Discussion of 8.27 "Retreat Part 2" - Released 8/5/09 (Dark Horse)
- Thread starter Tranquillity
- Start date
Primal Slayer
Did I Fall Asleep?
It was a good issue, nice having Oz back even though it totally wasnt how I imagined. ANd he has a kid now!?! Talk about a WTF moment. But one thing I was really happy about...the clothes. Finally they have improved. Willow is out of those annoying dresses and back into Willow clothes, hats and all.
Though I am getting a bit tired of Twilight, just bring on the finale so we can find out who he is and why Riley is following him.
Though I am getting a bit tired of Twilight, just bring on the finale so we can find out who he is and why Riley is following him.
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
I don't think he is really following him. Did you notice how he kept trying to steer him away from investigating that "spike" (ha) in Central Asia? And how this resulted in Twilight executing one of his few competent henchmen?
He's sabotaging Twilight's efforts.
GrimsWatcher
Potential
Not as good as Retreat Part 1, but still good. Still better than anything in the Predator and Preys arc...well except maybe Living Doll. I think the art is at it's worst in this issue, I can't remember it being this unfinished and sloppy.
Jeanty must be rushing to meet deadline or something. Still, this arc has me excited, and the month long waits are getting annoying more and more.
Jeanty must be rushing to meet deadline or something. Still, this arc has me excited, and the month long waits are getting annoying more and more.
Completely agree with one of the readers in the back of the issue. Imagine if you wern't following these forums and the endless talk of characters being reintroduced...it does get ridiculous just how much the whole season has been about revealing characters. They really have lost the plot in places, I honestly don't know where to picture them anymore. I have a very separate verison of S1-7 and S8 in my mind, even if I do force myself to treat them as canon.
Anyway...K, so Oz has a baby. Ok, no problem, I dont mind him moving on, even if it does seem a little fast, I suppose thats the way these things work. I would have just expected a little more dialogue between him and Will but what we had felt very similar to when he returned mid S4...to the point, typical Oz.
I just find myself lacking interest more and more. I dont care about shock horror cliffhangers.... maybe if I yell real loud a Whedon writer will hear me... I DONT CARE ABOUT CLIFFHANGERS!!!... I get I'm not watching a TV show... but the endless cliffhangers and half-reveals do not leave me wanting more...they leave me asking why this S8 is considered canon.
Ok... so this episode we get the 'big reveal' that Twilight knows Buffy well. Indeed, we even get treated as idiots by having another character make sure we 'got that'... "He knows Buffy?"... I suppose thats where my problems lie...I just want more story.. I want the feel of an episode. If other comics can do that for me, so can Buffy, especially considering it already has the backstory.. all it needs is a plot. Come on guys, if your losing strong fans... your losing the rest as well.
I could almost see Buffy shot dead in the next 'episode'.... Not due to Whedons inability to keep characters alive, just for the shock factor; consequences be damned.
Anyway...K, so Oz has a baby. Ok, no problem, I dont mind him moving on, even if it does seem a little fast, I suppose thats the way these things work. I would have just expected a little more dialogue between him and Will but what we had felt very similar to when he returned mid S4...to the point, typical Oz.
I just find myself lacking interest more and more. I dont care about shock horror cliffhangers.... maybe if I yell real loud a Whedon writer will hear me... I DONT CARE ABOUT CLIFFHANGERS!!!... I get I'm not watching a TV show... but the endless cliffhangers and half-reveals do not leave me wanting more...they leave me asking why this S8 is considered canon.
Ok... so this episode we get the 'big reveal' that Twilight knows Buffy well. Indeed, we even get treated as idiots by having another character make sure we 'got that'... "He knows Buffy?"... I suppose thats where my problems lie...I just want more story.. I want the feel of an episode. If other comics can do that for me, so can Buffy, especially considering it already has the backstory.. all it needs is a plot. Come on guys, if your losing strong fans... your losing the rest as well.
I could almost see Buffy shot dead in the next 'episode'.... Not due to Whedons inability to keep characters alive, just for the shock factor; consequences be damned.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
[No message]
I don't see why people make such a big deal about buffy characters being in a buffy comic. They say that Amy, Warren, Riley, Ethan Rayne, and Oz are all "cameos" put in for shock value, but I just don't agree with that.
