Discussion of 8.35 "Twilight Part 4" - Released 5/05/10 (Dark Horse)

[Buffyverse Fan]

I haven't read this issue and probably won't, but where do we stand on the whole Buffy having sex with Twilight. Was she forced into doing it by the universe (Sigh!) or was she just running on lust.

Implication is her lust was fueled by the Universe's Destiny in addition to her own, but she overcame it (Angel did too after Buffy).

I know people will say it's perfectly within her character to have sex with a killer. aka. Spike, but I've never bought that. Season 6 was Buffy at her worst. When she looked at the world, she didn't see a world she wanted to be part of. When she looked at her sister she seen a burden, when she looked at her friends, she saw people who took away her happiness. She gave into feeling and lust to give her self a release from that misery.
Season 8, the scoobies may not be as tight as they were but when she looks at them, she sees friends. When she looks at Dawn, she sees a sister, and when she looks at the world, she sees a home she has to protect. The misery she has had for this season has been twilight killing a lot of people. For me it's not enough this time to give into lust, the pain is not there for her to try and escape from.
I really just want to know, is there an explanation for why she had sex with him. Is it a just a case of, "oh, it's Angel and I love him, let's give into the lust", if so, well I'm not as much in the " Yay, Buffy's back " parade."

Imo, it was a stupid betrayal of Buffy & Angel's characters, but #35 was fun.

Don't believe Scott Allie when he says #35 answers the questions. It kind of does answer the questions, but the answers are ridiculous. It would be like Joss saying Spike's hair became blond because he was in Hiroshima when the bomb dropped and was irradiated, he only survived because the Incredible Hulk shielded him, and all the radiation gave him his new 'do. Is it possible? Maybe... Absurd? Surely!

This was the first Buffy issue I outright enjoyed in over a year, but plotwise, it could be summed up like this:

ANGEL: Sex is fun!

BUFFY: Yes! Sex is fun! But should we destroy the world, and let all of our friends and family die just to have all of this fun sex and make super-babies?

ANGEL: I think so...?

BUFFY: No, I think we should not let our families die gruesomely just so we can have all of this fun sex.

ANGEL: Oh! I never thought of it like that. Yeah, I'm good again! Just let me change back into my old clothes, and now I'm a hero once more!

WILLOW: Gee whiz Angel, I'm going to give you a mighty big talking to about murdering all of those people!

[Angel flashes a sheepish apologetic "oops" look]

WILLOW: Aw, I can't stay mad at you ya big lug!

SPIKE: Here I am to save the day old friends!

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

I haven't read this issue and probably won't, but where do we stand on the whole Buffy having sex with Twilight. Was she forced into doing it by the universe (Sigh!) or was she just running on lust.
I know people will say it's perfectly within her character to have sex with a killer. aka. Spike, but I've never bought that. Season 6 was Buffy at her worst. When she looked at the world, she didn't see a world she wanted to be part of. When she looked at her sister she seen a burden, when she looked at her friends, she saw people who took away her happiness. She gave into feeling and lust to give her self a release from that misery.
Season 8, the scoobies may not be as tight as they were but when she looks at them, she sees friends. When she looks at Dawn, she sees a sister, and when she looks at the world, she sees a home she has to protect. The misery she has had for this season has been twilight killing a lot of people. For me it's not enough this time to give into lust, the pain is not there for her to try and escape from.
I really just want to know, is there an explanation for why she had sex with him. Is it a just a case of, "oh, it's Angel and I love him, let's give into the lust", if so, well I'm not as much in the " Yay, Buffy's back " parade."

It´s really hard to tell but imo it was forced through the universe and free will.

When i was with my love of my life everything was great and i´ve done everything for her. I literally mean everything. But real life experiences doesn´t fit the profile and the Buffy and Angelverse works different ways.

Take me for an example. I´ve done some good things but mostly really bad things and i know i will never be able to forgive myself because the bad things are always there to remind me who i really am. But i live with it. Every second. Every hour. Every day.
Because i have to. This is who i am and you can´t change the past. Ever. I assure you all i´m fine. Really.

