Discussion of 8.35 "Twilight Part 4" - Released 5/05/10 (Dark Horse)

[AndrewCrossett]

My first thought was it´s a freakin time machine

It may very well be. Time travel would be about the only way to undo the damage here, and the #37 cover shows Buffy back in high school.

Spider and the spikettes? Gunn,Illyria,Kate(would be awesome),Connor and maybe even Nina could be in there too i mean this thing is huge.

I would love it if Spider and the Spikettes or Illyria was in there, but unless Dark Horse has some secret agreement with IDW, it won't happen.

I´m concerned about Willows role in all that mess. It looks like nothing can surprise her anymore. Is she working for Twilight or for Spike? Is she really on the good side? I don´t know but something feels off about her.

I'm pretty sure she's on Team Good right now. Who knows about the future. When that demon saw Willow and Amy and said "you smell both good and evil," I don't think he meant that Amy was evil and Willow was good... I think he meant he smelled good and evil on both of them.

I agree. A beautiful and intense moment like that and we didn´t had the chance to see it? WTF! This sucks. Is Andrew spying on Giles for Buffy? What does she knows everything what Andrew knows exactly mean?

Of course when Allie wrote that, he was referring to how Buffy knew about Cordelia's death. Spike did specifically ask Andrew not to tell Buffy about him, so it's possible she still doesn't know if Spike himself never got around to telling her himself.

I totally agree with you. I want to see what happened to the world during their sexathon and how the humans react now that they know demons are real. Every country would immediatley declare war and try to fight the demons. I know it´s fiction but i still want a explanation. Humans don´t just give up. They will fight for their lives and ironically they need the slayers now more than ever.

Humanity isn't prepared to fight the demons, because they've spent the past year or two being told that demons are their friends. It was all part of Twilight's plan to soften them up for the slaughter, I think.

I'm interested to see how the world's vampires are behaving right now.

 

[Five]

I think Buffy knows. Come on, it's been years...! Of course there's communication between the teams, there already was during the TV shows... Plus, why else would she have said "Oh, this is gonna be bad" when she saw Spike's machine-thingy ?!

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Great points, all! Here are a few I'd like to address:

BUT I can't believe that he was willing to give up everything and everyone to start a new world with Buffy - including his friends, his family, his son. What the hell, hero?

This pretty much sums up my reasoning. It's all hard to swallow, even for Angel.

Here is my question:

What is up with Angels curse now? We know that while he was under the thrall of Twilight he was invincible, and that included his curse. Now that he was supposably rejected Twilight to follow Buffy into the Fray - is he back to square one? Could he lose his soul again if him and Buffy slept together again?

I really just want to know, is there an explanation for why she had sex with him. Is it a just a case of, "oh, it's Angel and I love him, let's give into the lust", if so, well I'm not as much in the " Yay, Buffy's back " parade."

I am choosing to interpret it as Buffy being under the control of "Twilight."

This was the first Buffy issue I outright enjoyed in over a year, but plotwise, it could be summed up like this:

ANGEL: Sex is fun!

BUFFY: Yes! Sex is fun! But should we destroy the world, and let all of our friends and family die just to have all of this fun sex and make super-babies?

ANGEL: I think so...?

BUFFY: No, I think we should not let our families die gruesomely just so we can have all of this fun sex.

ANGEL: Oh! I never thought of it like that. Yeah, I'm good again! Just let me change back into my old clothes, and now I'm a hero once more!

WILLOW: Gee whiz Angel, I'm going to give you a mighty big talking to about murdering all of those people!

[Angel flashes a sheepish apologetic "oops" look]

WILLOW: Aw, I can't stay mad at you ya big lug!

SPIKE: Here I am to save the day old friends!

LOL! This is great. 🙂

Take me for an example. I´ve done some good things but mostly really bad things and i know i will never be able to forgive myself because the bad things are always there to remind me who i really am. But i live with it. Every second. Every hour. Every day.
Because i have to. This is who i am and you can´t change the past. Ever. I assure you all i´m fine. Really.

The point is it doesn´t matter how much good you do it´s never enough and maybe Angel feels the way i do.

I think you have a really good point, here. Angel has always felt that he hasn't done enough. Personally, I think he just got disillusioned, and that's why he gave up and agreed to the whole Twilight-scheme.

