Discussion of 8.34 "Twilight Part 3" - Released 4/07/10 (Dark Horse)

[citiegal17]

But, if Joss was, as I suspect, the actual one who sent the "We don't trust you," message via Andrew upon retrieval of Dana, then he would still consider Angel, Spike, and everyone associated with Wolfram & Hart to be suspect at best, totally evil at worst, and completely untrustworthy in either case. Plus, Illyria is a HELL GOD, and Giles has had some rather unpleasant experiences with one of those in the past He would no more consider asking her for help than he would consider apologizing to Spike for conspiring with Wood to bring about his murder, despite the fact that Buffy was proven 100% correct in her support of Spike.

I actually liked Andrew Double Crossing Angel then, since Angel had shown the worse judgement ever then, everything he did in season 5 was just selfish. That was probably one of the highlights of the season and it wasn't even one of the major events in the seasons. Season 5 of Angel made me respect Spike more, and dislike Angel more.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

But, if Joss was, as I suspect, the actual one who sent the "We don't trust you," message via Andrew upon retrieval of Dana, then he would still consider Angel, Spike, and everyone associated with Wolfram & Hart to be suspect at best, totally evil at worst, and completely untrustworthy in either case. Plus, Illyria is a HELL GOD, and Giles has had some rather unpleasant experiences with one of those in the past He would no more consider asking her for help than he would consider apologizing to Spike for conspiring with Wood to bring about his murder, despite the fact that Buffy was proven 100% correct in her support of Spike.

World's ending, nothing left to lose.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

But, if Joss was, as I suspect, the actual one who sent the "We don't trust you," message via Andrew upon retrieval of Dana,

(I'm guessing you mistyped and meant Giles?)
Yeah, it seemed more of a Giles type of thing to do. I can't exactly say I blame him (or any of them) for being suspicious of Angel then. At that point when watching the season I was still thinking, "WTF, Angel?"

I wished we'd seen some glimpse of Dana during Season 8.

 

[citiegal17]

If that's the twist, Whedon's a hack. On what planet are we supposed to buy that Angel would want to give birth to a new world order that would kill off humanity? It's just so absurd. I'm not talking your theory here, but just general Twangel-ness...

Well actually I think the prophetcy itself is in a way a red herring, and in prophetcy girl the master specifically states that prophetcy's don't tell you everything. I think Angel has another agenda all together, remeber he wants to end magic, and if we take the prophetcy at face value that would be the oppsite of that. However, by opening the portal it is most likely where he will try to force all demons and magicks into. In Buffy evil people mainly tell the truth, and Angel trying to end magic would not be OOC at all.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Well actually I think the prophetcy itself is in a way a red herring, and in prophetcy girl the master specifically states that prophetcy's don't tell you everything. I think Angel has another agenda all together, remeber he wants to end magic, and if we take the prophetcy at face value that would be the oppsite of that. However, by opening the portal it is most likely where he will try to force all demons and magicks into. In Buffy evil people mainly tell the truth, and Angel trying to end magic would not be OOC at all.

I think you're getting your prophecies mixed up 😉 You have at least three separate one mixed together in there 🙂

 

[citiegal17]

I think you're getting your prophecies mixed up 😉 You have at least three separate one mixed together in there 🙂

Actually I was talking about one prophetcy and the concept of prophetcy's in general. The whole prophetcy just seems absurd at best. For one thing Angel would not be considered the best of his kind if he was a human or vampire for one. As well as the fact Spike would actually be the more evolved vampire with a soul as well, not Angel. Everything that is happening now could still be caused by something else not the universe, and there are more flaws in the prophetcy itself that are contradictory at best. Espcially if you think about Xander comment about Destiny Sex, which Xander is known for being the one who see's things, I trust his judgement more than Angel's at this point.

 

[Kellie Mulder]

Twilight

I've read the issue ( a couple of times really) but it looks and sounds like Angel and Buffy caused a HUUUGE mess for everyone.

And I'm not just saying that because I thought that Angel and Buffy were horrible together (and really, they were--its like Edward and Bella angstfest *and I REALLY DISLIKE Twilight. Horrible.*).

I mean like, they ripped opened a demon dimension!!! By having SEX!!!

So you know something bad is coming...like that scene in Fray where a Slayer faced off against an army of demons and opened a portal that took away everything magic. And you know how that that ended...

:eek2:

Kellie Mulder

 

[Primal Slayer]

Just read this issue and WOW. The Bangel shipper in me is beyond happy that they are together but knows that it isnt really really them inacting this whole sexual escapade and the regular BTVS superfan in me is interested to see where this leads because I know it wont be good.

 

[white avenger]

I think Angel has another agenda all together, remeber he wants to end magic, and if we take the prophetcy at face value that would be the oppsite of that. However, by opening the portal it is most likely where he will try to force all demons and magicks into. In Buffy evil people mainly tell the truth, and Angel trying to end magic would not be OOC at all.

