Discussion of 8.35 "Twilight Part 4" - Released 5/05/10 (Dark Horse)

[citiegal17]

For me it all depends on how much free will he had while under Twilight, and how he reacts once he's free of its influence.

Remember Angel in "Judgment?" How torn up he was at having accidentally killed a fellow champion of good, even though he was acting in self-defense? Is this the same person who would impassively preside over the killing of 200+ Slayers and shrug it off as acceptable losses?

As for the idea of killing a few to save many, that notion has been explored before:

JASMINE: "Yes, I murdered thousands to save billions. This world is doomed to drown in its own blood now."

ANGEL: "The price was too high, Jasmine. Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing."

Yes, actually and I am not saying to bash him, or because I hate him. If you watched Angel season 5, he mind raped his friends without their consent, no choice involved in that, murdered Drogyn(A Champion, innocent, and friend, to further his own agenda, and no I don't believe in the BS excuse of the greater good), as well as Lindsey(who was scum but didn't deserve to be murdered. Maybe, what he said at that time was true, but it doesn't hold up to his character later. You can't say one thing and do another then expect to keep credibility. I thought he was Twilight because of ATS and some parts of BVS. Also for the record still not buying the whole prophetcy its not at all IC for his charcter post season 5.

 

[citiegal17]

Yes, actually and I am not saying to bash him, or because I hate him. If you watched Angel season 5, he mind raped his friends without their consent, no choice involved in that, murdered Drogyn(A Champion, innocent, and friend, to further his own agenda, and no I don't believe in the BS excuse of the greater good), as well as Lindsey(who was scum but didn't deserve to be murdered. Maybe, what he said at that time was true, but it doesn't hold up to his character later. You can't say one thing and do another then expect to keep credibility. I thought he was Twilight because of ATS and some parts of BVS. Also for the record still not buying the whole prophetcy its not at all IC for his charcter post season 5.

Didn't read the whole thing but I geuss we agree, it all really goes down to perspectives on how people judge characters. Also its very true that a lot of stuff that the characters have done is well bad, but I geuss you could go by degrees in order to judge them, again still a matter of what the person thinks. Also to clarify I don't see any reason for Angel to have reasonably want to go about this evolution/prophetcy mumbo jumbo(sarcasm), its too OOC, for even me to buy that. I still consider Angel season 5, to be pretty much an insult to any character developement he had during prior seasons of both shows, I have mixed feelings about that season in general.

---------- Post added at 02:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 PM ----------

Didn't read the whole thing but I geuss we agree, it all really goes down to perspectives on how people judge characters. Also its very true that a lot of stuff that the characters have done is well bad, but I geuss you could go by degrees in order to judge them, again still a matter of what the person thinks. Also to clarify I don't see any reason for Angel to have reasonably want to go about this evolution/prophetcy mumbo jumbo(sarcasm), its too OOC, for even me to buy that. I still consider Angel season 5, to be pretty much an insult to any character developement he had during prior seasons of both shows, I have mixed feelings about that season in general.

Wrong post response, response to the one above the one it listed above, lame.

 

[white avenger]

I've just finished rereading this entire thread, and all that I can say is, Joss had better come up with a damn fine way to get his characters out of the corner that they've been painted into, or he's gonna lose more than a few fans. At the moment, I couldn't really care any less about whether or not this arc meshes with the IDF series, who Buffy winds up with at the end of the season, (if anyone) who actually was in control of Angel, why Giles has acted the way that he has, or even why Andrew's shield doesn't bounce back when thrown. I just want Season 8 to be properly concluded and tucked away into the annals of Buffy history. I don't want any part of it carried over into Season 9, whenever it happens. I'm on the verge of developing a total "Bah! Humbug!" attitude about the whole thing.

 

[crazysoulless]

I'm actually loving almost everything in S8 but it lacks so much detail. That is what I hate. I feel like we are just getting an outline and have to do all of the work ourselves, fill in the between stuff, imagine how this or that happened, improve upon a really good story to make it great.

I think if Angel was capable in AtS S2 of trying to achieve perfect happiness in order to unleash Angelus (a rapist, torturer, mass murderer) he is capable of anything. I mean, if he was really depressed he could have killed himself. In BtVS' Amends he was going to burn in the sun because the thought of becoming Angelus again was too horrible and he wouldn't have been able to deal with the guilt and could never do anything to hurt Buffy again. And yet just two years later he is trying to be Angelus again.

