Discussion of 8.35 "Twilight Part 4" - Released 5/05/10 (Dark Horse)

[cranetimothyj]

SO much needs to happen! Buffy needs to be told that Cordy is dead. Buffy needs to be told about Conner. Spike and Angel need to have a "chat." Buffy and Spike need to have a talk. Why is Spike there? What is going on? How does Spike know who Twilight is? WTF is up with the spaceship? How can Joss do all this?! There are still so many loose ends to tie together.

I need to go work on my midterm.

Unfortunately it sounds like with everything going on they'll have little to no time to touch on these subjects :-( though I do look forward to Spike and Angel having a conversation about Connor, walking off leaving Buffy going "You have a son?"

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Allright thanks to my insomnia i write some opinions of mine without reading the issue yet.

Min, I second that! I'm not Illyria's biggest fan, but I would LOVE to see the look on Buffy's face when she's introduced to her.

Illyria were indeed a great surprise and i would love to see Buffy reaction to her but she never knew Fred so it were just another demongodthingy to her. Still a powerfull ally and fighter but no connection at all. Makes me sad if i think about it to long.

Yet, I'm more interested in Buffy knowing about Conner and Cordy

Me too. Connor is very important to him but he never told her? Hard to believe. I´m also curious how she will react when she finds out who Connors mother was. 🙂

Cordy left Sunnydale years ago and nobody tried to get in touch with her so i don´t think Buffy knew she died. It was a horrible long and painfull death and i guess it´s better to just not mention it at all. She died and that´s it. When i realised that Jasmine had taken over Cordys body and slept with Connor. I always had the image in my head that she was still conscious the whole time. Yeah i know my mind is very twisted.

* Giles seems completely convinced there is no hope for the universe - what now?

Are Buffy and Angel still godlike(no pun intended)?

* I'm confused about Warren's concern for Andrew - where is this coming from? Has be done a complete turn-around? Meltzer said in the Buffyfest Q&A that him and Warren are genuine friends - do you guys agree? Somehow I doubt that Warren's concern is genuine. It seems contrived. After all, would anyone else care if Andrew died? Maybe that's supposed to be the joke, like how Twilight couldn't remember Andrew's name.

When i saw the famous Trio together i really had the impression they were friends. Nerdy(nothing wrong with being nerdy) and kinda strange but friends after all. I was surpised when they tried to get rid of Jonathan. The jetpack scene was hilarious.

Maybe Warren isn´t so bad after all and his behavior is just for show or he just wants Andrews skin? 🙂

Are Amy and Andrew dead or just badly injured?

@Joan I care about Andrew. :tongue3:

* Buffy's doubt - her cynicism - is what keeps her and her friends alive. By trying to convince her that she shouldn't doubt where they are and how they got there, Angel's crazy. What does he except? That she'll just accept it and they can live happily ever after?

Angel: Paradise is ours to write.
Buffy: But all I wanna write is the part where I see my friends.

This is the Buffy we know. I could hear her in my head saying these lines. Unlike Angel, who's more than willing to allow humanity to perish so he can selfishly live in paradise with the one he loves - Buffy can't do that. Buffy is defined by her friends. Her family, as she says. Angel has no family apparently, and answers to no one anymore. What I don't get is why Angel is acting completely opposite as he's ever acted. This is a man who's never given up on humanity, and has always rejected "destiny" and all that - why the turn-around? What happened to him?

Angel sounds like a total lunatic. Has someone seen his brain? Please call I-WANT-MY-BRAIN-BACK if you have seen it. If you found it please use a jar,cooler or something to keep it fresh and alive.

I said it already in another thread but what if Angel has just given up and doesn´t care anymore about the world,mankind,his friends? There is only one thing i can think off that would just make him snap and that´s the death of Connor or Buffy. Maybe someone or something showed him the future and he choose to prevent that from happening but he would never risk the whole world wouldn´t he? Wiping out mankind so he can be with Buffy forever is a little bit extreme even for Angel.

