Discussion of 8.35 "Twilight Part 4" - Released 5/05/10 (Dark Horse)

[AndrewCrossett]

Question: how do we know he "set himself up" for this? I don't recall any indication of Angel choosing Twilight. He's clearly indoctrined but we don't know if that was by choice or force yet.

I didn't see any indication from his behavior that he was a person not in command of his own choices. If he was being forced into all this, he wouldn't have been able to make the choice to follow Buffy.

I think he didn't fully realize the dramatic effects of what he and Buffy were doing... when he first sees the battle, he says "I...I didn't think it would be..." That seems to indicate he knew the old world would die, but didn't think it would happen so suddenly. He might have assumed the human race would die slowly, like evolution usually works, and Buffy's friends would be able to live out their own lives. But it seems an awful lot like he realized his and Buffy's actions would eventually result in the death of the "lower plane."

Right now, he seems to be in a position analogous to a WW2 German army officer who truly believes Naziism is for the good of Germany (and to hell with the rest of the world), and who carefully avoids asking what happens to those boxcar loads of people he delivers to that "work camp" out in the woods, for fear that knowing the truth would make the dream come crashing down.

Neither he nor Buffy acted like people waking up from some kind of brainwashing or Jasmine-like delusion.

It was more like in "Superstar" -- everyone was still in full control of their minds and actions, they just had a different perception where Jonathan was concerned. But that wouldn't have made it okay for them to go murder someone because Jonathan said so.

It's possible I'm wrong, but if I am I say the writers really needed to make this more clear through Buffy and Angel's actions and reactions.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Question: how do we know he "set himself up" for this? I don't recall any indication of Angel choosing Twilight. He's clearly indoctrined but we don't know if that was by choice or force yet.

Imo it looks like he chose to become Twilights puppet. The line "Things got funky in L.A." indicates something terrible happened there or is it just a reference to the Hell A. part? The timeline still confuses me.

I have such a hard time with the whole Twilight issue. If he had his free will and really chose to became part of a plan wiping out mankind so he can live with Buffy happily ever after it were like my worst nightmare came true. He is a freakin hero. Allying himself with a higher power who wants to end the world for good is never a good thing ffs.

If that´s really the case i would be devastated. There is no excuse for me to do something like that at least not if you have the choice. It´s just selfish and insane.

I guess i need a really good explanation for all the things he has done before i even begin to consider if i´m able to forgive him. I hate the Twilight arc for that.

I care alot about the characters and seeing Angel acting like a mental patient on super powers and a godcomplex is just to much for me. I want "my" Angel back!

 

[Tome]

Angel acting like a mental patient on super powers and a godcomplex

Rofl! Nice one. But I agree with you, they better not have screwed or put aside the whole storyline from AtS+AtF...

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Kean agrees: I'm gona go out on a limb and say that Joss plain wouldn't decimate basically the 2nd most important character in the verse.

Of course he wouldn´t but imho if Angel gets white washed again the readers will be happy and forget to question why Angel became Twilight in the first place. I´m worried that´s Josss plan to shut us up. There are not many options left to save Angel.

The quickest and easiest way to redeem him were he sacrifices himself or a spell like in AtF when they reversed time. If the arc ends like that i´m very disappointed and it´s kinda lame.

I swear if Angels explanation has something with the words "greater good" in it i stake him myself even if it´s only in my mind. I kill him for real this time. Over and over again.

 

[cordangel]

Did you read Emmie's post on Whedonesque? Title: How to Redeem a Hero. Here some lines: "Angel is not in character.At all. This is not Angel. He's doing the exact opposite of who he is and all he professed to be. This is the next opposite of his most profound epiphany and mission to save souls.(...) Angel's character- the core of his self- has been decimated. Why? Apparently because he's in service of Buffy's story. Buffy gets to be the hero and Angel is here only to make her ultimately good look.SCREW that! Angel is a protagonist with over 5 years as a hero in his own right with no Buffy influencing him. But this comic doesn't respect his history, his character."

Where's the manpire who sacrificed Fred in order to save the world and in AtF made the decision not to pass over in order to keep on fighting helping the helpless?

JW undid 5 and plus years of character development and that is BAD writing. How can someone as talented as him sign his name to all this madness?

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Kean, I see where you're coming from, and as a huge fan of Champion!Angel, I hope you're right. I do think Joss will attempt to reconcile Angel as a champion. My worry is that he'll be unsuccessful in doing so.

