, considering that she then put a stake through that heart.

I don't know about the heart thing, but there's another supposed quote from Petrie people often talk about, but are never able to offer. It's supposed to say the writers intentionally peppered Season 3 with lesbian subtext.

I've never been able to find it, but apparently Petrie did say say something in the DVD commentary for Bad Girls. I've never heard it, but here's a Whedonesque poster talking about it.

Another quite sexy series of scenes was in "Bad Girls" when Faith and Buffy were big with the flirting, sexual tension, sweaty dancing, etc. And the fact that Doug Petrie noticed this and pointed it out in his DVD commentary was also a big plus. (He credited Eliza Dushku for ramping up the lesbian subtext, whereas Eliza in interviews has credited Sarah more for doing so.)

Whedonesque : Comments on 2428 : Buffy/Spike scene voted 40th sexiest moment ever

That's the closest I've ever come to finding the much mentioned Doug Petrie lesbian subtext quote. I'd love to read it though if anybody has a better representation. So this heart one, does Petrie say he was inserting subtext there other than "let's go slay vampires"?

 

[Joyce Summers]

Well I do remember Doug Petrie saying in an interview that Faith allowed them to sexualize Slaying more than they could have ever done without her. It's one of the interviews on the season 3 disc I believe and he says 'When Faith is talking about Slaying she might be talking about sex...'.

But beyond that I have no relevant quotes. Off the top of my head anyway.....

 

[white avenger]

I always looked at it this way: Spike is Angel without all of the obvious brooding and inhibitions, and Faith is Buffy basically the same way. That's why, to me at least, the only way any kind of workable relationship between Buffy and Spike could be shown would be for Buffy to lose most or all of her inhibitions, or for Spike to gain a lot. Thank god it went the way it did, because I, for one, would most definitely not have seen Buffy and Spike share a low fat yogurt. (can you just imagine an episode titled "Melted," replacing "Smashed"?)

Obviously, given the recent developments with Satsu, Buffy has lost, or at least suppressed even more of her inhibitions, so the possibility for the Faith/Buffy thing has moved a step closer to possibility (of course, the fact that they aren't at the moment even friends sort of cancels out that step, so ...). Bottom Line: the Chosen Two aren't likely to become a couple any time in the foreseeable future.

 

[Blondie Bear]

Superstar disagrees: I would say small animals symbolize children, not siblings. But whatever.

Hey, I didn't make it up. Freud did.

 

[CharmedSlayer85]

I don't see what the big deal about Buffy sleeping with Satsu is, everybody saying it's so out of character, as if we're the one that created her, besides all of Joss' characters seem to go a little gay, remember Angel and Spike had sex at least once.

Now onto the comic I thought the idea of the giant Dawn robot was the dumbest thing in the entire run of the comic series so far. When I read that I'm like you've got to be kidding me. Also again if Dawn doesn't have giant sized strength, how in the hell is she taking on and defeating a giant sized robot that more than likely has giant sized strength.

Also another thing that bugs me is why is it that Xander has been with Buffy for about 8 years now and has not learned any special skills. I mean Willow learned to become a very powerful witch, Dawn started learning how to fight and began learning more and more about demonology, and everybody else like Anya and Giles already had knowledge to add to the mix, however Xander never learned or really took the initiative to learn anything. I mean even Cordelia learned how to fight when she went over to Team Angel. Wesley who in Season Three was a bitch became a bad ass by the end of the 5th season of Angel, but Xander still probably couldn't really take on one vamp without some major back-up.

 

[gilesfan1980]

I'm going to enjoy seeing Faith and Giles' reaction to Buffy's newfound sexual identity... she got a kick out of seeing Tara and Willow together...

 

[The Ferg]

I really liked this issue, but it was kinda melodramatic. Willow/JapGirlVamp, Dawn/Mecha-Dawn (yes, I liked it), and Dracula's slaughtering of everyone was pretty cool. So I'd give it: 7/10 (not very good with ratings)
Also, I'm lovin Batsu. I didn't at first, but I'm really into it now.
OH! The whole scene with Buffy and Willow contemplating about catching Satsu was hilarious!



Does anyone understand Willow's ordeal?

 

[willow23]

I liked the Dawn-Bot and she made me laugh quite a bit. Drew Goddard has definitely got the comedy aspect of the comics down, much like his episodes of Buffy and Angel. Though with the whole Batsu thing, I am just really thrown for a loop. I mean she isn't gay and I just feel like the character of Buffy, at least from the show, would not have slept with Satsu the first time, let alone again. The whole thing is a little bit odd. I mean with Willow it made sense and was drawn out over time. Her character actually, you know, discovered her sexuality in a way that fit character-wise. I agree with all those who have said they feel like they don't know Buffy anymore.