I´m glad Buffy doesn´t listen to him anymore and seems to be back in character. Good girl. I knew she wouldn´t disappoint me. But she isn´t off the hook yet. I still want some explanations to the whole screwing Twilight thing.

The thing that shocked me the most in this issue was this line:
They can handle this, Buffy.

... WTF! Sounds like that he wants to see everybody die. Angel are you nuts?

Best line, EVER:

That's what I need to fight for. Not happiness. Not humanity. Them. Those people.

I agree! :biggrin3:

 

[white avenger]

Exactly, we fall in love, we can't be pushed.

---------- Post added at 07:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 PM ----------

I'll leave you in the very capable hands of Mr. George Michael.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVwThgSFBFI

And right back at you from a legend in the entertainment field

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbkrzJjoC5Y"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbkrzJjoC5Y[/ame]

 

[Kean]

I asked Brad Metlzer on Twitter if Angel deciding to reject Twilight and go back with Buffy was his way of reclaiming whatever control Twilight had of him and he replied:

That decision had power. RT @KeanCommaThe: was Angel deciding to leave with Buffy his way of reclaiming control Twilight had of him?

Whether it was the first step of reclaiming control or a fully fledged rejection of Twilight, I feel we are at least on the right track. Also, Meltzer answered another person's question of why Angel just gave up on Twilight after spending so long pursuing it, by repeating this issue's title: "The Power of Love". He did it for Buffy. I don't think Angel is as lost to us as we earlier thought. *crosses fingers*

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I asked Brad Metlzer on Twitter if Angel deciding to reject Twilight and go back with Buffy was his way of reclaiming whatever control Twilight had of him and he replied:

That decision had power. RT @KeanCommaThe: was Angel deciding to leave with Buffy his way of reclaiming control Twilight had of him?

Whether it was the first step of reclaiming control or a fully fledged rejection of Twilight, I feel we are at least on the right track. Also, Meltzer answered another person's question of why Angel just gave up on Twilight after spending so long pursuing it, by repeating this issue's title: "The Power of Love". He did it for Buffy. I don't think Angel is as lost to us as we earlier thought. *crosses fingers*

In his BuffyFest interview he was asked if Angel was redeemable, and he said "Yes, after #35."

Some people took that to mean that he considered Angel to have redeemed himself in #35, which of course not too many of us would agree with. But I think he meant that he made the decisions in #35 that made it possible for him to make amends.. he's redeemable after #35, not in #35.

His answer to your question makes me think that making the decision to follow Buffy broke Twilight's hold on him. We can't be sure what's going through Angel's mind right now, but the only thing he said after returning from Twilight was to agree with Willow's anger toward him. Good sign...

Angel chose Buffy over Twilight, and that had power... the Power of Love so cheesily referred to in the issue's subtitle.

(Oh, and may I add:

Q: "Does Satsu will remain relevant in the rest of the history?"

Meltzer: "I think so. For sure."

Awesome!)

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I loved this issue, had more fun reading it than any New Canon in months, but it was still pretty bad, hahaha.

Boreanaz' philandering couldn't have come out at a worse time, since Angel's journey of destruction and then assuming blanket forgiveness--well, there are some parallels.

The issue was very fun, the dialog was 90% spot on, which for recent publications is very good. I know Buffy said it herself, but this was a pretty cheesy issue.

It was fun because Angel turning good (sort of), Buffy planting her feet in sanity, and Spike reappearing to save the day are all landmark moments that hearken back to some of the best of the Buffyverse.

Why's it stupid? Cheesiness, predictability, convenience of making everyone a hero in their own way, and the list goes on. Meltzer wrote the first very comic-booky issue of the comic book. And since that's what the guy does, job well done.

I really wish the series wasn't canon. I just do, because it's a dumb series. But at least now I think it's a worthwhile dumb series that can be a fun read 🙂 .

