Discussion of 8.30 "Retreat Part 5" - Released 11/04/09 (Dark Horse)

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I completely agree about Bander. It seems almost like incest to me, too, although I know many disagree. But whatever. I guess we will have to see how it plays out.

I mean, it was only implied that they were getting "romantic" in this issue - a subtextual thing - thats just how I read it. And maybe it will stay that way. Tell me what you think once you read it yourself.

 

[MinwaraYana]

I haven't read it yet because I read TPB version which it will come out in March. 🙁

About Bander, I agree with WA too. The problem is, when it started, it's hard to stop. Buffy started to have romantic feeling toward Xander. I don't see how they will write her to stop feeling that way anytime soon. Maybe she and Xander will really get together. If that happens...poor Dawnie. 🙁

 

[sosa lola]

I really feel bad for poor Dawn, I wanna get into Xander's head, see what he's thinking. I really like the idea about Buffy falling for Xander after he moved on -while I like Buffy/Xander more than Dawn/Xander, I'd love if Xander rejected Buffy for Dawn. Buffy in Xander's shoes would be awesome.

I'll disagree about the incest thing. Best friends for years doesn't read as brother/sister, especially when Xander used to be in love with Buffy, and Buffy was aware of those feelings.


~*~*~

Hey, just read the issue. I don't get the disappointement, I thought it was amazing! I loved every bit of it, also this is probably my favorite Buffy-war, I LOVE that they lost, it's way worst than Dirty Girls. God how I wish this issue is on TV with the actors and the music and the blood and sad-Buffy.

Highlights of the issue:

- That sad panel with Oz, Bay and their baby wishing Buffy and her friends stayed away from them.

- Buffy catching Willow before she fell.

-The bodies of dead girls, werewolves, soldiers -the goddesses not siding with both teams.

- "We didn't bring help. We brought death." Wonderful job by Jeanty, great drawing of Buffy, captured the likeness and mood quite perfectly.

- Dawn shouting military orders.

- "So heavy"

Weak Buffy!

- Buffy and Willow ordering girls to run.

- The Buffy/Riley/Xander scene is nothing like the Buffy/Xander/Spike scene. Buffy made sure Riley is safe inside, getting treated and comfortable, then she suddenly remembers Xander and wonders if he's okay. I didn't see anything wrong with this, Buffy hugging Xander is on impulse, she was controlled by her emotions -I actually loved this scene, especially the close up, I can see Nicky and Sarah hugging each other so easily.

- I loved the Dawn bit right after it as well. "Buffy?" "Buffy?"

- Buffy crying and holding Riley's hand. Aww!

- Loved Oz' reply to Riley that all these women are amazing, not just Buffy.

- "They all are." Perfect Oz likeness.

- Satsu saving Buffy was perfect.

- The Scoobies are captured, Buffy's expression at the sight of them losing, all this was great.

 

[white avenger]

Something about this issue and the one previous: We've now got werewolves who can not only control their change, but also stay in control of themselves after the change. When did that happen? I must've missed it somewhere. Up until now, I thought that Oz was there in Tibet so that he could keep the transformation from happening, not do it at will. Did I miss an issue somewhere?

 

[Don]

Bay says, "They shouldn't have come here. We gave them everything." Oz thinks she's talking about the slayers or the goddesses, but I think she's talking about the Twilight army. Bay's been hostile since day 1, and I think it makes sense that she's referring to delivering a group of powerless slayers to Twilight on a silver platter. I don't think Oz knew anything about this, but there's no reason to assume that Bay didn't. Or, maybe she's referring to something she'd helped Twilight out with earlier. The point is, that if she's referring to the Slayers, the statement doesn't make sense. "They shouldn't have come here," that makes sense, but not when followed by, "We gave them everything."
The same is true of the Goddesses. "They shouldn't have come here," makes sense, but not when followed by, 'We gave them everything." If "they shouldn't have come here because we gave them everything" is the logic we're going to follow, here, then it makes perfect sense that the Goddesses came. They had a deal, magic for protection.
However, when applied to the Twilight army, both parts of the statement make sense, if we read a bit into Bay's character.