If Angel is, indeed, the actual Big Bad, and does indeed manage to eliminate all of the demons, magic practitioners, and supernatural beings and entities in the world, whether by expelling them into another dimension or just outright killing them, you have to remember that he will be evicting himself, all of the Slayers, and even his own son, all of whom are supernatural creatures, plus all of the harmless and/or friendly demons as well as the evil ones. That's like shooting the entire choir just because the alto section is singing out of harmony. Not even the most rabid Bangel could approve of an action like that.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

If Angel is, indeed, the actual Big Bad, and does indeed manage to eliminate all of the demons, magic practitioners, and supernatural beings and entities in the world, whether by expelling them into another dimension or just outright killing them, you have to remember that he will be evicting himself, all of the Slayers, and even his own son, all of whom are supernatural creatures, plus all of the harmless and/or friendly demons as well as the evil ones. That's like shooting the entire choir just because the alto section is singing out of harmony. Not even the most rabid Bangel could approve of an action like that.

He's not. Scott Allie has been saying for years that Twilight himself isn't the key here...

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

He's not. Scott Allie has been saying for years that Twilight himself isn't the key here...

Yea, Angel's just Twilight's pawn, right? There's something far bigger going on.

 

[white avenger]

Okay, I've finally read it, and the answer is right there, plain as day, blaring out for everyone with eyes to see. If the "After The Fall" part of the "Angel" comic is truly based on Joss' plans, and, therefore, canon, then the Season 8 Angel is either an Alternate Universe copy, a clone, someone using a glamor spell, or the writers and artists just plain made a major boo-boo. At some point during the Angel/Buffy sexathon, look at Angel's right shoulder. Remember his famous tattoo? See it there? Okay, now check back in the final "After The Fall" installment where the minions of the Senior Partners restored LA to its previous state of existence. While they were doing all of that, they also "removed the unsightly tattoo." If Angel lost the tattoo at the end of ATF, then WHY is it back on his shoulder in Season 8?

The simplest answer, other than the boo-boo thing, which I'm ignoring, is that Season 8 Angel AIN'T ATF Angel, and Joss, Dark Horse, and the writers have been playing us like trumpets from the first "accidental" leak about Angel being Twilight up to the present and beyond, if they can get away with it. That's why the people at DH aren't worried about making contradictions to the IDW story line. Anything that DH does is done to and with someone other than IDW's characters. (Angel at least. It may be the genuine Spike coming to tell Buffy and her people about the fake, plus return to the Buffy series permanently. I can hope, anyhow)

It also would explain why this Angel isn't losing his soul after the latest "moment of complete happiness" like he did in Season 2. Phony Angel equals no curse.

Also, on Page 13 (I think. They should number the pages) isn't the Slayer in what looks like the Roaring 20's outfit glowing even more than Buffy and Angel combined?

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Well, considering how many continuity errors we've had within season 8 itself, I'd say basing anything on a discrepancy between it and AtF (put out by two different publishers) is unlikely to pan out, unfortunately.

We've been told straight up that this really is "our" Angel, with no time or alternate universe trickery involved. I doubt they would simply lie about it.

 

[white avenger]

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Comments on this post
Buffy4ever2k10 agrees: Okay now i´m confused. As always. 🙂 Why would the senior partners(again lamest evil demons ever) remove his tattoo?
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As far as I know, no explanation was ever given for removing Angel's tattoo, just the comment that it was done.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

white avenger agrees: Yeah, and how many people have gotten hurt whrn someone said, "Jump. I'll catch you"? (Sorry, just the cynic in me speaking out)

That's exactly why season 8 now has me so worried, not just on a story level but on a meta level as well. More than any other writer, Joss doesn't say "Jump, I'll catch you." He just says "Jump."

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Okay, I've finally read it, and the answer is right there, plain as day, blaring out for everyone with eyes to see. If the "After The Fall" part of the "Angel" comic is truly based on Joss' plans, and, therefore, canon, then the Season 8 Angel is either an Alternate Universe copy, a clone, someone using a glamor spell, or the writers and artists just plain made a major boo-boo. At some point during the Angel/Buffy sexathon, look at Angel's right shoulder. Remember his famous tattoo? See it there? Okay, now check back in the final "After The Fall" installment where the minions of the Senior Partners restored LA to its previous state of existence. While they were doing all of that, they also "removed the unsightly tattoo." If Angel lost the tattoo at the end of ATF, then WHY is it back on his shoulder in Season 8?

Could you scan the panel, or at least post the issue & page #?

I ask because Brian Lynch said early on that Angel's tattoo was removed when he was turned human. If that is the case, Angel's tattoo would be restored along with Angel's vampire.

The simplest answer, other than the boo-boo thing, which I'm ignoring, is that Season 8 Angel AIN'T ATF Angel, and Joss, Dark Horse, and the writers have been playing us like trumpets from the first "accidental" leak about Angel being Twilight up to the present and beyond, if they can get away with it. That's why the people at DH aren't worried about making contradictions to the IDW story line.