Let me put it this way, it might make sense if they heavily edit #21-#34, but now it stands as dumb fun, which is a marked step-up, imho.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I loved this issue, had more fun reading it than any New Canon in months, but it was still pretty bad, hahaha.

Boreanaz' philandering couldn't have come out at a worse time, since Angel's journey of destruction and then assuming blanket forgiveness--well, there are some parallels.

The issue was very fun, the dialog was 90% spot on, which for recent publications is very good. I know Buffy said it herself, but this was a pretty cheesy issue.

It was fun because Angel turning good (sort of), Buffy planting her feet in sanity, and Spike reappearing to save the day are all landmark moments that hearken back to some of the best of the Buffyverse.

Why's it stupid? Cheesiness, predictability, convenience of making everyone a hero in their own way, and the list goes on. Meltzer wrote the first very comic-booky issue of the comic book. And since that's what the guy does, job well done.

I really wish the series wasn't canon. I just do, because it's a dumb series. But at least now I think it's a worthwhile dumb series that can be a fun read 🙂 .

Let me put it this way, it might make sense if they heavily edit #21-#34, but now it stands as dumb fun, which is a marked step-up, imho.

I totally agree with all of your comments. I enjoyed reading this issue too.

---------- Post added at 09:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 PM ----------

Allright thanks to my insomnia i write some opinions of mine without reading the issue yet.

Couldn't resist, eh? 😉

Me too. Connor is very important to him but he never told her? Hard to believe. I´m also curious how she will react when she finds out who Connors mother was. 🙂

Can you spell glaring, big bad continuity error? lol, yeah, Buffy's reaction to Darla being Conner's mother would be classic.

Cordy left Sunnydale years ago and nobody tried to get in touch with her so i don´t think Buffy knew she died. It was a horrible long and painfull death and i guess it´s better to just not mention it at all. She died and that´s it. When i realised that Jasmine had taken over Cordys body and slept with Connor. I always had the image in my head that she was still conscious the whole time. Yeah i know my mind is very twisted.

The death of Cordelia is one of my biggest "issues" with AtS. But yeah, I don't know...I kind of feel like Buffy would want to know what happened to Cordelia.

When i saw the famous Trio together i really had the impression they were friends. Nerdy(nothing wrong with being nerdy) and kinda strange but friends after all. I was surpised when they tried to get rid of Jonathan. The jetpack scene was hilarious.

Yeah, the Trio were a riot. Season 6 is my favorite Season, and I thought they were hilarious in their enept-ness - Jonathan and Andrew were such BAD "villians!" Warren on the other hand was honestly evil. What I found so interesting about him was that he was a human, but he was as evil and soulless as any other non-human Big Bad on the show. Physiologically, the guy was fascinating.

Maybe Warren isn´t so bad after all and his behavior is just for show or he just wants Andrews skin? 🙂

lol, no, Warren was pretty bad.

Are Amy and Andrew dead or just badly injured?

@Joan I care about Andrew. :tongue3

I wonder that too. I guess we'll have to see.

I as sorta kidding about Andrew. I don't want to see him die, either although I'll admit I'm not all that attached to him.

Angel sounds like a total lunatic. Has someone seen his brain? Please call I-WANT-MY-BRAIN-BACK if you have seen it. If you found it please use a jar,cooler or something to keep it fresh and alive.

lol, i think there's hope for him yet...at least I sure hope so If Angel redeems himself, I'll take him back in an instant.

I said it already in another thread but what if Angel has just given up and doesn´t care anymore about the world,mankind,his friends? There is only one thing i can think off that would just make him snap and that´s the death of Connor or Buffy. Maybe someone or something showed him the future and he choose to prevent that from happening but he would never risk the whole world wouldn´t he? Wiping out mankind so he can be with Buffy forever is a little bit extreme even for Angel.

I agree, this is pretty extreme even for Angel. I don't know though, regarding Conner - he did kill Conner himself to give him a better life. He can withstand the death of him -he's went through it before.