The point is it doesn´t matter how much good you do it´s never enough and maybe Angel feels the way i do.

Kean said there is such thing as love at first sight,destined love and soulmates but i still don´t believe something like that exists in the real world but it´s a fact in "their" world.

What´s bothering me the most wasn´t the sexathon or that she had sex (sorry but it had nothing to do with making love) with him. I was shocked how easily Angel tricked her into the sex. He said so much rubbish and i thought "Don´t tell me Buffy will fall for that" but she did and that´s what i don´t get. She is supposed to be a grown up woman now and not a 16 year old teenager. How could she fall so easily for him?

The question is why would you chose to have sex with someone who murdered so many people only hours ago? Love is strong and powerfull i get it but is it possible that you suddenly forget all the bad things the person caused? Maybe that was the exact moment the universe kicked in she remembered all the bad things he had done but the universe somehow made her forget everything so they can engage in the cosmic sex to enter Twilight. Sorry but this sounds like rape to me again.

Would Buffy chose to have sex with Angel if she had her free will? Of course but i highly doubt she would have sex with him under these whole Twilight circumstances.

I mean come on. He betrayed her on a level that is beyond anything what they had done to eachother before. His army killed innocents and slayers. He destroyed a slayer base with a freakin magical rocket. He was willing to sacrifice every person in the world. For what? So he can be with her and live in a different plane of existence without pain and death? That´s just insane.

Being human means you live and you die. And it´s about experiencing bad and good emotions like pain,anger,fear,lust,love,hate and so on. A life without all that isn´t a life at all and Angel was willing to take that away from her. That´s worse at it´s gets.

The soul doesn´t made Angel a better person. Everybody can be evil and it´s pretty easy to do bad things. The hardest thing is doing good and being good. And now Angel is back to square one. 🙁

---------- Post added at 01:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 PM ----------

Kean agrees: I actually never said any of those things, if you check some of the social studies threads that ask if any of use believe in soulmates and love at first site you can see where I actually stand on those matters.

Oh snap. Sorry i should have rephrased that sentence. I just meant you were right that these things exist in their world. It wasn´t about your beliefs. Damn...

 

[Kean]

Oh snap. Sorry i should have rephrased that sentence. I just meant you were right that these things exist in their world. It wasn´t about your beliefs. Damn...

No problem, just wanted to clarify.

 

[GrrArghx]

Perhaps i should give the comics a try. I've just never really read any Comics before and never previously been interested in doing so.

Go for it! I didn't want to read the comics either. I've never read a comic book before and after reading recaps I thought it would be pointless. But, I finally sat down and read 'em and I can say they're WAY less 'bad' than I thought.

Yes, I'd prefer if they weren't canon and I still have a hard time grasping the fact that they are, but for the most part they're interesting, if not entertaining to follow 🙂

 

[SpaceLord]

ANGEL: Sex is fun!

BUFFY: Yes! Sex is fun! But should we destroy the world, and let all of our friends and family die just to have all of this fun sex and make super-babies?

ANGEL: I think so...?

BUFFY: No, I think we should not let our families die gruesomely just so we can have all of this fun sex.

ANGEL: Oh! I never thought of it like that. Yeah, I'm good again! Just let me change back into my old clothes, and now I'm a hero once more!

WILLOW: Gee whiz Angel, I'm going to give you a mighty big talking to about murdering all of those people!

[Angel flashes a sheepish apologetic "oops" look]

WILLOW: Aw, I can't stay mad at you ya big lug!

SPIKE: Here I am to save the day old friends!

Pretty much sums it up and now we will have season finale of 5 issues where it turns out it's not Angels fault at all and what he did is not really that bad and he really is an all around nice guy.

My bet is that in the end it will be the one armed man that did it. The characters might have been done better in this issue but I can't see any way to turn this one around, it has hit the iceberg a long time back and now the band is still playing while the ship is sinking.

 

[Tranquillity]

Kean Said: I'm also concerned about how Joss will fill in all the blanks too. I believe Angel is on the right path NOW but I still think what we should have gotten over the summer was a 3 issue arc dealing with how he went from ATF to Twilight

OMG Yes - that would have been just the thing to counter all these mixrd feelings

Mumrik said: And I think the duster Buffy changed into was Nikki Wood's (which Spike took after taking it from her), which was neat.