Amy was a recurring character throughout seasons 1-7, no reason why we shouldn't see her in s8.
Warren was in the show heavilly in s6, and appeared as the first in s7. Why not see him one season later?
Ethan Rayne is always managing to show up in Buffy, and Giles is always managing to kick his ass.
I'm pretty sure the last time we saw Riley was s6, so why not 2 seasons later?
Lastly, we haven't seen OZ for quite some time. I can agree with that, but he's playing a major part in the plot of s8, not some cameo.
I'd also like to add that I don't think people would say anything about the old characters being in s8 if the show was televised and aired months after s7. There's no reason why Buffy characters shouldn't be in a Buffy comic, and I'm getting a little tired of all the whining about it.
Amy was a recurring character throughout seasons 1-7, no reason why we shouldn't see her in s8.
Warren was in the show heavilly in s6, and appeared as the first in s7. Why not see him one season later?
Ethan Rayne is always managing to show up in Buffy, and Giles is always managing to kick his ass.
I'm pretty sure the last time we saw Riley was s6, so why not 2 seasons later?
Lastly, we haven't seen OZ for quite some time. I can agree with that, but he's playing a major part in the plot of s8, not some cameo.
I'd also like to add that I don't think people would say anything about the old characters being in s8 if the show was televised and aired months after s7. There's no reason why Buffy characters shouldn't be in a Buffy comic, and I'm getting a little tired of all the whining about it.
Primal Slayer
Did I Fall Asleep?
I think a main problem is Warren. The guy is suppose to be dead..yet he is alive. And I dont believe they ever said how he was brought back to life unless im forgetting.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
[No message]
The problem isn't that the cameos are the shock factor, the cameos are annoying because of how many there are. Think about it...whos left? You're already on to the B-list cameos now.
'Cause he's dead for one! 😛
Sorry if your getting tired, though you don't have to listen to me. Interestingly, I've hardly heard this discussed at all. Though I don't frequent the S8 forum to be fair.
I will definately disagree with you if you think the mass of characters we have seen in the comic would work on screen. The comic relies on people understanding the show almost entirely. You imagine how much backstory would be needed for all these different characters? Or how silly it would all seem seeing a massive reunion of most all characters, Buffy and Angel combined? Oz, Rayne, Warren, Amy, Riley, Dracula, Spike, Angel, Faith, Fray, Kennedy, Rona, Andrew, (lets not count the flashback with all the old scoobies back), Robin Wood, and ohh, Harmony. Not a bit much??
Dont get me wrong either, I love the comic. As its own entity. More and more, everyday I separate it from what I see as the show, and I'm ok with that, it works much better when you appreciate it as a wilder version of Buffy and not a continuation. The two simply can't mesh it seems... robo dawn, giant dawn, and talking trees is my reasoning.
Tranquillity
That'll put marzipan in your pie plate bingo
I quite enjoyed the Twilight bits in this issue, mainly because they kept saying the word 'Spike' over and over. I know, I'm shallow 🙂
white avenger
If you're shallow, then so am I. And, seriously, what logical reason would there be to have the characters say "Spike" 4 times within 3 frames if it weren't intentional?
Ruminator
Townie
This.
I sort of (ok, I DID) stop buying the comics about a year ago (right after Wolves at the Gate) for this very reason, because I felt that, though the comic book was enjoyable on its own merits, its connection to the continuity fo the show was too... forced is the word I would use..... to get me to like it enough to continue spending money on it. I honestly came to believe that in order to really like Season 8 you'd have to not only really like Buffy, but also really, really like comic books as well. And they just aren't my thing. So, I follow Season 8 through recaps and summation online cause, well, I still want to know what happens.
I think that also speaks directly to why some people (myself included) have a problem with all the previous TV show characters showing up in the comic book. It's the kind of thing that just wouldn't have happened on the show, largely for real world issues that involve running a show (scheduling and money for example). The ability of the comic book to do this is not, necessarily, a bad thing, but it separates it enough from the concepts of the seven years of television to make the disparity jarring for some.