The issue itself was rushed and underwhelming, though that is a problem I have with most of the issues. The comics real less real and, though I really enjoy them, that is a problem. Additionally, the comics, so far, lack the emotional grandeur of the series. The show dealt with heavy emotional and philosophical concerns or as Joss said "the universal angst of life" and I do not see that in the comics, which is unfortunate.

I like them, I just don't feel both an emotional and an intellectual tie with them.

 

[white avenger]

I don't see what the big deal about Buffy sleeping with Satsu is, everybody saying it's so out of character, as if we're the one that created her, besides all of Joss' characters seem to go a little gay, remember Angel and Spike had sex at least once.




Now onto the comic I thought the idea of the giant Dawn robot was the dumbest thing in the entire run of the comic series so far. When I read that I'm like you've got to be kidding me. Also again if Dawn doesn't have giant sized strength, how in the hell is she taking on and defeating a giant sized robot that more than likely has giant sized strength.




Also another thing that bugs me is why is it that Xander has been with Buffy for about 8 years now and has not learned any special skills. I mean Willow learned to become a very powerful witch, Dawn started learning how to fight and began learning more and more about demonology, and everybody else like Anya and Giles already had knowledge to add to the mix, however Xander never learned or really took the initiative to learn anything. I mean even Cordelia learned how to fight when she went over to Team Angel. Wesley who in Season Three was a bitch became a bad ass by the end of the 5th season of Angel, but Xander still probably couldn't really take on one vamp without some major back-up.

It's true that Joss' characters react the way he wants them to, and if he wants Buffy to "experiment" then that's exactly what she will do. In fact, given the almost total female population at the castle combined with its isolation and the stirring of youthful hormones, Buffy and Satsu most likely aren't the only ones conducting that particular experiment.

As for Dawn's strength, even though as a giant she doesn't have the proportionate strength that she did as a normal sized girl, her strength is still enormous, and maybe the robot just wasn't that well constructed.


Xander has improved in his fighting skills over the years, and is no doubt more skilled with weapons than he was in the beginning. (Plus the fact that he is very good with a wrecking ball, as Glory can attest,)

 

[gilesfan1980]

I guess I'm just loving every issue because it's just simply great to me to have Buffy back, period. One of my favorite moments is when Dracula gives the sword to Xander. After Xander kills the vamp, 3 sequences occur when Buffy orders the rest of the vampires to be killed. In each one, Dracula gets darker and darker until it's all black by the time Xander falls into Buffy's hug. It was just a nice little detail that caught me.

 

[bufsum]

The writing was great, I LOVE Drew Goddard!

Honestly, I have felt that there has been something off about the comic book series. I feel like there has been a disconnect, and this is the first installment that felt right to me. This was in large part to the connection (finally) between B/W/X. Also, I am continously annoyed at the fact that Giles is estranged from the group.

And, the fact that Buffy is bisexual... well, isn't it obvious? She's hopeless in relationships (as we've all seen... and enjoyed for years), and has (stupidly) alienated herself from her family, she is reaching out to someone powerful and beautiful, and sleeping with them. ...not the first time... won't be the last. BUT-at least we're celebrating lesbianism. :rolleyes0 Please.

Mecha-Dawn shows up, and I'm like "Oh c'mon now...seriously...", then I'm like "Well yeah, but to be fair, you are laughing your ass off. Turn the page let's see what happens next".

Dawn is big, I get it... and I did chuckle when she came out all "Fear, Itself" style. However, I am so over her. The writers had trouble knowing what to do with Dawn when she was on the screen, and they are having the same troubles in the comic book. Please shrink her down, already. Let her have sex with some boy her age, and stay normal.

Blondie Bear: Thanks for your counter on Superstar's post... you took the thoughts right out of my head... well, I didn't know the Freud part, but the rest... my thoughts! Futhermore, it's understandable for their to be curiosity, but there was no action. There my have been subtext, but there was no text, and this still seemed out of place for Buffy, nonetheless.

And, speaking of... where's Faith? I miss her... let's intergrate her into the fold... or just have her rouge around for Giles some more.

Also, is there a point to Renee's death... something deeper that the writers might be saying to us? Or... is ever metaphor beating us over the head, via 6th season. OR... are there no metaphors to draw from. This feels like not much continuty.

I greatly dislike Kennedy, but I feel like the writers are dangling her in front of us on a string. Just get it over with... introduce her, open that (annoying) can of worms.

 

[alexa]

I guess I'm just loving every issue because it's just simply great to me to have Buffy back, period. One of my favorite moments is when Dracula gives the sword to Xander. After Xander kills the vamp, 3 sequences occur when Buffy orders the rest of the vampires to be killed. In each one, Dracula gets darker and darker until it's all black by the time Xander falls into Buffy's hug. It was just a nice little detail that caught me.