You are right and I can't believe I didn't notice that! I just assumed she was still in the Spanish mourning clothes. Perhaps this is why both she and Spike are wearing gold pinkie rings?

 

[frankie]

Thanks for the info and recaps people. So I've pretty much broken it down into three scenarios.

Scenario 1. The Universe uses Buffy's natural love and attraction to Angel to make her do it's bidding. Aka. Boink like a bunny.
Scenario 2. The Universe uses Buffy's natural love and attraction to Angel to make her do it's bidding. It's within her to stop herself, to fight her way out of it's thrall, but it a difficult fight and it just feels sooooo goooood. Cue Barry White music.
Scenario 3. " So, Angel...I see you're wearing leather pants...... Let's Freak!!!!" Cue Bow Chicka Bow Wow music.

Angel is a lot more difficult to figure out. The scene where she reminds him of who he is sounds like it could have been a very epic Buffy/Angel moment, like their scene in amends, where she fights for him and show's him his purpose. Yet this sounds very rushed to me. Maybe more time should be spent on the character moments, and less on the naughty stuff from the previous issue. Not that I'm not a fan of naughty stuff. Yay naughty stuff, just, why rush such an important moment.

I don't quite have the fear that my favorite character Buffy is ruined for me anymore, Angel on the other hand, damn, there's a lot of work to do to sort out his character.

I doubt I'll continue to read the comics anyway, simply because I've never warmed to them, they're not my kind of comic, or my kind of Buffy. 🙂 It would be nice to see them end well though.

 

[LyteHouse]

I have a hard time imagining that to be honest. Not because I think he's worth saving but because of the fact that IDW would throw a fit.

Bill Willingham already threw a fit over this. XD

For the longest time many people, myself included, could never entertain the notion that Twilight might potentially be Angel because his character was licenced to a rival publisher.

Look how that turned out.

I think its fair game that Angel could (and can) die.

Besides, in the Buffy-verse - and especially in comic book lore - death doesn't necessarily mean gone forever.

Either way, someone's gonna die. Giles is my second choice. =P

 

[Mumrik]

And I think the duster Buffy changed into was Nikki Wood's (which Spike took after taking it from her), which was neat.

lol, I just noticed that my sentence there made no sense - "took after taking it from her" - I'm such a genius. What I MEANT was that he took it after killing her. That's what you get from posting when in a rush and not proof-reading it, kids! 😉

 

[Krj2501]

Well - I think issue #35 - basically established that Angel and Twilight aren't the same. Twilight is a place, basically a alternate reality. It also established that "Twilight" or Angel was never the "real" big bad of the Season. But instead the massive demon armies return to the Earth are the "Real Big Bad".

That's the foe that the gang is going to have to face in the last 5 issues.

 

[crazysoulless]

So many fans thought that Anya, Willow, Andrew, Faith, and Lilah could be redeemed after everything they've done. I don't see why the things that Angel has done are worse. Willow tried to destroy the world, erased people's memories, zapped humans with lightning bolts, created a comet to kill humans. Faith wanted to help Mayor Wilkins kill thousands, quasi-raped Buffy and Riley, tortured Wesley, strangled Xander and Buffy, shot Angel with a poisoned arrow, was going to kill Joyce. Anya tortured, mutilated, and/or killed probably over 100,000 people. Andrew helped torment Buffy for eight months and murdered Jonathon. Lilah worked for Wolfram & Hart for years.

Even Andrew told the First Evil that most of Buffy's people are murderers. And Xander said in Selfless that when their friends go evil and start killing people they help them.

 

[Don]

decent issue. Spike's return made everything ok.

1)what's up with that ship? I havent seen Angel much at all (the series) and I haven't read any Angel comics... am i supposed to be able to recognize this ship as spike's ship?

2) so.... does buffy know that it's spike in there? when she says "this is gunna be bad" or whatever she says, does that mean she knows spike and angel are going to be awkward toward one another, or is she just afraid of the giant ship?