Riley's a good guy, great, cool, but why would Dawn ask if he's a prisoner? How would Dawn know that Riley is in league with Twilight? Unless Buffy just came out and told her one day, but I feel like that would've been something to put into the comics. It seems like Dawn would be more surprised to see Riley at all than anything, considering nobody's explicitly seen him with Twilight. For that matter, why is nobody super-surprised to see Riley at all? Maybe it's because the last time anybody except Buffy saw him was season 6 and he was still active in tactical fighting. Either way, it was kind of a disappointing reveal for him.

Also, I just re-read all 5 parts, and we learn in part 2 that Bay killed Monroe one night when he invaded the temple. However, in part 4 Monroe is alive and fighting. In part 2 Bay says that she made Monroe a martyr, so it's kind of hard to argue that all she did was wound him.

And finally, the flying B. I don't know. I'm glad she's got her powers back, really, but things are getting kind of comic-booky. I know it's a comic book... but... for real?

Also, Dawn didn't die, and that sucks a whole lot.

 

[Anya2012]

I've yet to get it, but I hate the sound of Bander...and Dander also. He's like a brother to both Buffy and Dawn! Why did they come down this road with them?? I can imagine the Bangel and Spuffy shippers frothing at the mouth over this.

 

[sosa lola]

I've yet to get it, but I hate the sound of Bander...and Dander also. He's like a brother to both Buffy and Dawn! Why did they come down this road with them?? I can imagine the Bangel and Spuffy shippers frothing at the mouth over this.

Joyce didn't give birth to Xander, so he's not breaking the law. 🙂 It's perfectly okay for him to be attracted to both or one of them, same goes for Buffy and Dawn.

I'm glad I'm not a shipper -except I ship Spander, heh. I'm a big fan of Spuffy and I really wish they'd show us if Buffy knows about Spike being alive or not, but if Buffy decides to move on to another man, I won't blame her. Spike didn't come to her when he was brought back, and personally I think she doesn't know he's back. Ooooh, if Buffy gets with Xander and then Spike shows up... conflict!!!! *goes to write that fanfic*

 

[sosa lola]

Five agrees: Well we all know how that fic's going to end... Buffy alone and Spander reunited ! 😛

LOL! To be honest, I was gonna make it end with Spuffy. But now that you mention it...

 

[Don]

It bothered me that Scott Allie said, "did we piss some people off?" (I'm paraphrasing) at the end of the lettercol. I understand that characters have to do things that are... uncharacteristic of themselves at times, but since when has the point of writing been to piss off the reader? Season 8 just seems to be a big "let's see how bad we can piss the readers off, because we know these people are a bunch of joss-bots who'll accept anything he says, taking even the most ridiculous plot developments as bitter-sweet, or necessary evils in the grand scheme of the whedonverse."
Don't get me wrong, Season 8's had some great moments-- The Chain, the entire Faith arc, the tragic rise and fall of Renee--pretty much all of Wolves at the Gate, actually (remember when they set that vamp on fire in the box?!)--the return of Fray and Willow's future death at the hands of Buffy, and of course, the toon issue, Dawn getting turned into a giant (etc) cuz she's triflin'.
But it just seems like as soon as vamps went public... which did piss me off quite a bit, not because I'm not ready for change but because of the amount of anti-vampire sentiment that we've had in Buffy up til now, and because, well... vampires are bad and everybody knows it and, unless there's some big spell at the end... i mean... we're not idiots. There's no reason to accept that and it's made the whole situation really cheap.
The point of these comics should just be to give us more Buffy, not deliberately try to piss off readers, and then rub their noses in it to make sure they're pissed off.

 

[white avenger]

Joyce didn't give birth to Xander, so he's not breaking the law. 🙂 It's perfectly okay for him to be attracted to both or one of them, same goes for Buffy and Dawn.

