Discussion of 8.34 "Twilight Part 3" - Released 4/07/10 (Dark Horse)

[AndrewCrossett]

I agree about Satsu. She acted childish. When Buffy sees Spike and Anya on Willow's computer, she doesn't react like that. Arguably, these two situations are comparable.

She's acting human... the only character in this whole issue whose actions seem understandable to me, possibly aside from Faith.

Here's an interesting paradox:

We're watching the Shanshu Prophecy happening right now. The Apocalypse is here, and Angel is champion of the forces aiming to destroy humans and replace them with a new demon-powered race.

But if he gets his reward of humanity, he'll die along with all the other humans who can't survive in this new world he's creating. Being made human would actually be a downgrade from the super-being he's become, and it would doom him... and the new race that he's supposed to be creating.

Could that be the big twist? The Shanshu comes true, Angel becomes human, and the Universe's plans are foiled because he's no longer capable of birthing this new super-race?

 

[GrimsWatcher]

Andrew, you always have interesting insights, even if they usually don't end up happening. I tend to not speculate, I never come up with anything deep or interesting anyway. I'm just going with the craziness of the story as I read it.

I thought Satsu moved on from Buffy, and she was understanding of the fact Buffy is straight. This was over a year ago. So I'm not big on the way Satsu acted walking off like that, but I've never been a great supporter of her character to begin with. She's just kind of.....there. She's around, and that's all she is.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

We're watching the Shanshu Prophecy happening right now. The Apocalypse is here, and Angel is champion of the forces aiming to destroy humans and replace them with a new demon-powered race.

But if he gets his reward of humanity, he'll die along with all the other humans who can't survive in this new world he's creating. Being made human would actually be a downgrade from the super-being he's become, and it would doom him... and the new race that he's supposed to be creating.

Could that be the big twist? The Shanshu comes true, Angel becomes human, and the Universe's plans are foiled because he's no longer capable of birthing this new super-race?

If that's the twist, Whedon's a hack. On what planet are we supposed to buy that Angel would want to give birth to a new world order that would kill off humanity? It's just so absurd. I'm not talking your theory here, but just general Twangel-ness...

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I thought Satsu moved on from Buffy, and she was understanding of the fact Buffy is straight. This was over a year ago. So I'm not big on the way Satsu acted walking off like that, but I've never been a great supporter of her character to begin with. She's just kind of.....there. She's around, and that's all she is.

Moving on isn't always that easy when you're in love, as Buffy is a living testament to.

It's probably not that easy for a woman to buy the "I'm straight" argument from another woman who's enthusiastically had sex with you, twice.

Given her character, I'm pretty sure Satsu has gone off to DO something, rather than just standing around talking and waiting for the end to come, like the others are all doing. Maybe she'll get the Scythe so she can go down fighting, and that's how they'll discover the Scythe is the secret weapon Giles was looking for all along.

 

[madhttr]

First post.

Based on what Giles says, "however much buffy and angel might love or miss each other -- what buffy's experiencing right now is the pull of something far more ancient, far more powerful and far more destructive than anyone in this omniverse has ever felt before." B/A started having sex but then something took over. Buffy comes to not knowing where they are, but notices she is dressed so she willingly took her clothes off earlier.

As for Giles looking for a rumored totem... the next panel shows the scythe with the caption "I needed to know how to kill a god". When buffy found it in S7 Giles I believe states that the watchers never knew of its existence. Could the scythe be the totem Giles had been searching for all this time without realizing they had it all along? and if the scythe is it and can kill a god... is willow a goddess and in the future the scythe was the only thing capable of killing her? Hasn't willow been hiding things from Buffy? Did her time with the serpent lady show willow parts of her path in the future and willow knew something like this was going to happen? did future willow try to stop this from happening with what little magic she had left to bring buffy to the future at a time there was a new slayer called since a slayer may be the only one powerful enough to even kill buffy? future willow thought the 21st century would be better off without her.

It could be fated that a vampire with a soul and a slayer would create a new evolution. Since Angel has the curse and Buffy and him went separate ways Giles didn't have much to worry about. When spike got his soul and saw how close him and Buffy had become it would make sense that he would also want to have spike killed to stop this union of the souled vampire and slayer.

This issue has my mind thinking about a lot and anxious for the next issue to see where things go. Had to share them somewhere.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

B/A started having sex but then something took over.

It seems to have taken over before they started having sex. Up until then, Buffy was pretty reasonably trying to kill Angel.

Buffy is trying to kill him, screaming at him... then the glow starts and she gets confused and flustered... and then she starts kissing him as it gets stronger.