I´m glad Buffy doesn´t listen to him anymore and seems to be back in character. Good girl. I knew she wouldn´t disappoint me. But she isn´t off the hook yet. I still want some explanations to the whole screwing Twilight thing.

Agreed. *pats Buffy on head*
There's our Buffy!

 

[Kean]

In his BuffyFest interview he was asked if Angel was redeemable, and he said "Yes, after #35."

Some people took that to mean that he considered Angel to have redeemed himself in #35, which of course not too many of us would agree with. But I think he meant that he made the decisions in #35 that made it possible for him to make amends.. he's redeemable after #35, not in #35.

His answer to your question makes me think that making the decision to follow Buffy broke Twilight's hold on him. We can't be sure what's going through Angel's mind right now, but the only thing he said after returning from Twilight was to agree with Willow's anger toward him. Good sign...

Angel chose Buffy over Twilight, and that had power... the Power of Love so cheesily referred to in the issue's subtitle.

(Oh, and may I add:

Q: "Does Satsu will remain relevant in the rest of the history?"

Meltzer: "I think so. For sure."

Awesome!)

This is exactly what I've taken from this issue and Meltzer's words too. I think we have actually been proven right in our speculation a couple issues back. The Universe's plan has backfired, instead of B/A's love ending the world it will save it, or at least try to.
Love it!

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Finally i got my copy and read it right away. I have to agree with Buffyverse Fan. It´s really cheesy and kinda lame.

At the end when they enter the portal it looks like Twilights influence was either fading or just gone. Was it really that simple to get rid of Twilight? Angel were it´s puppet for a whole year and all of a sudden after some cheesy lines he is himself again? Sorry i don´t buy it.

I still don´t know who or what the real big bad is but i guess it´s really the universe. *sigh*

Angel and Buffy are still godlike so why they should need Spikes help?

I´m the only one who thought the "ship" looks like something Jules Verne would come up with it? It´s really huge so i guess Spike isn´t alone but who is with him and who the hell build that thing in the first place? I can´t help but my first thought was it´s a freakin timemachine.

Willow scares the hell out of me. It´s like she always knows what happens next and is it me or did she recognized the "ship"?

I´m not really satisfied with the answers i got and there are so many new questions and again the 3 months break really sucks.

 

[cordangel]

Raise the stake! Joss is destroying the Angel we all know and love! He can't do it! Let's stop him!

Angel sounds like Cordelia when she's ascending: "everything's gonna be allright!" and seems ready to be destroyed like her (and killed soon?). And even if this is not joss intention, I want to remind him:
-Angel has grown since he left Sunnydale and he's not Buffy's lapdog anymore
-he evolved and changed and loved others besides Buffy: his friends, Cordelia (do you remember her, Joss?) and his son. His world isn't around Buffy anymore.
Joss, I know you're much involved with BtVS than AtS but, please, before writing about our beloved character... well, speak with Greenwalt.

 

[Kean]

Angel's decision isn't about Buffy being his whole world, and it doesn't negate from the relationships either of them have had in the absence of each other.

To me this says that not only has Angel officially rejected Twilight, or at least taken the first step in doing so, but he did it for Buffy, because he loves Buffy. What has been forgotten throughout this arc, I think, is that Buffy and Angel have this implicit, absolute trust in one another. He is trusting her to reject Twilight and the Universe's plan the same way he trusted her when she asked for a second front, when she told him to close his eyes, when she told him to just kiss her. In the same way, this is why Buffy trusted Angel when he said he wasn't responsible for those girl's deaths, when he gave up his humanity (at least for the few moments that she knew what was happening), when she trusted him to just drink enough, when he left Sunnydale. Alot of the time these decisions have caused unimaginable pain for both them and those around them but they do it every, single time. This is who Buffy and Angel are and always have been. If Buffy and Angel believe in anything, it is each other.

I don't think any of us can say that this isn't perfectly in character for them both.