I'm glad I'm not a shipper -except I ship Spander, heh. I'm a big fan of Spuffy and I really wish they'd show us if Buffy knows about Spike being alive or not, but if Buffy decides to move on to another man, I won't blame her. Spike didn't come to her when he was brought back, and personally I think she doesn't know he's back. Ooooh, if Buffy gets with Xander and then Spike shows up... conflict!!!! *goes to write that fanfic*

As far as that goes, Cordy didn't give birth to Connor, either, and quite a few people use the "pseudo-incest" argument as their major dislike for that relationship (along with the fact that Cordy was on the way to being, if she wasn't already, Angel's girlfriend, at least on that show. This isn't a Bangel/Cangel debate) and Xander's relationship with Dawn was never the same as his relationship with Buffy. If it were, he would have felt uncomfortable about her crush on him instead of jealous when he found out that she had "moved on" to a crush on Spike. Granted, Xander, for his part, had a crush on Buffy in the first, and maybe the second, season, but he also moved on to Cordelia, and then to Anya (The catalyst to that was probably Faith introducing him to the joys of sex in Season 3) Throughout all of that time, Buffy obviously never thought of him as anything but a brother, except for the one time when she was under the influence of Amy's spell.

And I also wish that we could get some word one way or the other as to whether Buffy knows whether Spike has returned or not. I had always assumed not, but, given the events in the latest two "Aftermath" issues, she would have to be living under a rock (or maybe an isolated castle in the highlands of Scotland) to not have at least a pretty good idea that he was, indeed, back.

And here's an idea for your fan fiction: Buffy gets with Xander, and Spike shows up WITH ILLYRIA. Now, that could put a whole new twist on everything.

And, finally, how could you break poor Angel's heart by even suggesting Spander when Angel has been carrying a very large torch for his favorite carpenter since he first laid eyes on him? That whole thing with Buffy was just to make Xander jealous.

 

[sosa lola]

As far as that goes, Cordy didn't give birth to Connor, either, and quite a few people use the "pseudo-incest" argument as their major dislike for that relationship.

There's a huge difference between Cordelia/Connor and Buffy/Xander. I'd say Xander/Dawn is way more similar to Cordelia/Conner, because Cordelia had known Connor as a kid, not only that, but she also took care of him as if he was her own. Xander had met Dawn as a ten year old, so I can understand if some fans found the Xander/Dawn relationship icky.

Buffy/Xander is more like Cordelia/Angel. Besides, the second Xander saw Buffy he was attracted to her, his feelings developed throughout the first seasons until he fell in love with her. Buffy was aware of how Xander felt about her, and just because she felt nothing for him doesn't make him fall into the "brother" category. It's gross to think of him as a brother when he had romantic, lusty feelings for her. It's not strange that a woman or a man would grow attached and attracted to a best friend after years of friendship, it happens in real life as well.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I think the romantic relationships in general have been poorly executed. It's not the pairings themselves I necessarily disapprove of, it's that there's been no drum-roll (fans on HIMYM S1 might get the reference). Bangel, Spuffy, Cangel, Twillow, Fresley all had these great huge lead-ins, in some cases YEARS of back-story. Batsu & Dander have just been rush jobs.

I thought as a whole, the Retreat story was very good. Though, I think it was too drawn out. By that I'm not saying a single page was superfluous, but I'd have preferred if each issue was simply longer, so we'd have one issue less, where all of the others are 20% longer.

While I'm a fan of the comics, I do admit that they seem inferior to the TV show. It's interesting, because I think After the Fall and Boys and their Toys would have made a solid first quarter of Angel Season Six. And I just don't think much of Buffy S8 would have been usable on TV. Scope aside, there have been too many tangents and sooo little payoff. I've enjoyed all the arcs except for Predators & Prey, but still, I hope Season Nine is boarded more tightly.