Like I said in my example about Dollhouse, I enjoyed the ending immensely, and Joss attempted to make it all jibe, but it most certainly didn't. Wedge-less re-imprinting, and a corporation overpowering the US Military with weapons that only work at point-blank range makes no sense by the series' own logic.

I didn't see any indication from his behavior that he was a person not in command of his own choices. If he was being forced into all this, he wouldn't have been able to make the choice to follow Buffy.

I think he didn't fully realize the dramatic effects of what he and Buffy were doing... when he first sees the battle, he says "I...I didn't think it would be..." That seems to indicate he knew the old world would die, but didn't think it would happen so suddenly. He might have assumed the human race would die slowly, like evolution usually works, and Buffy's friends would be able to live out their own lives. But it seems an awful lot like he realized his and Buffy's actions would eventually result in the death of the "lower plane."

Neither he nor Buffy acted like people waking up from some kind of brainwashing or Jasmine-like delusion.

It's possible I'm wrong, but if I am I say the writers really needed to make this more clear through Buffy and Angel's actions and reactions.

This all almost leads me to question whether or not Joss counts any of Angel the Series as canon. It would actually make much more sense if AtS isn't...

 

[Tranquillity]

I see where you're coming from, and as a huge fan of Champion!Angel, I hope you're right. I do think Joss will attempt to reconcile Angel as a champion. My worry is that he'll be unsuccessful in doing so.

Yup - this is my fear too. As it stands Angel's situation is very unsatisfactory to me and I hope that Joss has decent answers in store for us in the final arc because otherwise I think my love of the character of Angel will get permantly stuck on my present feeling of ambivelance or worse, it will turn into apathy.

 

[tommy]

Hey all. Just got my new comics in the mail and caught up with this Twilight arc.

Hope I'm not the only one finding it really confusing, at times making no sense. Could really do with a summary of the arc... not just a summary but full plain English explanations, and any relevant back story stuff put in there in chronological order. This comic isn't easy to follow at all!

So the Universe is performing a balancing act by making people invincible?... and did Spike just arrive in a spaceship? Do we know what that is?

To be honest I don't know what I've just read.

 

[crazysoulless]

It makes a lot of sense for the “Universe” to want to purge the Earth of magicks after the parallel apocalypses averted by Buffy & the Scoobies/Slayers and Angel & Connor/AI Team involving both the Forces of Evil and the Forces of Good wrecking havoc.

BtVS S7: The First Evil has been around since “before the Bang”. It used Buffy’s resurrection damaging the Slayer line as the perfect excuse to finally make its mark on the world. It was close to tipping the scales between Good and Evil, almost became corporeal which would’ve lead to Its overwhelming evil presence entering every human. The FE destroyed the Watchers Council (around for millennia) and almost destroyed the Slayer line and created a legion out of the demon that created the vampire line back during the Last Battle when the demons were banished from Earth. It favored Buffy’s guise. Thousands died.

AtS S4: Jasmine was one of the Powers That Be forged “in the fires of Creation”. For five months she possessed the Seer that worked for the Vampire with a Soul, summoned The Beast that lead to an eclipse and hellfire raining down in Los Angeles, birthed her own incarnation, devoured humans to survive, and brainwashed millions and took away their free will for a “Utopia” without negative emotions. She was technically the granddaughter of Angel. Thousands died.

Buffy’s victory lead to the destruction of Sunnydale and being leader of an international paramilitary organization and “Queen of the Slayers”. The drawback was that they were seen as “terrorists” by many nations and more demons came out of the woodwork to balance the influx of Slayers.

Angel’s victory lead to being CEO of the Los Angeles branch of the inter-dimensional Wolfram & Hart organization. The drawback was that everyone in LA went to Hell for several months when Angel used his new position to try to take on the Order of the Black Thorn. They became leaders of hundreds with helicopters and mystic divisions and technology pretty much overnight and within the same month as each other.

Jasmine: Every moment that passes I grow closer to my followers. I feel what they feel, I see what they see. We're fusing together like the cells of a single body. They're my eyes, my skin, my limbs, and, if need be, my fists.

First Evil: When this is all over and our armies spring forth and our will sweeps the world, I will be able to enter every man, woman and child on this earth.

 

[tommy]

Sounds all really big picture stuff. I might be missing something, all the between the lines stuff because for the last year or so I've only quickly read the new issues once each. But it seems to me like a lot of time has been spent on the big picture storyline stuff, and not enough focus on character relationships which is what a lot of people care about. Don't remember Xander and Dawn talking in much length about what they got going now.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Sounds all really big picture stuff. I might be missing something, all the between the lines stuff because for the last year or so I've only quickly read the new issues once each. But it seems to me like a lot of time has been spent on the big picture storyline stuff, and not enough focus on character relationships which is what a lot of people care about. Don't remember Xander and Dawn talking in much length about what they got going now.