 

[Tranquillity]

I'm still trying to sort out my feelings for the issue... but what i do know, at this stage, is that I'm completely concerned for Angel and I feel his character has been done a great injustice in this issue, no, with this whole story . . . some of the things he says - the fact that he contradicts himself over and over, the fact that he tries to talk Buffy into staying in 'Twilight' once they see the hell on earth . . . it's all so deeply disturbing. Buffy is great - she calls him on the cheese he's trying to sell her and is determined to head for home and help her friends and family and I suppose it's great that Angel decides to join her in the fight but...but... It's not a satisfying outcome because I don't understand why he felt compelled to become Twilight in the first place, I don't understand why he was wearing the dumb costume, I don't understand why he 'pushed' Buffy into this 'assention' and I don't understand the point of the previous 34 issues of this season eight comic if Twilight's identity means exactly nothing in the scheme of things and he can just effectively say 'oh, so you're not going to stay in paradise with me? Okay, I'm not gonna be Twilight anymore, let's go and fight some demons." So many things have to be explained before I can be comfortable with all this.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

I´m still confused about the whole Twilight situation and why it was so important to start a war and force Buffy into sex with Angel.

I don´t get the war part. If it was the universe who planned all this million years ago why make it so complicated? I guess Buffy would have sex with Angel at any time if the curse were "inactive". Of course she needed to get her super powers first but we still don´t know what triggered it and the scythe is still missing. The whole i kill you part was only show to push her to the edge to become what she was meant to be but it doesn´t make sense to me.

The universe wants to create a new master race because humans are either lame,boring or just not worth living. And the new master race is for what exactly? To have new playtoys or did they plan to take over the whole galaxy? Conquering new planets for the new empire? Building a deathstar?

All villains Buffy faced had one thing in common. They wanted to rule the world and maybe enslaving mankind were their agenda too. I´m not a super villain so i just wouldn´t know what to do with the whole world. Sure killing humans for fun and ruling world sounds nice but what´s the point from taking over the world?

Humans are no match for Demons and rain down chaos,pain and destruction over the world sounds good too but what happens after everything is gone?

Demons existed for how long? They kill,hunt,torture,f*ck or eat humans since the beginning of mankind. The world is just a huge playground for them and demons hate mankind but they never tried to really get rid of us. Only some f*cked up hellgod,a snake,a government experiment,the famous trio and an old one tried to get rid of humanity but they all failed because they were just to stupid and of course Buffy,Angel,Spike and their friends. They never tried to ally themselfs with every demon on the world and wipe out mankind once and for all? Maybe demons don´t get along very well with eachother and it would always end in a massacre.

Why is creating a master race so important for the universe? Were all villains Buffy and Angel ever faced and defeated under the influence of the universe to just test them?

The whole Twilight plot seems so pointless to me now. If his love for Buffy is truly the reason why he is no longer under the control of the universe why now? Did Angel feels his love for her only after they f*cked? I assume he still had his free will all the time so why just not confront her right away and try to fight Twilight together?

Wiping out mankind for the love of your life is a really really really bad idea Angel. What were you thinking?

 

[Mumrik]

Pfffsht, great. I finally get my hands on a copy and most of what I was thinking has already been said - mostly by Joan and Kean. I don't want to repeat everything and I don't have much time to reply to anything so just a few thoughts:

I really enjoyed this issue, it was a fun, good read. I love Buffy in it. She was back to being the Buffy we know. As for Angel - well. He made the right decision in the end by following Buffy back to their world and I think that's going to be the beginning of his atoning for what he did while under the thrall of Twilight. BUT I can't believe that he was willing to give up everything and everyone to start a new world with Buffy - including his friends, his family, his son. What the hell, hero?

Some small details I noticed and wonder about that haven't been discussed - how could Angel possibly know whose clothes it were Buffy was changing into? Does him having been controlled by Twilight gave him knowledge about every Slayer in existence? It seemed so. This could be interesting, although I doubt it's going to be touched upon much. Five issues with the story that's yet to be told aren't enough for that. And I think the duster Buffy changed into was Nikki Wood's (which Spike took after taking it from her), which was neat.