And I really don't think Buffy getting Super-Hero-level Powers will hurt the story too much. I mean, look at Illyria, up until she got zapped, she was far more powerful than Angel, Spike, Buffy & Faith combined, and it didn't really disrupt the story.

---------- Post added at 06:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:04 PM ----------

There's a huge difference between Cordelia/Connor and Buffy/Xander. I'd say Xander/Dawn is way more similar to Cordelia/Conner, because Cordelia had known Connor as a kid, not only that, but she also took care of him as if he was her own. Xander had met Dawn as a ten year old, so I can understand if some fans found the Xander/Dawn relationship icky.

Buffy/Xander is more like Cordelia/Angel. Besides, the second Xander saw Buffy he was attracted to her, his feelings developed throughout the first seasons until he fell in love with her. Buffy was aware of how Xander felt about her, and just because she felt nothing for him doesn't make him fall into the "brother" category. It's gross to think of him as a brother when he had romantic, lusty feelings for her. It's not strange that a woman or a man would grow attached and attracted to a best friend after years of friendship, it happens in real life as well.

Cordelia never was involved with Connor, it was Jasmine 😛

 

[sosa lola]

Batsu & Dander have just been rush jobs.

I disagree about Xander/Dawn, the build up was there since S7. They'd gotten closer to each other, and S8 is filled with subtext between them. Most fans (in another forum maybe) knew the season will go with Xander/Dawn way back in the Fray arc.

I'd say Xander/Dawn had more build up than both Xander/Cordelia and Xander/Anya.

Cordelia never was involved with Connor, it was Jasmine 😛

You're right about that. 🙂

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I disagree about Xander/Dawn, the build up was there since S7. They'd gotten closer to each other, and S8 is filled with subtext between them. Most fans (in another forum maybe) knew the season will go with Xander/Dawn way back in the Fray arc.

Well, personally, I don't think being able to guess a relationship happening is the same as a drum-roll. Cordelia was immediately attracted to Angel back in BS1, as was Xander to her. I'd have made the same criticism if either became heavily involved overnight then too.

I really don't see the familial bond between Xander & Dawn being a precursor to a romance. If that were the case, Angel could have jumped into bed with any member of his team and it would have been expected.

 

[sosa lola]

Well, personally, I don't think being able to guess a relationship happening is the same as a drum-roll. Cordelia was immediately attracted to Angel back in BS1, as was Xander to her. I'd have made the same criticism if either became heavily involved overnight then too.

I really don't see the familial bond between Xander & Dawn being a precursor to a romance. If that were the case, Angel could have jumped into bed with any member of his team and it would have been expected.

Dawn was attracted to Xander in S5, same as Cordelia was attracted to Angel in S2.

There's obvious build up to Xander/Dawn in S8 -I didn't say there were romantic feelings in S7, but that they've grown closer. S8 can't be seen as family closeness, Xander and Dawn had big sexual subtext. They were together most of the time in S8, I thought the build up was gradual and obvious, and I wasn't the only one who thought so.

Honestly, they've got more build up than Xander/Cordelia (who suddenly kissed each other while saying I hate you, Xander was never attracted to Cordelia, it was Jesse who had a thing for her) and Xander/Anya, even more than Xander/Renee.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I think a lot of people were expecting Xander/Cordelia...

I agree that there's been subtext since earlier in S8, but given each Arc is roughly equal to an episode in length...

Not to mention the fact that five sentences of subtext is a far cry from the progression of say Spuffy which had so many nuances, hints, etc. (and I still prefer Bangel)...

 

[Mumrik]

I agree that there's been subtext since earlier in S8, but given each Arc is roughly equal to an episode in length...

Not to mention the fact that five sentences of subtext is a far cry from the progression of say Spuffy which had so many nuances, hints, etc. (and I still prefer Bangel)...

Yeah, well, but it still is a comic book which is a very limited medium. If you wanted to compare the two we'd have six years of subtext before we got any action and that'd be just... boring and unnecessarily drawn-out.