 

[Willow13]

While I enjoyed them because of the challenges to our morals, I had a lot of problems with S6-S7 of Buffy and S5 of Angel and if we look closely Buffy and Angel involuted... they went for the worst. I do agree that Angel taking over W&H was his downfall and I think that what we are seeing now is the end game of how much they changed Buffy and Angel so they would fit with their supposed new love interest, Spike and Cordelia.

Why would someone think Spike is suitable for Buffy is beyond me when he played with her feelings so cruelly. I bet that giving the chance he would have turned her. Also, why ... or god.. why would Angel believe that going against the Black Thorn and W&H was a good thing because of the vision Cordelia gave him... considering that she was a previous demon. How much could he really trust her after she suddenly wake up from her sleep?

Let's see what BA will do when they know what is happening here on earth, but I can't see either of them coming out of this in my good graces... Twangel's action are too much to digest and Buffy's bordeline psychotic for sleeping with him. In the end, everyone will be pissed of a little. Bangel and Spuffy will lose the Buffyverse. Joss has lost his mind definitively.

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I also think that S8 is also a challenge to our beliefs. There a lot of people thinking there are goodness coming out of it just because finally BA could "do it" and be together. It is good to see them together even if over the slaughtering of the humanity. I don't think so. I'd rather see them far away of each other if it mean those girls weren't killed.

I so wanted to see Twangel ass well kicked!

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Also, why ... or god.. why would Angel believe that going against the Black Thorn and W&H was a good thing because of the vision Cordelia gave him... considering that she was a previous demon. How much could he really trust her after she suddenly wake up from her sleep?

Because it wasn't technically her that was doing all of the badness? Because she 'gave birth' to Jasmine so Jasmine and any remnants would be gone from her?

 

[Willow13]

Because it wasn't technically her that was doing all of the badness? Because she 'gave birth' to Jasmine so Jasmine and any remnants would be gone from her?

Cordelia gave birth to Jasmine and then went into coma. Angel could not be sure that Cordelia was Cordelia. Would you? I am sure I wouldn't. He didn't even checked she was herself... not for a minute it came to his mind that maybe there was more to her awakening then meet the eye. Just as he did when she came back from whatever she was back in the beginning of S4. Let's not forget that he took a long time to really accept Wes back in the pack.

He should have doubts also after the vision... I mean go against W&H when he knew up there the they were a dimensional company, they had branches everywhere? That was so Angel-ish!

 

[Anya2012]

Satsu really needs to get over herself. Buffy is STRAIGHT. Buffy was just experimenting.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Why would someone think Spike is suitable for Buffy is beyond me when he played with her feelings so cruelly. I bet that giving the chance he would have turned her

First of all. I liked Spikes character even when he was evil and soulless because of his honesty. He never lied about his feelings and he really loved Drusilla unlike Angel who had no feelings for Darla at all.

It´s save to say when Drusilla sired Spike even when he turned he had a little humanity left because of her link to TPTB. When they both met Angel and Darla they made him doing things he never wanted to. In the Angel series it´s quite clear that Spike changed because of Angel and Darla. He also blamed him fo all his actions in the past.

Spike wasn´t cursed like Angel he went out to fight for his soul to become a man who could be loved. At this point i prefered Buffy and Spike over Angel and her. In season 7 he went insane in the basement but he never gave up. Angel fired his whole team in season 3 of his series. I never understood that.

The point is Spike is Spike and he accepted what he is. A vampire with a soul and a champion for the good. Angel hates himself and his vampire self and this is what makes me wonder about his champion status.He wants to be human but in IWRY when he finally got the chance he decided to be a vampire after all. Doyle was more like a champion. When he sacrificed himself. He wasn´t hesitating or looking for another way. He just jumped like Buffy. Imo Angel would never sacrifice himself like that.

The AtF Angel is very different to the NFA Angel. I prefer the AtF Angel because of his behavior and Wesley as his guide. Goddamn i miss Wesley and Fred. 🙁

Angel loves Buffy with all his heart and soul but if they are together things get much worse. Sorry but if i were Angel i would never go near her again. That´s simple logic.

Spike loves Buffy too(she is the one for him) but when he got resurrected he knew he can´t show up like this and expect everything will be fine. I don´t know how Buffy will react when she finally discovers he is alive but i hope it´s something deeper and more emotional as a "You´r alive? Good and now lets fight the big bad!"

Worst case: Spike shows up and helps Buffy and after the fight he disappears into thin air or sacrifices himself again.

Best case: A very long conversation about there feelings and finally Buffy admits her love to him. I want them to talk about all the shit they went through and they were at there best when they fought together side by side. *sigh* I guess this will never happen but there is a little chance and i still believe.

Insane case: Spike died for real this time and she is just imagine him by her side to find the strength to fight Twilight/Angel/whatever. I have to thank Xaphania for the idea because of the beautiful but heartbreaking Spuffy fan fic stay.