It's hard - really hard - to keep fighting and fighting and in the end, get nowhere. Sure, Angel has saved lives, but people have died because of him, too. Many people. His friends. People he was loved. He's failed in many respects. It's easier to be evil than it is to be good. Angel is a character who has always lived in that gray area. We'll see if he has enough strength to find his way back to what he was - a HERO, like Buffy.

Also, in agreement with Kean - I think Angel's choice to leave behind the Destiny's Plan for them and Evolution and all that was out of love for Buffy. He admires her. Once again she has inspired him to do the right thing, and to fight the good fight.

Yet, it's a long road back to redemption for him. He has really messed up this time.

Also, I love how you'd related the Buffyverse to your own life. This is the reason why we all keep coming back to this show and to these characters - because they're so human and we can all relate to them so well.

Kean said there is such thing as love at first sight,destined love and soulmates but i still don´t believe something like that exists in the real world but it´s a fact in "their" world.

Exactly. I don't really believe in soul mates and love at first site, either. But it is a truth in this universe - at least for B and A.

How could she fall so easily for him? [/quote]
I think BuffyverseFan is right - Buffy was under the control of the Universe - it was urging her on as Angel said - she didn't have full control of herself. This is what I choose to believe.

The question is why would you chose to have sex with someone who murdered so many people only hours ago? Love is strong and powerfull i get it but is it possible that you suddenly forget all the bad things the person caused? Maybe that was the exact moment the universe kicked in she remembered all the bad things he had done but the universe somehow made her forget everything so they can engage in the cosmic sex to enter Twilight. Sorry but this sounds like rape to me again.

*sigh*
This is the question. Buffy has to atone, too, for what she's done. The fact of the matter is - as much as I don't want to believe it - Buffy and Angel's love is undeniable and far more powerful than I had thought. It hasn't waned - it's only strengthened. Regardless of the damage their love causes, it won't ever cease, until one of them is dead. Angel could never do anything that would lose Buffy's love. It's unconditional.
I thought what he has done for turn her off to him, but she seems more in love with him than ever.

And you're right what Angel has done IS insane. Yet, Buffy has forgiven him. Actually, she's more than forgiven him - she's invited him to fight by her side for her a friends - a sacred right only reserved for people she trusts.

The soul doesn´t made Angel a better person. Everybody can be evil and it´s pretty easy to do bad things. The hardest thing is doing good and being good. And now Angel is back to square one.

You read my mind.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Joan the Vampire Slayer agrees: Great points. Also, what's up with Angel's curse?

My first theory is: He is human now. There is no evidence that he is still a vampire and it got me thinking. The curse only affects the demon inside him but if he became human the curse would be gone for good. IWRY made that point very clear.

My second theory is: Twangel somehow negated the effect of the curse. The universe is not interested in Angelus so it would do everything to keep him out of it. Angelus would probably screw and kill her and their plan would fail.

My third theory is: Angel is still cursed but he couldn´t achieve the true happiness because of the influence of the universe. Correct me if i´m wrong but the true happiness moment is only achievable through sex right? It´s also possible that he didn´t felt it "right".

These are my main theories about the curse. I got some more theories but they are more complicated and pretty twisted.

We know for sure that he is not a alternate universe Angel,a robot(?) or from the future(was it already confirmed?).

A hilarious scene just popped into my head i would die to see.

A second Angel steps out off the machine thingy after Spike and he yells: Twilight! Give me my body back or i stomp you into the ground. :biggrin3:

 

[Kean]

I thought Scott Allie confirmed that Angel's invincibility is an "all over" kinda deal and it extends to his curse?

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Georges Jeanty said something interesting in a Q&A just today... he mentioned that it was Brad Meltzer who pitched this arc to Joss, and got the green light to go ahead and write it. So this was really Meltzer's take on the characters and not his. It's still canonical, of course, but it seems like we might get a somewhat different look at things once it's Joss back telling his own story.

Since he decided to write the last arc himself rather than this one, it's probably the more important one.

 

[SpaceLord]

In the letter column for this issue, Scott Allie says that Buffy knows everything Andrew knows, so yes... she must know Spike is alive. I agree it sucks that we never got to see her find that out.

Well that is surprising considering that in issue 1 Buffy don't understand the funny thing about her Rome decoy, as in why her dating the Imortal would be funny. Of course I'm of the opinion that Scott Allie and the writers pretty much just makes sure that if they don't want Buffy to be surprised she won't be. It's just the way they do things in order to hammer the puzzle together even if the pieces don't fit.