3) does buffy know spike is alive? if she does, then i'm upset.

finally, just a quick rant-- so, twilight finally happened. 35 issues of building up to find out what twilight is, and boy did we get it. However, buffy turned it all down. so, what i'm saying is... are we just going to get five issues of the gang cleaning up the mess that was made from the tear in reality? bc, if that's the case.... no thanks, s8.

 

[Superstar]

are we just going to get five issues of the gang cleaning up the mess that was made from the tear in reality?

You mean the Blue Mean... err Green Meanies? Good thing Spike is older than sixty-four.
My question: is Spike supposed to be "Nowhere Man"?

 

[GrimsWatcher]

The Spike ship reminds me of something from the Watchmen. Not liking it. Issue was fine, wish it explained a little more than it did, but solid enough. Things rush along so quickly though, and conversations are short. They just made it to Twilight, and now they are already out. I figured they'd spend more time there.

 

[crazysoulless]

The only redonkilously huge problem I have with S8 is that each issue isn't long enough. There is so much I absolutely love about this season. I wanted more detail in each installment. Each conversation to be longer. More scenes between each character. It's too bad that they couldn't each be 50 pages instead of 25.

I remember there was an issue in the AtF graphic novels that had Illyria constantly jumping everyone through time (past and present) because she was heartbroken over having killed Fred, destroyed Fresley, and Wesley's death. One panel showed flying cars which reminded me of when Buffy was two hundred years in the future.

 

[Anya2012]

I haven't been able to get this issue yet so let me get this straight:

Angel isn't Twilight but Twilight was in control of him?

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Scenario 1. The Universe uses Buffy's natural love and attraction to Angel to make her do it's bidding. Aka. Boink like a bunny.

The implication is that Bangel was the Universe's doing since day one. It was destiny, and just proof that the "Twilight Prophecy" had been right all along (Giles knew of it since before he even met Buffy or Angel).

Angel is a lot more difficult to figure out. The scene where she reminds him of who he is sounds like it could have been a very epic Buffy/Angel moment, like their scene in amends, where she fights for him and show's him his purpose. Yet this sounds very rushed to me. Maybe more time should be spent on the character moments, and less on the naughty stuff from the previous issue. Not that I'm not a fan of naughty stuff. Yay naughty stuff, just, why rush such an important moment.

I don't quite have the fear that my favorite character Buffy is ruined for me anymore, Angel on the other hand, damn, there's a lot of work to do to sort out his character.

I doubt I'll continue to read the comics anyway, simply because I've never warmed to them, they're not my kind of comic, or my kind of Buffy. 🙂 It would be nice to see them end well though.

I think it was very epic. But it was epic in a cheesy comic book kind of way, not in a Whedonesque kind of way.

Using its own logic it makes sense, but it throws out basically all of the post-BS3 character growth that Buffy & Angel went through.

Angel doesn't have a remote trace of the "Champion" that Doyle & Cordy molded him into. He literally seems to have forgotten, or the entire Angel series was retconned. Imo, it almost makes more sense if you only watch BS1-3 & BS7.

The fact that Buffy has to explain to Angel that people make their own destiny and every life is precious makes the issue absurd. Those principles were Angel's calling card on his show, and his life's mission, but Tw(Angel) appears to have never heard any of that before.

---------- Post added at 01:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 AM ----------

I haven't been able to get this issue yet so let me get this straight:

Angel isn't Twilight but Twilight was in control of him?

Twilight is a place, Twilight is a state of mind, Twilight is Earth's Destiny in its next step of evolution, Twilight is a Prophecy, Twilight is a cult.

Twilight wasn't controlling Angel, he just liked what Twilight was selling (Buffy & him being together in exchange for the destruction of humanity). Then Buffy explained to Angel that murder is wrong...

 

[Kean]

Twilight wasn't controlling Angel, he just liked what Twilight was selling

That's an interpretation, that's not fact at all. The few instances when the whys and the hows of Twilight and Angel have been addressed in the comic have actually suggested he was being controlled or at least under Twilight's influence.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

decent issue. Spike's return made everything ok.