Tranquillity
That'll put marzipan in your pie plate bingo
I thought exactly the same thing. I just hope it's leading somewhere (and hopefully its not that Spike is Twilight) What with the repeated use of 'Spike' in this issue and the recent e-comic, they don't seem to want us to forget about him🙂
VisionGuy
Oh Plerr
I got this in the mail yesterday. Not one of my favorites. Didn't really like the whole Oz having a baby thing. Although it's about time somebody in the Buffyverse had one who wasn't a hell spawn. The whole Twilight knows Buffy thing was interesting. I really thought we would get the big reveal of who he is this issue, but we did not. The repeated usage of the word SPIKE was interesting. I know that's not just a coincidence.
Crashing Doors
Potential
I just finished this one (well, earlier tonight anyway) and I think it's getting a bit better. You can tell that something big is gonna happen soon... I mean we see Warren, Amy, Riley, and Twilight (a lot more than we've seen him before, at least it seems like that) and they're trying desperately to track Buffy and the gang.
I agree about the cameos being a little bit much... On one side though, the writers are probably thinking that the fans want to see certain characters so they're bringing people back, but they're maybe bringing back too many. And I say "maybe" because, who knows, something might happen later in the issue that makes it necessary for so many of them to be back. Maybe.
Wasn't Warren's return described sort of; Amy was tracking him when Dark Willow was tracking down the Trio, and when Will flayed Warren, Amy magicked him out of there... in a way that somehow allowed him to live? Even at that, it seems like a lot of trouble to go through. Although skinless Warren is a cool comic book villain.
I agree about the cameos being a little bit much... On one side though, the writers are probably thinking that the fans want to see certain characters so they're bringing people back, but they're maybe bringing back too many. And I say "maybe" because, who knows, something might happen later in the issue that makes it necessary for so many of them to be back. Maybe.
Wasn't Warren's return described sort of; Amy was tracking him when Dark Willow was tracking down the Trio, and when Will flayed Warren, Amy magicked him out of there... in a way that somehow allowed him to live? Even at that, it seems like a lot of trouble to go through. Although skinless Warren is a cool comic book villain.
I really enjoyed this issue, not just for the obvious reason that Oz (and what happened to him since S4) is so heavily featured but I also liked that the Twilight-plot finally moves forward. Didn't like the whole "Spike" word dropping and that Twilight deemed it important to mention several times that he knows Buffy. It was like constantly being hit on the head. With a hammer. Yes, we know that Twilight knows Buffy. Reveal. Soon.
I was a tad surprised he had a baby (and the Scoobies' reaction was hilarious. Xander's interaction with the dog throughout was cute) though I agree with VisionGuy that it was about time. That he seems so genuinely comfortable with his life right now is great to see.
Now I wonder if we get a reveal that being a werewolf is hereditary.
... The art of this issue though ... it was horrible. I still don't really know if that brunette was supposed to be Faith or Dawn. Bay's comment of "I understand. No one likes you" seemed to be best suited to be directed at Faith but she didn't seem like Faith. And later it kind of seemed to shift between Faith- and Dawn-like comments. Can anyone clear that up?
Though, of course, this poses the question on why they brought Riley back. 😛
I was a tad surprised he had a baby (and the Scoobies' reaction was hilarious. Xander's interaction with the dog throughout was cute) though I agree with VisionGuy that it was about time. That he seems so genuinely comfortable with his life right now is great to see.
Now I wonder if we get a reveal that being a werewolf is hereditary.
... The art of this issue though ... it was horrible. I still don't really know if that brunette was supposed to be Faith or Dawn. Bay's comment of "I understand. No one likes you" seemed to be best suited to be directed at Faith but she didn't seem like Faith. And later it kind of seemed to shift between Faith- and Dawn-like comments. Can anyone clear that up?
Though, of course, this poses the question on why they brought Riley back. 😛
C
Crashing Doors
[No message]
GrimsWatcher
Potential
Mumrik, when she said no one likes you, I think she meant slayers in general. The public doesn't like slayers right now. And definitely the worst art so far in the comics yet.
CharmedSlayer85
Potential
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2007
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- 402
I can't understand why people are so disappointed with the reoccuring characters. And yeah maybe it wouldn't happen on the show because one the actors might not have wanted to come back or there were schedule conflicts, for example Joss wanted to bring Tara back from the dead during Season 7, but the idea had to be axed because Amber Benson couldn't make it.