 

[white avenger]

I don't think that this has been mentioned so fer, and if it has, please forgive me, but with all of this discussion about whether or not Issues #34 and 35 Angel are actually "in character" or not, but if it hasn't been, it definitely should be. In Issue #34, Angel, who spent 3 years in Sunnydale, followed by another 5 years in Los Angeles, brooding over the hundreds, or at best, thousands, of lives that Angelus had destroyed or ruined, is urging Buffy to participate in something that will directly bring about the destruction of, not only the TRILLIONS of lives on Earth, but all life in our ENTIRE UNIVERSE. I would say that that most definitely qualifies as "out of character" for Ol' Broody.

 

[crazysoulless]

I really don't think he spent all of his life post-Gypsy curse brooding. We found out that after he got a soul he tried to rejoin the Fang Four for two years. In That Old Gang of Mine (I think that's the ep) he practically saw someone not accepting him as a vampire as racism. He referred to the gypsy girl that he raped and murdered as "dumb as a post". In Reprise he was willing to bring back Angelus instead of death by sunlight or staking. He happily had a job and was making money. He had friends and tried to start several romantic relationships. He was okay with vengeance when he was the one that was wronged. He didn't do any follow up on Billy (as in trying to find a way to stop him before he hurt anyone) when he released him from his imprisonment.

 

[citiegal17]

I don't think that this has been mentioned so fer, and if it has, please forgive me, but with all of this discussion about whether or not Issues #34 and 35 Angel are actually "in character" or not, but if it hasn't been, it definitely should be. In Issue #34, Angel, who spent 3 years in Sunnydale, followed by another 5 years in Los Angeles, brooding over the hundreds, or at best, thousands, of lives that Angelus had destroyed or ruined, is urging Buffy to participate in something that will directly bring about the destruction of, not only the TRILLIONS of lives on Earth, but all life in our ENTIRE UNIVERSE. I would say that that most definitely qualifies as "out of character" for Ol' Broody.

First I never said I believed in this prophetcy mumbo jumbo, I would say its out of character but that wasn't my arguement at all, in fact I've been arguing that it wasn't. I was talking about the fact that he has indeed fact killed people in the name of the greater good, which is competley in character. In ATS 5, he killed Drogyn for his Black Thorn plan, so if your actually trying to argue he feels guilt over killing people, then you should really take into consideration that he has murdered people when he thought it was okay(Lindsey), Drogyn), so it gets harder to really feel sympathy about him brooding over killing people, if he does in fact kill people, you get my point right?

 

[white avenger]

First I never said I believed in this prophetcy mumbo jumbo, I would say its out of character but that wasn't my arguement at all, in fact I've been arguing that it wasn't. I was talking about the fact that he has indeed fact killed people in the name of the greater good, which is competley in character. In ATS 5, he killed Drogyn for his Black Thorn plan, so if your actually trying to argue he feels guilt over killing people, then you should really take into consideration that he has murdered people when he thought it was okay(Lindsey), Drogyn), so it gets harder to really feel sympathy about him brooding over killing people, if he does in fact kill people, you get my point right?

I wasn't particularly commenting on your post specifically as much as I was just pointing out that he was urging Buffy to, albeit more or less indirectly, join him in bringing about the destruction of all life as we know it. And I agree, Angel sis tend to slip back into the Angelus character on occasion, of which the death of Drogyn and the ordering of Lindsey's murder are two prime examples. Still, it just seems a bit contradictory to me that the man who has spent 8 years on TV (I never said anything about the century or so before the show took place before that, though he was shown as spending some pre-Buffy time in various alleys dining on rats) belaboring himself and brooding over his past crimes, murders, and atrocities, should now be urging Buffy to take part in destroying, or at least ending all life in, the universe so that they could be the new Adam and Eve. What happened to champion Angel, helper of the helpless, defender of the defenseless, and protector of the...uh...protect-less?

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

I really don't think he spent all of his life post-Gypsy curse brooding. We found out that after he got a soul he tried to rejoin the Fang Four for two years.

He spent his ensouled life up until he saw Buffy's heart/chest brooding.