Just my thoughts about the whole Bangel and Spuffy situation. I like them both but Spike deserves Buffy more then Angel. 🙂

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Satsu really needs to get over herself. Buffy is STRAIGHT. Buffy was just experimenting.

Wow, that really seems to be important to people. Okay, Buffy is straight. Now let's look at it from Satsu's perspective:

1. Buffy is currently demonstrating that she'd much rather have sex with a mass-murdering psychopathic undead villain than with her. Because nothing can defeat the penis, apparently. Hooray for the straight!

2. After telling Satsu she couldn't get involved with her because of the terrible things that happen when she loves someone, Buffy is now demonstrating that she doesn't really care about that at all. It was just her excuse for using Satsu as a quick hump-and-dump, apparently.

3. Buffy is currently betraying her, and all Slayers, by having sex with the man who slaughtered 200 of her sisters and turned the whole world against them. Not to mention putting Satsu herself in the hospital.

4. Buffy's enthusiastic heterosexuality is now destroying the world and all 6 billion humans in it. Three cheers for Buffy's straightness. Way to keep the mission. You slay, Slayer!

So I'll excuse Satsu for not wanting to hang around, listening to the others lecture each other about metaphysics and trade quips while the world ends around them.

Everyone else is suprised, and scared, but Satsu is the only one who seems to be angry about what Buffy is doing after all that's happened. Good for her.

I'm sure Satsu is only just now realizing how lucky she is that Buffy was straight.

 

[Kean]

If that's the twist, Whedon's a hack. On what planet are we supposed to buy that Angel would want to give birth to a new world order that would kill off humanity? It's just so absurd. I'm not talking your theory here, but just general Twangel-ness...

That's my point exactly! and precisely why I believe Twilight, whatever it is, has Angel very much in its control. Angel already gave up Utopia in killing Jasmine, there is no way he would look to usher in a new "paradise" of his own free will.

 

[sosa lola]

A hero deserves to be with a hero. This is why I ship Spuffy... for me, they fit together. Balance each other out. Compliment each other.

I don't see how Spike or Angel are Buffy's equal? Buffy isn't just a demon, she's also human. She has human needs as well. Spike and Angel can't give her that. The perfect match for Buffy will be a Slayer like her. If it's about fighting, Xander can learn how to fight. Wood was able to hold his own just fine, and Xander can do that too with more practice and training.

But in the end, it doesn't matter who's best for Buffy. What matters is who Buffy wants. Issues earlier it used to be Xander, now it's Angel.

Saying they're destined is convenient, but it makes sense. It explains how Angel fell in love with her at first sight, and how she admitted she loved in as early on as "Angel" when she hardly knew him.

I don't like it personally. Like I said, I don't like the idea of Buffy's attraction to Angel and Spike to be a result of destiny or outer force. Actually, it makes her feelings for both Riley and Xander more real, she loved them despite that connection.

I agree about Satsu. She acted childish. When Buffy sees Spike and Anya on Willow's computer, she doesn't react like that. Arguably, these two situations are comparable

I disagree. I don't think it's much to do with Buffy choosing someone else as the person himself. Buffy is having sex with the guy who'd been torturing them, killing Slayers and spreading hate, not to mention the guy who sent the kitty monsters who almost caused Satsu her life. The situation is quite different from Entropy.

Satsu has every right to be angry as should everyone in that room.


For anyone who wants to read a wonderful review that explains what's going on, you MUST check Stormwreath's LJ:

StephenT - (Review) BtVS 8.34 'Twilight' Part 3

 

[Beaumonde]

Why are people getting on Satsu's case? It's not like she made a big scene or anything. I've gotta agree with everything Andrew has said about her behaviour.

 

[LyteHouse]

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I disagree. I don't think it's much to do with Buffy choosing someone else as the person himself. Buffy is having sex with the guy who'd been torturing them, killing Slayers and spreading hate, not to mention the guy who sent the kitty monsters who almost caused Satsu her life. The situation is quite different from Entropy.

Satsu has every right to be angry as should everyone in that room.

It's not quite that--it's the fact that the situation is in Code Red/Defcon One and she left.

AndrewCrossett's her biggest fan, and he says he assumes she went off to do something proactive. If he's right about that she's in the right. But if she just stormed off in anger to sulk, which is the implication Meltzer's issue had, then she's absolutely useless to the good fight.

Someone who abandons the good fight during the apocalypse because their feelings are hurt is not a hero. We might not have seen the same thing before, but we've seen lots of similar situations:

• Spike was Buffy's last ally. She falls asleep in his arms, after he wakes up, he tracks her down to find her kissing Angel. Spike didn't abandon the good fight.
• Angel sees Cordy having sex with his young son. Angel didn't abandon the good fight, and continued to rescue them.