That was my favourite moment also. Besides Buffy and Willow falling.
Guess I enjoyed the issue, but the Satsu/Buffy thing still just seems off for me.
Glad Dracula wasn't the one who died! And I think I liked the Dawn parts, be good if they gave her a story that had some meaning though. But yep, sadly this was my least favourite arc.. sucks because I love Goddard.

 

[MrGordo]

Could someone please explain the whole Mecha Dawn thing to me? its very confusing! where did it come from?
Apart from that I enjoyed this arc, even though it was a little over the top, but I guess that was planned because after all, it is a comic book now, and it's kinda meant to be over the top.

 

[alexa]

Could someone please explain the whole Mecha Dawn thing to me? its very confusing! where did it come from?
Apart from that I enjoyed this arc, even though it was a little over the top, but I guess that was planned because after all, it is a comic book now, and it's kinda meant to be over the top.

I think we're meant to assume that the bad guys knew they had a giant teenager, so they got some smarter bad guys to make a robot version of her. Unless I missed something..

I'm not sure if I found that funny or stupid 😛

 

[Vampmogs2]

I really dug this issue.

I loved the Buffy stuff. It was wonderful how she told everyone to surround Xander and initially didn't want to leave him, and I loved how he dropped to his knees and she comforted him in the end. It was fantastic.

And after this issue I officially liked Buffy/Satsu. Such a mature break up for Buffy it was really sweet and nice and shows she's grown up, she's capable of a nice break-up. It was a very nice scene between the both of them, and I actually didn't even notice it was girl-on-girl now, just seems natural for Buffy to me.

And no buttmonkey Xander which rocked. I really enjoyed how he made sure Dracula wouldn't call him 'manservant' anymore, I totally believed him that he would kill the vamp in his sleep if he called him it again.

I can also happily fanwank the story of Xander writing to Dracula as Andrew embellishing the truth. Nowhere in 'Wolves At The Gate' did we see Xander even reciprocate Dracula's affection for him. He dreaded going to Dracula's castle, hated being under his thrall and then threatened him at the end. So I enjoyed Drac's twisted affection of him because it wasn't OOC for Xander at all.

Plus Drac was badass in this issue. 😀

And Willow.. very interesting story for her, what on earth has she been up to? Looks very sinister and it was creepy at the end when you see her summoning Savuki.

A great issue IMO, I dug it all. Mecha Dawn was hilarious, we were never meant to take that seriously.

 

[white avenger]

Regarding the results of this arc in that Dracula in now "just an ordinary vampire," do you think that he will try to regain his extra powers? He obviously knows how to, since that was the initial source of the problems with the Japanese vampires.

Also, considering the (I think) friendly banter between Drac and Xander at the end, do you think that the two of them actually are more or less friends?

 

[Vampmogs2]

Also, considering the (I think) friendly banter between Drac and Xander at the end, do you think that the two of them actually are more or less friends?

Nah. I think Xander was being quite serious when he said he'd kill him in his sleep. I could see him being more or less reasonable to Dracula now that was being nice to him in regards to Renee's death but that's it. I think it was semi-jokey in the way Xander lit Spike's fag for him in 'Spiral.' He still hated Spike's guts but he just did a small favour.

Drac had affection for him but I never saw it reciprocated and really there's not a great deal of reason why it should be. Dracula placed Xander under his thrall for months, if we're going by 'Antique' that meant having him attack Buffy (which we know Xander would never do on his own) and be the 'buttmonkey' Xander fears of being. He dreaded going to see Dracula again in 'Wolves At The Gate' and felt ashamed of being placed under his thrall.

Not to mention that Dracula was horrible to Willow, threatened to slit Renee's throat and said he wished Buffy and all the slayers were dead. Xander's not the type to love anyone who makes these comments, especially about Buffy and Willow and I suspect now, the now deceased Renee.

 

[nerd4hire]

Would a Xander Dracula ship be Xancula?

On the Mecha Dawn silliness, I saw the latest Indiana Jones recently. In it Indy climbs into a lead lined fridge to survive a nuclear blast. He's thrown in it about 5 miles. He also grabs a snake to pull himself out of quicksand. Dumb right? I knew stuff like that (and there's more of it) was dumb when I saw it, yet I still liked the show.

What I don't get is how people can be dismissing this issue based on Mecha Dawn, yet I know the same people will be talking about how hilarious they think Him is (I mean come on, a rocket launcher?) or maybe listing Something Blue on their top ten list, or talking about Tabula Rasa like that rubber head shark guy didn't happen.

There's times when silliness can be forgiven, times when it actually works, and times when it's just too disruptive. Myself I forgave the Mecha Dawn bit on the grounds of hilarity and some good buried Dawn and Andrew character exposure.