Also Buffy's world takes place in more than just Sunnydale, it takes place around the whole world, so why wouldn't there be cameos from other characters if she's going around the whole world.
I do agree with some people that the idea of talking trees and giant Dawn's and robot Dawn's are a little too much, however it's not like they didn't have robots on the show before, and I believe they did talk about giants on the show and how demons were much bigger, and finally in terms of the talking trees you can chalk it up to the fact that just like the animal kingdom, in different parts of the world there are different types of demons. For example some of the demons you saw on Angel you didn't see in Sunnydale, because LA was a much bigger city.
Also Buffy's world takes place in more than just Sunnydale, it takes place around the whole world, so why wouldn't there be cameos from other characters if she's going around the whole world.
I do agree with some people that the idea of talking trees and giant Dawn's and robot Dawn's are a little too much, however it's not like they didn't have robots on the show before, and I believe they did talk about giants on the show and how demons were much bigger, and finally in terms of the talking trees you can chalk it up to the fact that just like the animal kingdom, in different parts of the world there are different types of demons. For example some of the demons you saw on Angel you didn't see in Sunnydale, because LA was a much bigger city.
cranetimothyj
Townie
Isn't there going to be a major battle about the end of magic. It makes sense that ALL the magical beings are going to be involved, that's why all these characters are showing up.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
This does make sense.
Why, oh why must we think that Spike might be Twilight? Why would Joss do that?
I don't like this at all. Not one bit. I have been looking forward to Spike's return - but not like that, as the villian. So much for his character development, I guess. If Spike turns out to be Twilight I m going to be very upset.
I don't really think we have much to worry about as far as Spike being Twilight.
1) He's in love with Buffy. Why would he want to kill her?
2) He's not as strong as Buffy. Twilight, essentially, beat Buffy's ass in beautiful sunset.
3) He can't fly.
4) If the age of magic were to end, Spike would "die" too, since it's only magic that's keeping him "alive."
5) If Spike were to somehow have lost his soul and suddenly became evil again, he's not the kind of villain that would hide behind a mask. When spike was a big bad back in the day, he was a huge show-off. He's offed two slayers, for God's sake, and he made sure everybody knew it. Spike's the kind of villain that would've showed up at the castle in issue five or something and Buffy would've been all "OMG SPIKE YOU'RE ALIVE" and he would've pretended to be in love with her for like an arc, and then we would've seen him light up a cigarette and start beating some slayer ass. He likes credit. Masks don't allow that.
Plus, I think Joss knows that if he were to resurrect the series just to make Spike a bad guy and do the whole "I lost my soul now I'm all evil again," dance that he's already done with Angel, then fans wouldn't really go along with it and he'd probably leave a lot of people angry. Not the good kind of angry where you're like, "Man that sucks but it's made the story so much more rich," but the bad kind where you say, "Man, you've ruined one of my favorite shows, and I never really thought that was possible."
1) He's in love with Buffy. Why would he want to kill her?
2) He's not as strong as Buffy. Twilight, essentially, beat Buffy's ass in beautiful sunset.
3) He can't fly.
4) If the age of magic were to end, Spike would "die" too, since it's only magic that's keeping him "alive."
5) If Spike were to somehow have lost his soul and suddenly became evil again, he's not the kind of villain that would hide behind a mask. When spike was a big bad back in the day, he was a huge show-off. He's offed two slayers, for God's sake, and he made sure everybody knew it. Spike's the kind of villain that would've showed up at the castle in issue five or something and Buffy would've been all "OMG SPIKE YOU'RE ALIVE" and he would've pretended to be in love with her for like an arc, and then we would've seen him light up a cigarette and start beating some slayer ass. He likes credit. Masks don't allow that.
Plus, I think Joss knows that if he were to resurrect the series just to make Spike a bad guy and do the whole "I lost my soul now I'm all evil again," dance that he's already done with Angel, then fans wouldn't really go along with it and he'd probably leave a lot of people angry. Not the good kind of angry where you're like, "Man that sucks but it's made the story so much more rich," but the bad kind where you say, "Man, you've ruined one of my favorite shows, and I never really thought that was possible."