The only time anyone did run off over cheating was Cordy in S3, and she was no Champion then, plus the world wasn't ending at the time.

 

[Eleftheria]

About what Buffy4ever2k10 said.


Angel hates his vampire self because despite the fact he knows Angelus is a different personality he tends to consider himself guilty for his actions, cause Angelus has the same brain and same body with Angel. Even some traits of his personality, but there is no comparison.

He would certainly sacrifice himself for the good of others. Doyle pushed him away, other wise Angel would have jumped.

As for IWRY, I will not discuss it here. Everyone has a personal opinion which I respect. Mine is that Angel sacrificed his humanity to save Buffy's life. He doesn't want to be a vampire but he will be in order to save Buffy.

Maybe Spike had more humanity as a soulless vampire due to Dru's connection with the PTB but noone forces him to commit any actions. He killed two slayers and felt no remorse among other things. Angelus taught him to inflict pain yes, but he is an evil vampire who has a will on his own.

About the curse. Maybe some people don't see Angel as a champion because he was forced to have a soul.
Well, although I respect Spike in AtS s5, i tend to have my own doubts about his journey of redemption which started with a chip and obsession with a Slayer.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

I don't like it personally. Like I said, I don't like the idea of Buffy's attraction to Angel and Spike to be a result of destiny or outer force. Actually, it makes her feelings for both Riley and Xander more real, she loved them despite that connection.

Spike wasn´t part of the plan and falling in love with Buffy wasn´t destiny or anything. It just happens the natural way.I wonder what if Angel had used the amulett and not Spike. Angel would be dead and the universe couldn´t fulfill its(the universe is a it isn´t it?) plan or would it just force Spike to get a soul? Spike wasn´t supposed to be resurrected but Lindsey done it anyways. I´m missing something here.

Buffy fell for Spike because he was there for her all the time even in the darkest hours. He never left her side. This is true love for me and it´s nothing like the Angel situation. I got really sick about his excuse with the curse very quickly.

Same goes for Spikes love for Buffy. He developed his feelings over time not like Angel with his love at first sight bullshit. I never bought the Cordy/Angel situation it was just so unbelievable. Imo Angel feels different about love as everyone else. He never loved Darla and he never fell in love after he got his soul back. It took a long time and when he finally saw Buffy it was love on first sight. Let´s face it he was a easy target for Twilight/Universe/the spaghetti monster or whatever.

Spike got his soul on his own and became the champion Buffy needed to be happy. Honestley i never thought Angel would fight for his soul like Spike did. Don´t forget Angel and Angelus are seperated identitys and Spike was always Spike (William the bloody was a creation through Angels cruelty) even when he was soulless.

I´m glad Spike shows up soon and is not in the twilightzone right now.

I really think Angel somehow merged with Angelus into one person and now they are fighting over the control of their body. The whole Buff callling is so right in our face and hurting Faith so much was really strange. He was no treat to him because he was invincible so why hurting her so much? I thought she was serious injured at this time. Maybe Angel triggered somehow the instant healing too.

My theory for all this madness. Angelus is causing all the bad things and Angel is desperately trying to hold the bodycount as low as possible and giving some hints to Buffy but a unknown force overtook her too and they started the apocalypse together. For me imho it´s the only way his character can be saved or he is just a lunatic. If that´s case i´m done with his character.

So many questions and so many theories. Damn i could write a whole book...i really should stop writing.

 

[sosa lola]

It's not quite that--it's the fact that the situation is in Code Red/Defcon One and she left.

AndrewCrossett's her biggest fan, and he says he assumes she went off to do something proactive. If he's right about that she's in the right. But if she just stormed off in anger to sulk, which is the implication Meltzer's issue had, then she's absolutely useless to the good fight.

Someone who abandons the good fight during the apocalypse because their feelings are hurt is not a hero. We might not have seen the same thing before, but we've seen lots of similar situations:

• Spike was Buffy's last ally. She falls asleep in his arms, after he wakes up, he tracks her down to find her kissing Angel. Spike didn't abandon the good fight.
• Angel sees Cordy having sex with his young son. Angel didn't abandon the good fight, and continued to rescue them.

The only time anyone did run off over cheating was Cordy in S3, and she was no Champion then, plus the world wasn't ending at the time.

Who knows if she actually abondons the fight? She leavs in a huff, she's human, she's hurt, perhaps she's going to calm down and return in the next issue.

You mention Spike, but Spike does also leave in a huff after seeing Buffy kissing Angel, he actually wastes time drawing Angel and punching him out of anger.

Not to mention that the Angel Buffy kissed in Chosen was still a hero, however, Angel here is a murderer and Buffy is betraying them all now.