Predictable cliffhanger. It didn't grab me but I'm glad to see Spike back, his fans have been waiting long enough. His fingernails made me chuckle. I know he painted them in the series but I think I've only seen them chipped and just had this mental of him sitting in his space tank, painting his nails, going, "Bloody hell, I painted over the borders again!"

I'd agree with Frketson. The comics don't excite. I just view the comics as a bland piece of paper. The Buffyverse comes back to life when fans chat about it though.

---------- Post added at 11:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 PM ----------

I accept what Joss writes but i don't take the comics too seriously. I totally differentiate the comics from the television series therefore i don't get too passionate about what i hear about. I find it interesting finding out what is happening but it doesn't effect me like the television series used too.

You say you don't read the comics but then say they don't excite you? How can they excite you if you don't read them? I think reading them is a completely different experience than reading about them. Did you at least give it a try and then said, ok, it's not for me? But then, I like the comics, I like the storyline and I see them as valid as the TV series, the good as well as the bad issues.

 

[dan k]

Perhaps i should give the comics a try. I've just never really read any Comics before and never previously been interested in doing so.

 

[Mumrik]

Perhaps i should give the comics a try. I've just never really read any Comics before and never previously been interested in doing so.

I really encourage you to do so. I think they're good stories (except for maybe Predators and Prey ... though it's better if you read them all in one go) and really worth a read. Of course, that's just my personal opinion on a diversifying subject. The pacing is completely different from the TV series, of course, so will need some getting used to - especially if you're not used to comics - but it's not bad. But I think you should definitely give the comics a try, you might end up liking it 🙂

 

[LyteHouse]

We all know Joss Whedon can't end a story without killing someone.

I'm going to stick my neck out and predict that Angel is going to die.

Face it, he's been the Big Bad all season and a self-sacrificing death might be the only way to redeem his character.

Place your bets.....

 

[Superstar]

Perhaps i should give the comics a try. I've just never really read any Comics before and never previously been interested in doing so.

Comics have a somewhat bad rapsheet unfairly given to them.
Some have earned their jackets though, to be fair.

The Buffy comics are worth reading.

Now for those who moan about Buffy's "porn"...
You can read Tarot, Witch of the Black Rose for some decent story-driven fleshy goodness (then try to come back and complain about Buffy in comparison).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarot,_Witch_of_the_Black_Rose

 

[SpaceLord]

We all know Joss Whedon can't end a story without killing someone.

I'm going to stick my neck out and predict that Angel is going to die.

Face it, he's been the Big Bad all season and a self-sacrificing death might be the only way to redeem his character.

Place your bets.....

I have a hard time imagining that to be honest. Not because I think he's worth saving but because of the fact that IDW would throw a fit. No some nice white washing of his character and he's back to being the brooding wonder in LA as if nothing has happened.

 

[frankie]

I haven't read this issue and probably won't, but where do we stand on the whole Buffy having sex with Twilight. Was she forced into doing it by the universe (Sigh!) or was she just running on lust.
I know people will say it's perfectly within her character to have sex with a killer. aka. Spike, but I've never bought that. Season 6 was Buffy at her worst. When she looked at the world, she didn't see a world she wanted to be part of. When she looked at her sister she seen a burden, when she looked at her friends, she saw people who took away her happiness. She gave into feeling and lust to give her self a release from that misery.
Season 8, the scoobies may not be as tight as they were but when she looks at them, she sees friends. When she looks at Dawn, she sees a sister, and when she looks at the world, she sees a home she has to protect. The misery she has had for this season has been twilight killing a lot of people. For me it's not enough this time to give into lust, the pain is not there for her to try and escape from.
I really just want to know, is there an explanation for why she had sex with him. Is it a just a case of, "oh, it's Angel and I love him, let's give into the lust", if so, well I'm not as much in the " Yay, Buffy's back " parade."