And seeing as a lot of people already expected Dawn/Xander (for example, see this thread) the subtext seems to have been enough.


Now, my thoughts on this issue. I don't know, it was kind of... bland. I expected more closure but maybe I'll be surprised and they're going to blow me away next issue. Though I'm not really sold on the supposed Buffy with full-blown superpowers. I mean, I love superhero comics, I do but all-powerful characters are always a little boring AND I really don't want any of that in my Buffy time. :/

 

[sosa lola]

I think a lot of people were expecting Xander/Cordelia...

I wasn't a fan of the show at that time, but my sister and cousins were thrown by the kiss, they never expected it to happen. They didn't hate it though. Xander/Cordelia was one of the greatest couples in the show.

I agree that there's been subtext since earlier in S8, but given each Arc is roughly equal to an episode in length...

They've been glued to each other the whole season. What's more build up than that?

Not to mention the fact that five sentences of subtext is a far cry from the progression of say Spuffy which had so many nuances, hints, etc. (and I still prefer Bangel)...

Since you're a Bangel fan, can you tell me where's the build up for the ship? In the first two episodes, Buffy appreared mostly annoyed by Angel, he doesn't show up in episode 3, then suddenly in episode 4 she's in love with him.

Personally, I don't care for build up. Not every realtionship should have the Spuffy build up. Buffy/Angel, Xander/Cordelia, Xander/Anya didn't have it and they all were great ships. Ships should be unique in their own way, and Xander/Dawn as characters make sense, seeing as they're both the only normal folks in the supernatural world they're living in.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I wasn't a fan of the show at that time, but my sister and cousins were thrown by the kiss, they never expected it to happen. They didn't hate it though. Xander/Cordelia was one of the greatest couples in the show.



They've been glued to each other the whole season. What's more build up than that?



Since you're a Bangel fan, can you tell me where's the build up for the ship? In the first two episodes, Buffy appreared mostly annoyed by Angel, he doesn't show up in episode 3, then suddenly in episode 4 she's in love with him.

Personally, I don't care for build up. Not every realtionship should have the Spuffy build up. Buffy/Angel, Xander/Cordelia, Xander/Anya didn't have it and they all were great ships. Ships should be unique in their own way, and Xander/Dawn as characters make sense, seeing as they're both the only normal folks in the supernatural world they're living in.

Honestly, the problem probably gets to Mumrik's point. There were subtleties in the actor's portrayals that alluded to attraction, especially in the cases of Bangel & Cander.

In the comic-medium that's lost, and it's a problem, imo. Harmonic Divergence is a good example, with nuanced performances like in Harm's Way, it might have been a hilarious and fun episode. But without Mercedes' bubbly charm, it was just abysmal.

I think the same is true of Dander. I'm sure Nick would have done a bang up job of dropping hints of attraction, but he's not there.

Personally, I think Angel's the only character that benefits from this format since now we hear what he's thinking which is 90% more than he says. The only time we saw that on TV was in Redefinition which was probably the most Angel-centric episode ever.

I know people have been upset with the spin-offs (Spike: After the Fall & Only Human), not their quality, but their tangential nature. But personally, I'd be running at least five books side-by-side, Buffy, Angel, Spike, Faith, and Scoobies. That would've allowed it to be explored in greater length.

 

[Hero]

I was in class today thinking about this issue, because I hate my teacher and have nothing better to do than think about other things. Back to the topic already discussed about Buffy's new powers and where it came from. I started thinking about the season finale of season 4. With the help of the spell, the power of the first slayer and some of the scoobie gang's energies were put into Buffy to make her strong enough to duel Adam. So, wouldn't the thing with the goddess be a repeated story line? Not that I'm complaining. People have also theorized that Buffy is a "super slayer" now with the ability to fly. Is it ok to think that maybe the transfiguration and force field generation shown during the battle with Adam was our first taste of a "super slayer". Or do you think that in both events, these new powers are coming from the Goddesses or Willow, and not past, stronger Slayers.