Don't know that you are. From the Angel angle at least, it still makes no sense as of #35. Answers are there, but they're nonsensical.

In terms of the rest of the characters, I can buy the Giles situation, and even Willow's.

 

[Kean]

Kean, I see where you're coming from, and as a huge fan of Champion!Angel, I hope you're right. I do think Joss will attempt to reconcile Angel as a champion. My worry is that he'll be unsuccessful in doing so.

I know you are as invested in Champion!Angel as any of us, that's not even in question😉 I guess I'm a just not willing to even entertain the thought of him not coming out the other side of this yet. I hope come January I can be really obnoxious and say "I told you so" in caps lock all overthe S8 forum! lol 😛 😉

If it turns out I can't, then you get the honour of being the obnoxious one, deal? 😛

 

[white avenger]

I know you are as invested in Champion!Angel as any of us, that's not even in question😉 I guess I'm a just not willing to even entertain the thought of him not coming out the other side of this yet. I hope come January I can be really obnoxious and say "I told you so" in caps lock all overthe S8 forum! lol 😛 😉

If it turns out I can't, then you get the honour of being the obnoxious one, deal? 😛

Miss K, knowing how much Angel (and more importantly, Bangel) mean to you, I sincerely hope that you are right.

But I thought that I was the obnoxious one around here. I must be slipping in my old age.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I've just read issue 34 and 35, and I've got to say that I still don't blame Buffy. Or Angel. Willow explained the universe wasn't letting Buffy stake Angel, it was urging them on, so I would say that the sex bit was at the very least not a hundred per cent Buffy's fault. And Giles said that Angel wasn't a killer "The power that Twilight has on it's subjects""¦

I think we're meant to believe that Angel & Buffy aren't themselves anymore. I mean, this can't possibly be Angel. Angel can't have lost his sense or conscience to this degree(I'm saying this as a Angel loather, but even I have to admit he's never been this bad). He's too out of character for me to assume that the writer's mistakenly wrote him out of character. Maybe he got his brain mashed in or something. Maybe what we saw affect Buffy in this arc have worked him over long time, making him its puppet.

But if I'm wrong, and this is 100per cent Angel, I'm going to be so God damn pissed, no matter if there's actually is a "reasonable" explanation for how the guy who always wanted to fight in the mud for the little people, turned into this self-centered douche who gladly accepts that people has to die for him to be happy. Actually, I think the only reasonable explanation would be that his mind is controlled by the universe. His morales and conscience survived Hell for Christ sake. I do not believe he become Twangel because someone said "It's your destiny. Go be happy". Like Giles' said, there must be something affecting both Angel and Buffy.

I mean Buffy can't be teary-eyed over the guy who just said "Screw you friends, let's live here". Even tough he came with her in the end, he's still the same guy who five minutes earlier was turning his back on humanity. The Buffy we know would not be happy about that, would not look at him with love. Buffy did come back somewhat to her senses in issue 35 when she turned her back on Twilight(the place), but through the entire issue I think we see her struggling against the universe's hold on her.

So even tough a shallow read makes Season 8 look like something a fanfic-writer on drugs would write, I still have faith in Season 8, and Joss. I will continue reading Season when it comes back in September, and I hope you guys will be with me.

 

[Angelic Slayer]

Just finally got my issue yesterday in the mail (I *really* need to find a Canadian retailer for these things!) and so far I like #35 a lot more than #34 (but not as much as #33). It really fit right with her character, having Buffy go back to save everyone in the end. And it's also nice to see Angel in something a little less Twilight-esque, when he gave Buffy that half-smile before they came back to earth, I thought "okay, there's the Angel we know and love!".

The last issue was fine and all, but it's nice to have some conversation happening in #35 again. Kind of touching how Warren reacted to Andrew, and seeing Xander reach out for Buffy when she was in Twilight. Also cannot wait to see what they do with Spike in the next issue, all I can hope is that the Bangel Train doesn't fall apart in the process!

Not looking forward to the long wait for #36, but it's nice to finally be caught up with everybody 🙂

 

[crazysoulless]

His morals and concious may have survived 100 years in Hell but it didn't survive a year and a half in Los Angeles. He was tried to lose his soul on purpose and become a serial rapist, torturer, mass murderer that tried to suck every living being into Hell. He suffered hundreds of years of guilt over Angelus' actions and yet in less than two years in LA he was willing to revert back to Angelus. It's interesting that Holtz stole Connor as revenge for what Angelus did considering that Connor was created by Angel trying to bring back Angelus.