 

[Kean]

Georges Jeanty said something interesting in a Q&A just today... he mentioned that it was Brad Meltzer who pitched this arc to Joss, and got the green light to go ahead and write it. So this was really Meltzer's take on the characters and not his. It's still canonical, of course, but it seems like we might get a somewhat different look at things once it's Joss back telling his own story.

Since he decided to write the last arc himself rather than this one, it's probably the more important one.

I don't know if I can go along with that. Ok Joss didn't come up with the idea for this arc but he still gave it the OK. He signed off with what Meltzer wrote, to me that is as good as Joss writing it becuase if he didn't support it it wouldn't have happened.

If we go down this road then we can essentially significantly reduce the canon from the show that didn't come from Joss's pen and Joss's imagination. I'm sure hundreds of ideas were pitched by other writers during Buffy's run that Joss gave the go ahead to. Are they suddenly not Joss's story now?

I just think that is dangerous territory to be going into.

Buffyverse Fan agrees: It doesn't makes sense either way. If Twilight was controlling him, how did he switch sides so easily? Buffy pretty much asked him if he wanted to and he said yes. What kind of mind control works like that?

I hear you, I really do. However, I think that us casting judgement on a story that still has five installments to go is rather foolish. To me, damning Angel and Buffy at this stage in the season, when we know there is so much we still have to learn, is like watching Enemies and then turning it off when Angel punches Buffy because it is clear that he is evil and what else could you possibly need to know beyond that? It is only in that last act that everything makes sense, makes everything click and makes that episode fantastic. Also, it was only after that last act that we realised what consequences had truly been rendered.

Joss has this habit of writing stories that refuse to make sense until the very last line. I just don't think we are doing ourselves any favours by speaking about Angel, Buffy, the arc and the season in general in this manner.

When we know everything, then is the time for judgement.

 

[Tranquillity]

To read Brad Meltzers take on the issue here is the monthly Buffy column from CBR:

BEHIND BUFFY SEASON 8: - Comic Book Resources

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I don't know if I can go along with that. Ok Joss didn't come up with the idea for this arc but he still gave it the OK. He signed off with what Meltzer wrote, to me that is as good as Joss writing it becuase if he didn't support it it wouldn't have happened.

Exactly, even David Fury (the #2 person of the Buffyverse) said that Joss would read a script and flat out tell him "no" if he didn't like it, even when Fury was the Show Runner of Angel.

I hear you, I really do. However, I think that us casting judgement on a story that still has five installments to go is rather foolish. To me, damning Angel and Buffy at this stage in the season, when we know there is so much we still have to learn, is like watching Enemies and then turning it off when Angel punches Buffy because it is clear that he is evil and what else could you possibly need to know beyond that? It is only in that last act that everything makes sense, makes everything click and makes that episode fantastic. Also, it was only after that last act that we realised what consequences had truly been rendered.

Joss has this habit of writing stories that refuse to make sense until the very last line. I just don't think we are doing ourselves any favours by speaking about Angel, Buffy, the arc and the season in general in this manner.

When we know everything, then is the time for judgement.

Well, this would be more along the lines of saying "what the heck" after Cordy killed Lilah, since that's how an episode ended, and this "episode"/arc ended on this note.

Kean, I would've agreed with you a few months ago, but look at Dollhouse. I happened to love the end of that series, but it didn't make sense.

At best, Topher's mind-wiping gun would be as effective as a handgun on a battlefield (point-blank incapacitation). It would still rack up a fraction of the "Kills"/"Wipes" of a semiautomatic weapon. Yet Whedon's end note was that somehow a corporation of guys in suits conquered not just local and federal law enforcement, but the US Military. That's ridiculous based on even the best Rossum tech we've seen. That's not to mention the higher grade tech the military has like fighter jets & tanks. I don't care how high Echo can kick, let's see an Active spar with a tank.

Then there's the core principle of the series which was people's memories can be altered and stored, yet the final scene had people regaining their memories without the use of a wedge...

I'm sorry, but with that style of logic, I don't see Whedon pulling this one out.

I sure hope he does though...

 

[Superstar]

When we know everything, then is the time for judgement.

Actually, you don't need to know every single detail to figure out the basic gameplan.