He rejoined the Fang Gang because he had nothing else. It's understandable but not exactly commendable. He drank from violent criminals, I think Darla said. I don't think he was too happy.

In Reprise he was willing to bring back Angelus instead of death by sunlight or staking.

What does that have to do with your point about him not being broody after the curse?

He happily had a job and was making money. He had friends and tried to start several romantic relationships.

And pre-Sunnydale/LA...?

He was okay with vengeance when he was the one that was wronged.

Connor? He kidnapped Linwood when Holtz took him into the other dimension and I'm pretty sure he was willing to kill him. He made Sahjan corporeal so he could kill him. He tried to strangle Wesley.


...Or Cordelia, Connor, Fred (well he at least tried but the professor conjured a demon, IIRC.)...

 

[citiegal17]

I wasn't particularly commenting on your post specifically as much as I was just pointing out that he was urging Buffy to, albeit more or less indirectly, join him in bringing about the destruction of all life as we know it. And I agree, Angel sis tend to slip back into the Angelus character on occasion, of which the death of Drogyn and the ordering of Lindsey's murder are two prime examples. Still, it just seems a bit contradictory to me that the man who has spent 8 years on TV (I never said anything about the century or so before the show took place before that, though he was shown as spending some pre-Buffy time in various alleys dining on rats) belaboring himself and brooding over his past crimes, murders, and atrocities, should now be urging Buffy to take part in destroying, or at least ending all life in, the universe so that they could be the new Adam and Eve. What happened to champion Angel, helper of the helpless, defender of the defenseless, and protector of the...uh...protect-less?

I don't think his real goal was this evolution/prophetcy crap, I actually agreed with you there. However, if you have his personality traits of, being manipulative, cowardily at times(PG), thinks he suppost to save the world(ATS), controlling, violent tendencies, vengence(ATs), and the his visions of the future(ATS),indifference to human suffering(when darla and drsusila killed the lawyers) and the powers of a god its pretty easy to see him as Twilight. Gods become indifferent to human suffering, so it seems like a natural progression from his personality. I prefer the earlier versions of Angel myself he was heroic, I dont get the current one, he says one thing but his actions contradict it.

 

[Gideon]

I don't think his real goal was this evolution/prophetcy crap, I actually agreed with you there. However, if you have his personality traits of, being manipulative, cowardily at times(PG), thinks he suppost to save the world(ATS), controlling, violent tendencies, vengence(ATs), and the his visions of the future(ATS),indifference to human suffering(when darla and drsusila killed the lawyers) and the powers of a god its pretty easy to see him as Twilight. Gods become indifferent to human suffering, so it seems like a natural progression from his personality. I prefer the earlier versions of Angel myself he was heroic, I dont get the current one, he says one thing but his actions contradict it.

+1

Angel's one of my very favorite characters, but we've seen the full spectrum of his vices and virtues, and I believe he is absolutely capable of doing something like this. Not casually, of course, but if he was persuaded that adopting the Twilight persona would save more lives in the long run, he'd do it.

Though Angel can be hopelessly altruistic and heroic, he's also been shown to be manipulative and deceitful, talents he's put to use on more than one occasion when he felt that a greater cause was at play.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Angel is capable of rationalizing quite a lot of things, but arranging and overseeing the systematic killing of fellow heroes (especially ones so important to Buffy) is not one of them, IMO. Not without some outside force seriously messing with his head.

 

[citiegal17]

Angel is capable of rationalizing quite a lot of things, but arranging and overseeing the systematic killing of fellow heroes (especially ones so important to Buffy) is not one of them, IMO. Not without some outside force seriously messing with his head.

Maybe a force messed with his head, but he still has Free Will, which is the big thing. Also he has already killed another champion before(Drogyn, ATS5), and I think he could have definitely rationalized the murders of hero's for this whole Twilight thing. Angel's character has been capable of murder, for the greater good before, his character is definitely gray, and has been flirting with the lines of gray evil for a while now. An outside force is not an excuse to do evil in the name of the greater good, if it is not controlling you, which is supported in the comics.

 

[citiegal17]

Angel is capable of rationalizing quite a lot of things, but arranging and overseeing the systematic killing of fellow heroes (especially ones so important to Buffy) is not one of them, IMO. Not without some outside force seriously messing with his head.