Scott Allie rushed to do damage control, and Bill Willingham blasted Joss. Something tells me neither were lying.

Anything that DH does is done to and with someone other than IDW's characters. (Angel at least. It may be the genuine Spike coming to tell Buffy and her people about the fake, plus return to the Buffy series permanently. I can hope, anyhow)

It also would explain why this Angel isn't losing his soul after the latest "moment of complete happiness" like he did in Season 2. Phony Angel equals no curse.

Scott Allie specifically addressed this by saying Angel's invulnerability extends to anchoring his soul. Again, I don't think he's lying.

As I said in response to Georges Jeanty's interview a while back, I don't think these guys would lie to their consumers. Georges said that Twilight was 6ft+, and he was 6ft+ Angel.

Scott Allie says this is the real Angel from our Buffyverse, I believe him. Why? Because he has no reason to lie to his consumers...

I wish you were right, but I'm sure you're wrong.

 

[LilBufBuf]

Scott Allie specifically addressed this by saying Angel's invulnerability extends to anchoring his soul. Again, I don't think he's lying.

Yeah, if Angel's pretty much invincible, I don't know why his powers wouldn't extend to a little gypsy curse that could only suppress the en-souled/human part of him when he was regular vampire Angel. Sunlight, something that could previously destroy him, no longer affects him. The same rules just don't apply. I mean, he's now basically invulnerable to everything else, why wouldn't he be invulnerable to magic that is less powerful than he is?

 

[white avenger]

Yeah, if Angel's pretty much invincible, I don't know why his powers wouldn't extend to a little gypsy curse that could only suppress the en-souled/human part of him when he was regular vampire Angel. Sunlight, something that could previously destroy him, no longer affects him. The same rules just don't apply. I mean, he's now basically invulnerable to everything else, why wouldn't he be invulnerable to magic that is less powerful than he is?

Definitions of invulnerability on the Web:

* having the strength to withstand attack
* the property of being invulnerable; the property of being incapable of being hurt (physically or emotionally)
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* Vulnerability is the susceptibility to physical or emotional injury or attack. It also means to have one's guard down, open to censure or criticism. Vulnerability refers to a person's state of being liable to succumb, as to manipulation, persuasion or temptation.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invulnerability

* invulnerable - immune to attack; impregnable; "gunners raked the beach from invulnerable positions on the cliffs"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* invulnerable - Incapable of being wounded, or of receiving injury; not vulnerable; Unanswerable; irrefutable; unable to be damaged by an attack or convinced; as, an invulnerable argument

By definition, invulnerability is immunity, or at least very high resistance to, physical attack or injury. or to being hurt emotionally. The curse that gave Angelus his soul was not a physical attack, and while it would probably be inspired by the Gypsies' feelings, emotions, and a desire for revenge, the spell itself was supernatural in content

Definitions of supernatural on the Web:


* not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or material; "supernatural forces and occurrences and ...
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Since invulnerability applies to immunity to physical injury or attack and the supernatural refers to something beyond natural laws and is neither physical nor material, Angel's soul should be in just as much danger from his "one moment of perfect happiness" regardless of whether he can walk in the sun and resist being staked or not. Obviously, or at least apparently, something or some ONE is keeping Angel's soul anchored in place, but, by definition, invulnerability isn't it.

Maybe Buffy just isn't giving him as much of a happy now as she did back in Season 2.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

...If Angel lost the tattoo at the end of ATF, then WHY is it back on his shoulder in Season 8?

Great catch, white avenger! If that's a continuity error, boy, is it a doozy, lol.

The simplest answer, other than the boo-boo thing, which I'm ignoring, is that Season 8 Angel AIN'T ATF Angel, and Joss, Dark Horse, and the writers have been playing us like trumpets from the first "accidental" leak about Angel being Twilight up to the present and beyond, if they can get away with it.

I don't think we can really have an "answer" yet a this point. We just have to let the story play out. It's in our nature to try and explain everything before we even know the whole story.

That's why the people at DH aren't worried about making contradictions to the IDW story line. Anything that DH does is done to and with someone other than IDW's characters. (Angel at least. It may be the genuine Spike coming to tell Buffy and her people about the fake, plus return to the Buffy series permanently. I can hope, anyhow)

It also would explain why this Angel isn't losing his soul after the latest "moment of complete happiness" like he did in Season 2. Phony Angel equals no curse.

True, true...

Also, on Page 13 (I think. They should number the pages) isn't the Slayer in what looks like the Roaring 20's outfit glowing even more than Buffy and Angel combined?

Agreed, they should number the pages. Easier for reference.

Maybe...I'll have to take another look.

I wish you were right, but I'm sure you're wrong.

This statement should be the official motto for the fandom now, lol.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

To answer the tattoo question:

I ask because Brian Lynch said early on that Angel's tattoo was removed when he was turned human. If that is the case, Angel's tattoo would be restored along with Angel's vampire.

Time was reversed after the removal.