Over the seasons the Big Bads have gotten progressively bigger and badder.
s1 = The Master (reworking of the original movie script) [I wanna take over the world, Pinky]
s2 = Angelus (nastybad vampire lover) [I wanna send the world to Hell, Pinky]
s3 = Mayor (I just wanna be a demon!) [I still just wanna be a demon!, Pinky]
s4 = Adam (the government uber-Frankenstein monster) [I wanna take over the world, Pinky]
s5 = A Hellgod (and nutty at that) [I wanna bring Hell to the world, Pinky]
s6 = Willow (would-be destroyer of the earth) [I just want to world to end, Pinky]
s7 = nastybad Evil incarnate (Big overture. Little show) [I want to take over everyone in the world, Pinky]
s8 = Existence itself (or what I call "the Buffyverse") [I just want a new world, Pinky]

So where exactly do you go from there? Seriously.
This is no-brainer stuff. Season 8 is the swan-song for the "Buffyverse".
The next run of comics is the reboot. Again, no-brainer stuff.

 

[sosa lola]

I loved this issue to pieces so I'm gonna fangirl it and gush! 🙂

I'm not gonna talk about Paradise and Twilight, if you wanna read a wonderful, insightful review about them, gotta check stormwreath's wonderful and helpful review. Always a pleasure to read his thoughts.

Anyway, I'm gonna talk about what I enjoy best about BtVS. Characters and their relationships with each other.

First, Buffy, I don't think I have as much issues with her characterizations as many do. All season, we had Buffy feeling disconnected as a leader, so burdened with responsibilities, going against her principles to keep her Slayers safe and content, doing her best to push potential loves away (Xander by asking him to ask Renee out, and Satsu by telling her about how those who loved her end up in pain or leaving), called a terrorist by humans, chased away by demons and humans, crushed that her empowerment spell in Chosen didn't even make it to history books in Fray's time, even more crushed because she had to kill her best friend, humans taking the vampires' side over the Slayers', dealing with fame and not even the good kind, I'm talking Osama Bin Laden fame, had to run away to Tibet and by doing that endangering Oz and his family, finally feeling content and happy after losing her powers and finally able to confess her feelings for Xander knowing that she wouldn't hurt him as an ordinary human only to have all her hopes squashed by the sight of him kissing her sister, going into war against humans –those Buffy always protected, all betraying her and trying to kill her and her people- having so many of her Slayers killed, Riley injured badly, and then when she had the courage to confess to Xander that she loved him, he turned her down, not only that, but for the third time in her life a man tells her how she actually feels and doesn't believe her, and then when she started to feel content with her new powers, she's told she's sucking life out of her Slayers to gain those powers, and FINALLY the biggest blow of them all, Angel is behind the mask of the season's mass murderer.

Seriously, POOR BUFFY! 🙁

Anyway, "Don't you wanna be happy?" Angel asks. And Buffy does. She's so tired. She wants a moment of peace. Just a moment. She wants to forget about it all, believe Angel and just be loved again. It's been a rough year, probably the roughest, being back from heaven doesn't compare to the shit she's facing right now. "This isn't real, but I just wanna feel." Not to mention, it had been foreshadowed that Buffy wanted to give in in Retreat, can't blame her when she's globally running away from humans and demons who wants her and her friends dead.

Buffy loses herself in passionate sex with a push from the universe. It's one hell of a sex. The second Buffy wakes up from the sensation, she's back to business. Looking at her surroundings, she realizes that it's a trap, takes a fighting pose, and breaks my heart when she says that whenever she catches her breath, something bad happens.

The poisoned apple feels more like a reference to Snow White than Adam and Eve. Which ties again with fairy tale theme of the season. See Emmie's essay.

I'm so happy that Satsu is back. I've read a lot of complains accusing Satsu of being a selfish brat for leaving a fight because she's upset with Buffy. I knew she's be back once she cooled down.

I understand why Giles never said a thing about Twilight before. He'd always thought it was a myth, some sort of fairytale, I'm not sure when he started to realize that it's not a myth, though. Perhaps when Buffy had sent him the symbol of Twilight in #1.

Twilight has a strong hold on its subjects -and obviously Angel and Buffy are his subjects-which suggests that Angel wasn't in his right mind when he was dressed as Twilight.

Xander doesn't really care about Twilight, the myth, the beginning of time and all that crap. He just wants to know why they're being attacked, and Giles is frustrating him to no end with his grieved tone and stalling with info. Seriously, dude, spill it out. Cut to the chase. Giles does grate.

Also, no matter how much I hear about S8 writing those characters OOC, I'm sorry, but Xander never felt OOC in the entire run of this season. His question about the reason behind Angel turning into a killer instead of going "I told you so" shows how far he's grown. I'm just sick of reading fanfics that never acknowledge Xander's character growth after Selfless and still paint him as a vampire-hater (specifically Angel and Spike hater).

I really, really love Willow's expression when Giles says "Utterly expendable." Wonderful job, Jeanty!

Aw, I loved Dawn's "Y'hear me, Xander?"

And what I love even more, Xander shouting orders at Kennedy and her "Already on it!" Leader Xander. Drools. He does remind me of Buffy in S7 when he says "Grab whatever weapons you can find." Buffy taught him well. If only we could get an issue about that year and a half with Buffy giving Xander pointers and helping him become the leader he is right now. Someone write this missing scene for me, please?

I LOVED Andrew protecting Warren and getting hurt because of it. I love that he still cares. And I love Warren's concern for Andrew even more. I do think Warren did care about Andrew, going after Buffy with a gun had something to do with losing Andrew and Jonathan, as Xander pointed out, "He won't be much good without his friends." I actually love that Warren has humanity in him and he's not really a black/white character.

Amy freaking out about Warren's display of concern disturbed me. Especially when I'd recently watched The Witch (S1). What happened to old sweet Amy? 🙁

I love Buffy's pointed TWILIGHT when addressing Angel. She's still confused and upset about what he had done while in a mask, but knows it's not the right time to discuss that when they're trapped in some sort of paradise.

Angel corrects her that he's not Twilight. Twilight is the place that had apparently controlled him throughout the season. Then starts saying mushy stuff that Buffy mocks and find cheesy.

Angel compares Buffy with Xander, that she jokes to hide her true feelings of fear, pain, sorrow, nervousness… etc. But Buffy corrects him by saying that Xander doesn't hide when he jokes anymore, he jokes because he enjoys joking. Angel is talking about Xander the kid, and much like Angel doesn't know Buffy anymore, he doesn't know Xander anymore either. (I'm actually thrilled that Angel noticed that about Xander in the first place. Aw, the Angel/Xander fan in me is squealing.)

Buffy accusing Angel of talking like Giles is a relief. Both of them grate with their incomprehensive babbling.

Aw, I'm so happy that in the middle of it all, Buffy's sole concern is about her friends.

Angel's reaction to finding out about what's happening to Earth is interesting. He's shocked and the first thing that pops to his head is helping them, fixing it, he and Buffy can fix everything. Then comes the interesting part; "After all these centuries, no more fighting, no more "failing", no more dying. We're finally going to be happy." Just like Buffy, Angel had been through hell, in #33, he mentions LA, something awful happened in LA and caused Angel to fall for Twilight's promises, caused him to give up. (I'm guessing we'll find out in Joss' arc.)

Buffy's eyes, her tears, poor thing wants to be happy, she hasn't been happy in a long, long time. The last time I remember Buffy being happy was the beginning of S5, after then it all went downhill for her.

I love Faith carrying Andrew over her shoulder. Andrew as part of the Scoobies, my heart squeezes for him!

Aw! Xander/Faith moment! Xander touches Faith's shoulder, and notes in concern, "You're bleeding."

Faith points out that she's a Slayer again, but the other girls aren't. I've read a neat theory about that in *********.

Oooh, angry Willow is ruthless. I love her.

Angel doesn't want to give up Twilight. I'm guessing he's got nothing to live for in Earth. Did Connor die? He tells Buffy that her friends can handle it without her, they managed to when she was dead. Apparently Angel didn't get the memo that Buffy's friends were the ones who brought her back because they couldn't handle life without her.

Who can finish Buffy's sentence: "My friends are different than…."

Buffy is fighting for her friends. Not humanity. I can't blame her. Humanity had been nothing but horrid to her, chasing her around, trying their best to kill her and the people she loves, preferring vampires over her, calling her a terrorist. But Buffy's friends were there from the beginning. They're the ones who helped her throughout the years and still are. They're always there when it counts, they NEVER left her, and if they did (like Willow and Giles), they always came back. And stayed. To help her. They're worth sacrificing heaven and paradise for.

Xander yelling Buffy's name. "She can't hear you." "She can. She always can." Squee!

"Don’t you know me by now, Angel? I NEVER do what I'm meant for." One of Buffy's best lines since "The thing about changing the world… once you do it, the world’s all different."

Jeanty does a great job conveying emotions. Buffy's determined expression when she tears into the white page, her stubborn, rebellious smile when she said "Yup." And then Angel's heartbroken expression because she chose her friends over him, her sad expression because she realizes she's giving him up as well as internal happiness, and then Angel's "Yeah, like I didn't know she'd do that. Oh, well."

"Okay. Let's go." My favorite Angel expression. 🙂

I love Buffy tying her hair back as a sign of going to business. And finally both of them get back to their clothes and being themselves instead of wearing other Slayers and vampires' clothes.

My favorite pages are Buffy and Angel using their powers to beat the demons, fighting side by side, beating those demons like a flash around Xander, Giles and Dawn who yell, "Buffy!" "Buffy!" "Buffy!" That moment made me wish S8 was on TV, it's so powerful.

"And Twilight!" Willow sneers. She's pissed at Angel, and Angel knows he had it coming.

Buffy apologizing to Willow, and Willow's sarcastic yet understanding line. Wonderful panel.

Does Willow know that Spike is coming? "Oh, this is gonna be good."

When his ship-thingie landed, Willow seems to have a nervous smile on her lips. Giles takes his glasses and is shocked. Faith touches her bleeding lips and she's shocked. Dawn is shocked. Warren and Xander glare at it. Satsu appears interested. Angel is curious. Buffy is shocked.

Spike stands in front of them! And shit, do we have to wait three months for the next issue?!!!!

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Angel doesn't want to give up Twilight. I'm guessing he's got nothing to live for in Earth. Did Connor die?

I loved the issue too, just because it was a fun read, but this aspect shows it was poorly thought out, imo, an absurd betrayal of Angel's character.

Remember this guy:
Season 4
HIGH PRIEST
What is it you think you fight for, dead thing? Valor? What you call justice? Your friends are dead... most likely. Or so you believe, so it's not for them you fight.

ANGEL
(still fighting) I'm trying to save my world.

HIGH PRIEST
Your world?! A world that doesn't care for you? Doesn't want you.

ANGEL
(still fighting) It needs me.


ANGEL
(from behind her) Jasmine, it's over. You've lost.

JASMINE
(turns to face Angel) I've lost? Do you have any idea what you've done?

ANGEL
What I had to do.

JASMINE
No. No, Angel. There are no absolutes. No right and wrong. Haven't you learned anything working for the Powers? There are only choices. I offered paradise. You chose this!

ANGEL
Because I could. Because that's what you took away from us. Choice.

JASMINE
And look what free will has gotten you.

ANGEL
Hey, I didn't say we were smart. I said it's our right. It's what makes us human.

JASMINE
But you're not human.

ANGEL
Working on it. (Jasmine turns to walk away) Where you going?

JASMINE
(walking away) Leave me alone.

ANGEL
Sorry, but... can't do that.

JASMINE
What? You've taken everything. You're gonna try to kill me now, as if you could.

ANGEL
Maybe not. But I'll die before I let you hurt anyone else.

JASMINE
You're already dead!

ANGEL
You know what I mean. It ends right here.

JASMINE
(crying) Why do you hate me so much?

ANGEL
Let's run down the list, huh? Rain of fire, blotting out the sun, enslaving mankind, and, yeah, oh, yeah, hey, you eat people!

JASMINE
Like you never have?

ANGEL
Thousands of people are dead because of what you've done.

JASMINE
(walks up to Angel) And how many will die because of you? I could've stopped it, Angel. All of it. War, disease, poverty. How many precious, beautiful lives would've been saved in a handful of years? Yes, I murdered thousands to save billions. (walks to the edge of the bridge) This world is doomed to drown in its own blood now.

ANGEL
The price was too high, Jasmine. Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing.

JASMINE
Like me?

ANGEL
(walks up to her, stands beside her) Look, we've all done horrible things. All we can do is try and make up for it. So, OK, you know, it's not the world that you wanted, but maybe you can still help us make it better


Season 5
HAMILTON
Why do you keep fighting? You signed away your Shanshu. There's nothing in it for you anymore.

ANGEL
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do.

 

[Kean]

Exactly, even David Fury (the #2 person of the Buffyverse) said that Joss would read a script and flat out tell him "no" if he didn't like it, even when Fury was the Show Runner of Angel.


Well, this would be more along the lines of saying "what the heck" after Cordy killed Lilah, since that's how an episode ended, and this "episode"/arc ended on this note.

Kean, I would've agreed with you a few months ago, but look at Dollhouse. I happened to love the end of that series, but it didn't make sense.

At best, Topher's mind-wiping gun would be as effective as a handgun on a battlefield (point-blank incapacitation). It would still rack up a fraction of the "Kills"/"Wipes" of a semiautomatic weapon. Yet Whedon's end note was that somehow a corporation of guys in suits conquered not just local and federal law enforcement, but the US Military. That's ridiculous based on even the best Rossum tech we've seen. That's not to mention the higher grade tech the military has like fighter jets & tanks. I don't care how high Echo can kick, let's see an Active spar with a tank.

Then there's the core principle of the series which was people's memories can be altered and stored, yet the final scene had people regaining their memories without the use of a wedge...

I'm sorry, but with that style of logic, I don't see Whedon pulling this one out.

I sure hope he does though...

With all due respect, what happened on Dollhouse has absolutely no baring on what is happening on this season or what to expect from Whedon with these characters. You can't compare his work on a show thrown together over lunch, that danced on the precipe of cancellation through the entirity of its 26 episodes and with characters that had only their surfaces scratched to a 14 year old franchise that created a pop culture icon, 12 seasons of television, a mythology all of its own and some of the most layered characters you are likely to find anywhere.

Also, since when have we started rejecting the ridiculous in this verse? I mean we gladly bought Sunnydale as a landlocked coastal town with it's own docks, international airport and world class university? Oh yeah, and one Starbucks.

I get being worried about how he can possibly make Angel make sense but quite frankly if anyone is gona do it, it is Joss Whedon. For all we know the explanation may only be a few lines long...

Buffy: Oz is a werewolf
Faith:*raises eyebrow in question*
Buffy: It's a long story
Oz: I got bit
Buffy: Apparently, not that long

 

[Willow-Tree]

I just really want to know how seriously Joss is taking S8...

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

With all due respect, what happened on Dollhouse has absolutely no baring on what is happening on this season or what to expect from Whedon with these characters. You can't compare his work on a show thrown together over lunch, that danced on the precipe of cancellation through the entirity of its 26 episodes and with characters that had only their surfaces scratched to a 14 year old franchise that created a pop culture icon, 12 seasons of television, a mythology all of its own and some of the most layered characters you are likely to find anywhere.

It's the same writer producer. I fear it means he's peaked.

Also, since when have we started rejecting the ridiculous in this verse?

There's a difference between ridiculous and contradicting yourself. Example: Any form of fiction.

I mean we gladly bought Sunnydale as a landlocked coastal town with it's own docks, international airport and world class university? Oh yeah, and one Starbucks.

Who said Sunnydale was landlocked? Just because the image in the finale didn't show water doesn't mean anything. I could pull up a satellite image of Honolulu, zoomed into the center, and no coast will be visible there either.

I get being worried about how he can possibly make Angel make sense but quite frankly if anyone is gona do it, it is Joss Whedon. For all we know the explanation may only be a few lines long...

Your mind-control theory was the only one that would have made sense, but as of #35, even that one can't work well. It's the worst mind control in history if Buffy asking if he wants to be a hero again can break it. Angel had his life/destiny itself ripped out in Season 4, and even that didn't stop him from protecting his friends. And that mojo was surely too powerful to be overcome by a nod and a wink from Buffy.

It's not a matter of absurdity, it's a matter of contradicting itself, which this surely does in regards to Angel. I'd argue the same with Buffy since she was repulsed by "see, want, take" and then became a bank robber, but Angel's far more pronounced, as he's betrayed his primary mission throughout every season of his show.

 

[Kean]

Who said Sunnydale was landlocked? Just because the image in the finale didn't show water doesn't mean anything. I could pull up a satellite image of Honolulu, zoomed into the center, and no coast will be visible there either.

Well, I'd argue the miles of desert surrounding the desert also points towards SunnyD being landlocked, but even if it wasn't the other points still stand.

Your mind-control theory was the only one that would have made sense, but as of #35, even that one can't work well. It's the worst mind control in history if Buffy asking if he wants to be a hero again can break it.

I'll admit, I didn't see the love shared by them being the thing that broke the Twilight's hold on him. But that was more because I never thought the writers would give us (Bangels) that. However, when you think about it, is it really that hard to buy from the man who suffered hundreds of years of unimaginable torture in Hell, came back a beast but remembered her name, in fact it was Buffy that restored his sense of self. Is it hard to buy from the guy who gave up his humanity for Buffy?

It might be easy for me to buy this because I believe in the ship so much. I get that, but the connection between them is there in canon to be seen. Even after they broke up.

Angel had his life/destiny itself ripped out in Season 4, and even that didn't stop him from protecting his friends.

How do you know that won't happen this time around? Five episodes from the end of Season 4 was Shiny Happy People when Angel was completely under the influence of Jasmine and plotting how to kill Fred with the rest of the gang.

All would have seem lost then too, wouldn't it?

It's not a matter of absurdity, it's a matter of contradicting itself, which this surely does in regards to Angel. I'd argue the same with Buffy since she was repulsed by "see, want, take" and then became a bank robber, but Angel's far more pronounced, as he's betrayed his primary mission throughout every season of his show.

There is a difference between contradicting ones self out of ignorance and carelessness and changing how you operate out of necessity. When Buffy was coming down on Faith's motto of "want, take, have" she didn't have an international organisiation to run and governments on her back. I'm not saying it is right, but I certainly don't think it is evidence of Buffy contradicting who she is. It's Buffy doing what she had to do to survive, the same as Faith did.

As for Angel, he still has five issues to prove that he hasn't turned his back on his mission.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

It's not a matter of absurdity, it's a matter of contradicting itself, which this surely does in regards to Angel. I'd argue the same with Buffy since she was repulsed by "see, want, take" and then became a bank robber,

Well, she was repulsed by it after she was initially seduced by it.

In terms of her bank robbing, she simply redefined it as "see, need, take." People engage in those kinds of moral gymnastics all the time... even good people.

It would be pretty easy for someone in her position to reason that taking insured money from already fabulously-rich people, in order to fund an organization dedicated to saving the world, is morally acceptable.

It wasn't a simple regression to Faith's ethos of "I want that and I'm strong enough to take it, so it's mine." But it was a bad decision. Bad decisions aren't OOC for Buffy, though.

but Angel's far more pronounced, as he's betrayed his primary mission throughout every season of his show.

Yes, and we need a better explanation than we've gotten for why he did it... why did he decide to set himself up as Jasmine II, except instead of killing thousands to save billions, he was willing to kill billions to benefit two.

They have five issues in which to answer that satisfactorily.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I'll admit, I didn't see the love shared by them being the thing that broke the Twilight's hold on him. But that was more because I never thought the writers would give us (Bangels) that. However, when you think about it, is it really that hard to buy from the man who suffered hundreds of years of unimaginable torture in Hell, came back a beast but remembered her name, in fact it was Buffy that restored his sense of self. Is it hard to buy from the guy who gave up his humanity for Buffy?

I'm a Bangel too, and liked #35, but yes, it is that hard to buy. If the mind control was strong enough to get Angel to murder billions of people (he said in S5 he'd give his own life to save even a single evil human), then I can't believe Buffy asking him to stop would have any effect on him.

How do you know that won't happen this time around? Five episodes from the end of Season 4 was Shiny Happy People when Angel was completely under the influence of Jasmine and plotting how to kill Fred with the rest of the gang.

All would have seem lost then too, wouldn't it?

That's a great example of how ridiculous this is, that mind-control was so strong that even Angel & Wes wouldn't stop until the thrall was broken supernaturally. Here, Buffy just asks Angel if he wants to be a hero again, and stop murdering, and he says okay.

---------- Post added at 06:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:24 PM ----------

Yes, and we need a better explanation than we've gotten for why he did it... why did he decide to set himself up as Jasmine II, except instead of killing thousands to save billions, he was willing to kill billions to benefit two.

You summed up my point exactly.

---------- Post added at 06:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:26 PM ----------

ANGEL
What you're trying to do, raise your army, reclaim your world, innocent people would die. Like Fred. I can't let that happen.

ILLYRIA
You are the protector of these creatures?

ANGEL
Yes.

ILLYRIA
You'd fight for their lives?

ANGEL
Yes.

ILLYRIA
(looks at Knox)
Even this one?

KNOX
(nervously)
Is that an issue? Is my life in peril, boss? King?

ANGEL
You're about as low as it gets, Knox, but you're a part of humanity. That isn't always pretty, but it's a hell of a lot better than what came before. And if it comes down to a choice between you and him, then yes, I would fight for his life, just like any other human's. Because that's what people do. That's what makes us"”

 

[Kean]

Yes, and we need a better explanation than we've gotten for why he did it... why did he decide to set himself up as Jasmine II, except instead of killing thousands to save billions, he was willing to kill billions to benefit two.

They have five issues in which to answer that satisfactorily.

Question: how do we know he "set himself up" for this? I don't recall any indication of Angel choosing Twilight. He's clearly indoctrined but we don't know if that was by choice or force yet.