1)what's up with that ship? I havent seen Angel much at all (the series) and I haven't read any Angel comics... am i supposed to be able to recognize this ship as spike's ship?

Spike lives in a Yellow Submarine. :smile3:

We haven't seen that vehicle before. Georges just said in a Q&A that Joss wanted something with a "Mad Max" feel. I see a lot of similarities between Spike arriving in this thing, and Victor arriving in his huge tank thing in the final episode of "Dollhouse."

I'm curious to see who's crewing that thing, if anyone.

2) so.... does buffy know that it's spike in there? when she says "this is gunna be bad" or whatever she says, does that mean she knows spike and angel are going to be awkward toward one another, or is she just afraid of the giant ship?

Willow obviously knew that the ship's arrival was a good thing, but she has magic, and I think she knows more about what Spike's been up to than she's been telling.

It's hard to tell if Buffy's reaction was because she knew it was Spike and she didn't want to have to deal with the love triangle now on top of everything, or if she just assumed a huge evil-looking ship turning up at this moment was going to be full of demons or hellgods or something. I'm thinking probably the latter.

3) does buffy know spike is alive? if she does, then i'm upset.

In the letter column for this issue, Scott Allie says that Buffy knows everything Andrew knows, so yes... she must know Spike is alive. I agree it sucks that we never got to see her find that out.

finally, just a quick rant-- so, twilight finally happened. 35 issues of building up to find out what twilight is, and boy did we get it. However, buffy turned it all down. so, what i'm saying is... are we just going to get five issues of the gang cleaning up the mess that was made from the tear in reality? bc, if that's the case.... no thanks, s8.

Well, by this time millions of people must be dead as a result of demon attacks, earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis and all of the other things they've been monitoring. And it's still happening. Buffy and Angel rejecting Twilight doesn't mean all of that just goes away and all those people come back to life. They have five issues to try and make that right. We still have the Apocalypse from "Fray" to come.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Spike lives in a Yellow Submarine.

We haven't seen that vehicle before. Georges just said in a Q&A that Joss wanted something with a "Mad Max" feel. I see a lot of similarities between Spike arriving in this thing, and Victor arriving in his huge tank thing in the final episode of "Dollhouse."

I'm curious to see who's crewing that thing, if anyone.

My first thought was it´s a freakin time machine and the name Jules Verne popped into my head.

Now you´ve mentioned it yes it reminds of that scene too.

Spider and the spikettes? Gunn,Illyria,Kate(would be awesome),Connor and maybe even Nina could be in there too i mean this thing is huge.

Willow obviously knew that the ship's arrival was a good thing, but she has magic, and I think she knows more about what Spike's been up to than she's been telling.

It's hard to tell if Buffy's reaction was because she knew it was Spike and she didn't want to have to deal with the love triangle now on top of everything, or if she just assumed a huge evil-looking ship turning up at this moment was going to be full of demons or hellgods or something. I'm thinking probably the latter.

I´m concerned about Willows role in all that mess. It looks like nothing can surprise her anymore. Is she working for Twilight or for Spike? Is she really on the good side? I don´t know but something feels off about her.

In the letter column for this issue, Scott Allie says that Buffy knows everything Andrew knows, so yes... she must know Spike is alive. I agree it sucks that we never got to see her find that out.

I agree. A beautiful and intense moment like that and we didn´t had the chance to see it? WTF! This sucks. Is Andrew spying on Giles for Buffy? What does she knows everything what Andrew knows exactly mean?

Well, by this time millions of people must be dead as a result of demon attacks, earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis and all of the other things they've been monitoring. And it's still happening. Buffy and Angel rejecting Twilight doesn't mean all of that just goes away and all those people come back to life. They have five issues to try and make that right. We still have the Apocalypse from "Fray" to come.

I totally agree with you. I want to see what happened to the world during their sexathon and how the humans react now that they know demons are real. Every country would immediatley declare war and try to fight the demons. I know it´s fiction but i still want a explanation. Humans don´t just give up. They will fight for their lives and ironically they need the slayers now more than ever.