I don't think Angel is pure evil, but he is capable of doing evil things when he thinks his cause is just. It is also kinda of ironic the whole black thorn plan was based upon the visions Cordelia sent him, and that didn't end well, but thats a matter of opinon. His character has been influenced from other forces for a long time now, I can totally believe he was influenced to do it, I can list a few old influences already, the PTB, the first, W&H, and Jasmine(really ironic in this case), its his characters weakness through no fault of the characters is to be made a puppet over and over, but for a character that wants to redeem himself he shouldn't be casually killing people, but he already has prior to Twilight, he's been wreckless with opening demensions before too, when he tried to get Connor back, it nearly killed Fred, and Wesley ended up saving her, I think his character has good intentions, but his methods are just wrong, as the saying goes "great power requires responsibility", yes its chessy but very true.

 

[Daniel Osbourne]

I have been avoiding this part of the forum because I knew there might be a bit of an upheaval concerning this "Twilight is Angel and he and Buffy had universe-shattering sex" business, and I'm glad to see that people are having discussion about this issue that is perfectly pleasant.

However, I just did a forum search for the e-comic "Always Darkest"... and some of the results I got were posts from discussion on Twilight #3. I could not believe how passionate some people are concerning their views on Angel... Some people were suggesting that souled Angel is total scum and should be killed immediately and that he's been manipulating Buffy since Season 1...

Come on, guys! It seems sometimes as though someone's love for Bangel or Spuffy is more important than their love for Buffy the Vampire Slayer. People are not defined by the FICTIONAL pairings they support.

I love Buffy/Angel and I love Buffy/Spike for different reasons. I love Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara, Dawn/Xander, Xander/Anya, Willow/Kennedy, Fred/Wesley, even Spike/Harmony. And I don't love a single one of these relationships because they're better than the others. I love them because I love the characters in this universe and how their relationships help them grow and help them become cookies!

I realize that this post must just start the bloody shipping war again, but I feel the need to state how ridiculous the whole thing is. You don't like Angel/Spike's actions? Fine. Write a letter to Joss Whedon about it.

In regards to Angel's motives, I admit that he has been deceitful, manipultaive and kinda evil at times. But the fact that the universe IS controlling Buffy and Angel's actions screams to me that both of them are only PARTIALLY in control of themselves.

Do you think Whedon and company would have thieir second biggest hero kill 200 innocent teenage girls without SOMETHING going on behind the scenes? Because I don't. Joss always knows how his seasons are going to end. And I have faith in him.

 

[citiegal17]

I have been avoiding this part of the forum because I knew there might be a bit of an upheaval concerning this "Twilight is Angel and he and Buffy had universe-shattering sex" business, and I'm glad to see that people are having discussion about this issue that is perfectly pleasant.

However, I just did a forum search for the e-comic "Always Darkest"... and some of the results I got were posts from discussion on Twilight #3. I could not believe how passionate some people are concerning their views on Angel... Some people were suggesting that souled Angel is total scum and should be killed immediately and that he's been manipulating Buffy since Season 1...

Come on, guys! It seems sometimes as though someone's love for Bangel or Spuffy is more important than their love for Buffy the Vampire Slayer. People are not defined by the FICTIONAL pairings they support.

I love Buffy/Angel and I love Buffy/Spike for different reasons. I love Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara, Dawn/Xander, Xander/Anya, Willow/Kennedy, Fred/Wesley, even Spike/Harmony. And I don't love a single one of these relationships because they're better than the others. I love them because I love the characters in this universe and how their relationships help them grow and help them become cookies!

I realize that this post must just start the bloody shipping war again, but I feel the need to state how ridiculous the whole thing is. You don't like Angel/Spike's actions? Fine. Write a letter to Joss Whedon about it.

In regards to Angel's motives, I admit that he has been deceitful, manipultaive and kinda evil at times. But the fact that the universe IS controlling Buffy and Angel's actions screams to me that both of them are only PARTIALLY in control of themselves.

Do you think Whedon and company would have thieir second biggest hero kill 200 innocent teenage girls without SOMETHING going on behind the scenes? Because I don't. Joss always knows how his seasons are going to end. And I have faith in him.

I geuss I'll answer your last question first, I can totally believe Josh would have Angel do what he's doing now, mainly cause he's done it before, and to have him as Twilight, actually I find it awesome. I don't hate the character or anything like that, but he's been going down the fallen hero route since the end of ATS 5. Also still doubting this prophetcy thing, I don't think Angel has been manipulating Buffy since season 1, and I agree with you the relationships on the verse are really great. The Twilight thing, actually makes it easier to understand the route in which ATS took at the end, since Angel's character really didn't make even make much sense by the end of the series. Josh knows how to bring on the pain to its characters, what a better way to do that with Buffyverse, with using Angel, it is the ultimate way to bring a clash of ideologies from ATS5 and BVS 5, while bringing the characters the most pain possible, and thats only one of the reasons why I think Joss would take this angle with Angel's character.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

The preview page we've seen for #36 strongly suggests Angel was not fully in control of his thinking... unless he usually lets birds and random strangers talk him into killing young women by the dozens.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I have a little spoiler-ish tidbit from Jeanty that might give hope to Spuffy-fans:

Spoiler

Jeanty just told me in a e-mail that he had drawn Spike with his shirt off several times.

"Depending on the page is how the pricing usually goes. That last page of Spike I'm asking $700, but like I said, Spike will be around and already I've drawn him with his shirt off a couple of times!"

Why was his shirt off? Maybe it got dirty and he changed it? Maybe there was a threesome between Angel, Buffy and Spike? what, a girl can dream.

Is it weird that I get excited that a fictional two dimensional character takes his top off? ???

---------- Post added at 03:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:47 PM ----------

I read in another thread that we've been promised 3 porn issues, which leaves two. I kind of hope we don't get that much more porn. More story, less flesh. I mean there's just 5 issues left.

 

[Daniel Osbourne]

The preview page we've seen for #36 strongly suggests Angel was not fully in control of his thinking... unless he usually lets birds and random strangers talk him into killing young women by the dozens.

Yes, exactly! But I'm withholding any and all judegements on Angel until the end of Last Gleaming.

I have a little spoiler-ish tidbit from Jeanty that might give hope to Spuffy-fans:

Spoiler - Highlight to view:Jeanty just told me in a e-mail that he had drawn Spike with his shirt off several times.

"Depending on the page is how the pricing usually goes. That last page of Spike I'm asking $700, but like I said, Spike will be around and already I've drawn him with his shirt off a couple of times!"

Why was his shirt off? Maybe it got dirty and he changed it? Maybe there was a threesome between Angel, Buffy and Spike? what, a girl can dream.

Is it weird that I get excited that a fictional two dimensional character takes his top off?

---------- Post added at 03:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:47 PM ----------

I read in another thread that we've been promised 3 porn issues, which leaves two. I kind of hope we don't get that much more porn. More story, less flesh. I mean there's just 5 issues left.

Well, Spike/Angel were shirtless a lot in the series for no real purpose other than eye candy for their fans. Saturn5 even kept a count on how many times it happened to David and James in his Angel rewatch, and it turned out to be 20 or something.

3 porn issues?! Where did you find THAT? And who would use that kind of terminology, anyway???

But I'm sure the Spuffies will get some action, especially with the whole Buffy-and-Spike-fighting-together-"soon"-thing!

By the way, is it okay if I bump the old threads for The Long Way Home to post my thoughts on them?

 

[citiegal17]

The preview page we've seen for #36 strongly suggests Angel was not fully in control of his thinking... unless he usually lets birds and random strangers talk him into killing young women by the dozens.

The preview suggests he was manipulated by others, and its not even the first time he has let outside forces influence his thinking, which ended in the result in the murder of an innocent. Its similiar to the Black Thorn Plan in that way, because he listened to what Cordelia put in his head with the visions, the end of the result of that plan, Drogyn(innocent, champion, friend), murdered just so he could follow through with his Black Thorn Plan.Its in the preview, it states how bloodshed was inevitable, meaning people would die, which was required for him to be the leader, by leading the forces against Buffy. I could see Angel's character thinking he was a hero for doing this, since his character thought he was some sort of hero,even after he just murdered two people. His character believes in killing people for the greater good, and he's been a puppet for many forces, The PTB, The First, Jasmine so thats really in character for the guy.