By the time of BtVS S8 Angel has already lost Darla, Cordelia, Fred, & Wesley. And with Fred it was her soul that was destroyed. His only child was sent to live in a demon dimension for 17 years and he felt he had to slit his throat and erase his memories to fix him. Both Cordelia and Fred had their bodies stolen (one by a fallen PTB, one by an "Old One") and in Cordy's case raped via consensual sex between Jasmine & Connor and possibly The Beast. His actions sent all of Los Angeles to Hell to be brutalized for months. Thousands of people were probably tortured and mutilated and killed and even if it was all reset they still remember the fear and pain and misery. He had his team go on a suicide mission in the name of vengeance. He shot a human in the face when there were plenty of other options. He had Lindsey murdered in cold blood by Lorne.

Why can't Buffy be teary-eyed over someone that was okay with the Earth being destroyed? Willow did the same thing in S6 (as well as erasing her memories, zapping her with lightning bolts, ramming a truck into the car she was in, creating demons to kill her, etc) and Buffy was at the airport to welcome her home, let her live in her own old bedroom, calls her her best friend, and let her siphon her healing abilities to fix the damage done by Gnarl. Everyone wanted Buffy to be nicer to Faith after she raped Buffy (sex in her body without Buffy's consent), punched her mom in the face, strangeld Xander, held a knife to Willow's neck, poisoned Angel, tortured Wesley, elbowed Cordy in the face, was going to torture Buffy to death, and wanted to be at the Mayor's side as he became a pure demon and ate thousands of people and said "I hope evil takes mastercard". Buffy forgives. She helps others redeem. She allies with people in times of trouble even if she still has issues with them.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

The problem is, if you automatically forgive people over and over and over, no matter what they do, how many people they kill and how much they destroy, you basically render good and evil meaningless. Just do all the evil you want, knowing that you'll be forgiven for it.

This is the worst thing Angel has ever done. In fact, it's the worst thing any character in the Buffyverse has ever succeeded in doing. "Sorry" isn't good enough this time. Angel needs to face consequences, and they need to be appropriate to the damage he's brought about. If he can make amends, he needs to do it.

It's good to be a forgiving person. But it's not good to be a sucker.

 

[crazysoulless]

But should the other crimes in the Buffyverse been forgiven?

It may very well be the worse thing done in the Buffyverse but it definitely doesn't diminish how truly horrible the other crimes were. Willow murdered. Faith murdered. Andrew murdered. Anya murdered. Angel murdered. Giles and Xander and Lorne and Wesley did things that lead to death. Each of those characters has a huge fanbase and were seen as integral to the Buffyverse. And yet in the real world someone that murders a human for fun or revenge or indifference is seen as doing something unforgivable. Three months with an English coven or three years in prison or crying over the Seal of Danzathar seemed to be enough for fans. That is barely any consequences.

Buffy has to forgive everyone. As it is some people call Buffy ungrateful towards her friends. Despite Xander's lie in Becoming #2, faking amnesia so he wouldn't have to apologize for trying to rape her while partially possessed, goading Faith on to kill Angel, spying on her while she changed clothes, saying his willpower in not raping her while she was under a love spell was "touch and go", etc. Giles poisoning her with the intention of locking her in a boarding up house with a psychotic demon whose specialty was torturing women and going behind her back to kill a souled Spike. Four of her friends playing God and ripping her out of Heaven.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

My problem with the current situation is that Angel's conspiring against Buffy is regarded as no big deal. Just a ploy to raise sexual tension between lovers. As soon as they have sex, Angel's acts are forgotten and forgiven. Buffy and Angel are lovers, friends and comrades-in-arms again. Everything is okay between them.

Apparently, everything Angel did in the previous arcs was just a "gotcha" to surprise the audience.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

For me it all depends on how much free will he had while under Twilight, and how he reacts once he's free of its influence.

Remember Angel in "Judgment?" How torn up he was at having accidentally killed a fellow champion of good, even though he was acting in self-defense? Is this the same person who would impassively preside over the killing of 200+ Slayers and shrug it off as acceptable losses?

As for the idea of killing a few to save many, that notion has been explored before:

JASMINE: "Yes, I murdered thousands to save billions. This world is doomed to drown in its own blood now."

ANGEL: "The price was too high, Jasmine. Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing."