Episode Discussion Discussion of 8.39 "Last Gleaming Part 4" - Released 11/01/10 (Dark Horse)

[Skanky Vamp]

in hot pursuit of Willow's vagina demon headed off toward parts unknown.

epic imagery

 

[MRNewman]

Reading bits and pieces of this thread I realized something. I really need to catch up on my Season 8 readings.

I pretty much only read the first 12 issues. I'm way behind and have no clue what's going on.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

As for Spike, if Tranquility's summary is complete, when we last saw him, he was in hot pursuit of Willow's vagina demon (god, but I just realized how that must sound!) headed off toward parts unknown. Why did that particular demon not get sucked away with all of the rest? Or did it get sucked away, and Spike got sucked away right along with it?

Okay, I have a theory about that demon...

It's a "Loophole" demon, sent by Aluwyn to rescue Willow.

As we were told in season 7, magic is now part of Willow... she doesn't just use it, she is it. And she won't survive in this newly magic-less world, at least not until some changes can be made.

This demon is actually controlled by Aluwyn or following her orders, given before the Seed was broken. The female genitalia is a portal from one world into another, and that's what this creature is. Because it's native to this world, it keeps its inherent magical nature... just like the Slayers and vampires will.

So the demon was not attacking Willow, but trying to draw her into its portal and transport her to Aluwyn's world, where she can recover and keep her magic. It will probably succeed eventually. It's possible that Spike will get sucked in too, and in season 9 we'll get The Adventures of Willow and Spike in the Sexy World of Saga Vasuki.

So I'm thinking that this famous panel from Fray doesn't depict Buffy, as most of us had assumed, but Willow:

 

[white avenger]

So I'm thinking that this famous panel from Fray doesn't depict Buffy, as most of us had assumed, but Willow:

That might work out pretty well, especially if it's that future dark Willow who brings the lurks back out of hiding and is responsible for restoring or more likely duplicating the original Scythe and getting it to Fray. She could actually be one of the two unknown speakers from the demon dimension at the beginning of the "Fray" series who send Urkonn to help the new Slayer (maybe Urkonn is really Giles in a demon body. He does look sort of like his "New Man" demon, though bigger and with legs hinged the wrong way. And the four armed monkey has to be Xander, Dracula's old "butt monkey.")

 

[AndrewCrossett]

That might work out pretty well, especially if it's that future dark Willow who brings the lurks back out of hiding and is responsible for restoring or more likely duplicating the original Scythe and getting it to Fray. She could actually be one of the two unknown speakers from the demon dimension at the beginning of the "Fray" series who send Urkonn to help the new Slayer (maybe Urkonn is really Giles in a demon body. He does look sort of like his "New Man" demon, though bigger and with legs hinged the wrong way. And the four armed monkey has to be Xander, Dracula's old "butt monkey.")

I think it actually will turn out to be Willow who created the new Scythe, and gave it to Urkonn to give to Mel. But I think Willow still has a ways to go, and more interaction with the other Scoobies, before she gets to that stage of her life.

I assumed the two voices at the beginning of Fray belonged to Vrill and Boluz, the two demons (the scorpion-like one and the fat one) who were trying to control Melaka.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Angel killed Giles. Wow. I didn't see that coming.

This is catastrophic. God, Poor Buffy. I know I've said in the past that Buffy no longer needs him, and I believe that, but he is still as close to a father as she as ever had. How much more pain will Buffy have to ensure? HASN'T she paid her dues?

The issue was sold out when I tried to buy it yesterday.

This is the end of Bangel. It has to be. Buffy can never erase that image in her mind of Angel snapping Giles' neck. I told all of you this would end in tragedy.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[white avenger]

This is the end of Bangel. It has to be. Buffy can never erase that image in her mind of Angel snapping Giles' neck. I told all of you this would end in tragedy.
Posted via Mobile Device

Wanna bet? Buffy will simply say, "That wasn't REALLY Angel. It was nasty ol' Twilight who did the neck breaking thing with Giles. My sweet darling Angel would no more do a thing like that than he would kill a couple of thousand Slayers, plus god only knows how many soldiers and civilians, and put the entire world on jeopardy. I just KNOW that he wouldn't!" and the "Angel Gets Out Of Jail Free" card will be invoked one more time.

(But don't think that I'm just singling out Ol' Broody. Okay, maybe I am, just a little, but it's gotten to the point that NOBODY in the Buffyverse has to pay for their past crimes. Buffy tried to kill them all; Angel/Angelus tried to kill everybody AND bring about Acathla; Giles murdered Ben; Xander invoked a dancing demon who killed several people and almost killed Buffy; Willow murdered Warren; Spike killed all those people and buried them in the basement; and let's not forget Andrew shoving a knife in Jonathan's innards. We've got a whole cast of murderers here, folks. The only one who's in any way owned up to and accepted punishment for her crimes is Faith, ane they call HER the Rogue Slayer. Go figure...)

 

[Litheran]

Is it evil of me to picture Twangel turning to Buffy as Giles' neck breaks and saying...






"Oh snap!"


😱

 

[Kean]

This is the end of Bangel. It has to be. Buffy can never erase that image in her mind of Angel snapping Giles' neck. I told all of you this would end in tragedy.
Posted via Mobile Device

I would bet the soul of my first born that this is not the end of Bangel. Not by a long shot.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

wait... did I miss something. I just had another think. How did Starbucks® tie into it? Didn't the watcher die at the battle of starbucks?

 

[Kean]

wait... did I miss something. I just had another think. How did Starbucks® tie into it? Didn't the watcher die at the battle of starbucks?

I was thinking that too. I'm assuming that, over the course of history, the name was mangled.

If Xander's declaration of Sunnydale being a "One Starbucks town" was ever written down then it very easily is just a case of history losing some of the facts.

A bit like the episode of Dr. Who where the world is ending? They wheel out a Jukebox and declare it is an ancient artifact of Earth: the iPod!

 

[frankie]

Wanna bet? Buffy will simply say, "That wasn't REALLY Angel. It was nasty ol' Twilight who did the neck breaking thing with Giles. My sweet darling Angel would no more do a thing like that than he would kill a couple of thousand Slayers, plus god only knows how many soldiers and civilians, and put the entire world on jeopardy. I just KNOW that he wouldn't!" and the "Angel Gets Out Of Jail Free" card will be invoked one more time.

(But don't think that I'm just singling out Ol' Broody. Okay, maybe I am, just a little, but it's gotten to the point that NOBODY in the Buffyverse has to pay for their past crimes. Buffy tried to kill them all; Angel/Angelus tried to kill everybody AND bring about Acathla; Giles murdered Ben; Xander invoked a dancing demon who killed several people and almost killed Buffy; Willow murdered Warren; Spike killed all those people and buried them in the basement; and let's not forget Andrew shoving a knife in Jonathan's innards. We've got a whole cast of murderers here, folks. The only one who's in any way owned up to and accepted punishment for her crimes is Faith, ane they call HER the Rogue Slayer. Go figure...)

That's pretty much the case. I never thought I grow to like the character of Faith so much. She's far from perfect, when she does bad things - so much goes with that. Breakdowns, freak outs, anger, self-loathing, guilt and happiness. She's complex and is a great go to character for emotional reactions and soul searching. The rest seem to fall into the "we do bad stuff, but we saved the world a few times, so who cares." If Faith gets her own comic I'll read it. I'll buy the last issue of season 8 and leave it at that. A bit bored and fed up with Buffy at the moment, which is sad to say. 🙁

 

[Kean]

Scobro agrees: What about the 'he sacrificed himself' part? THIS is why (in addition to it being CGI) I loath the new Star Wars.

In my experience, you learn more about the person writing the history, then the event itself, from any given primary (news article, letter, speech etc) or secondary source.

So, the history that Fray has, even if it was written by Xander or Buffy, will tell a version of what happened but it won't be exactly.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Eh.. cant convince me.. just more of a bit of a letdown. If he wanted he could have written it so they connected but didnt turn out that way.

 

[nmcil12]

I hear you. This just hasn't quite worked out, has it? There has been parts that I have loved but ultimately this season has not quite hit the marks it showed potential for early on.

---------- Post added at 02:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 PM ----------



I actually agree with you (well mostly) but I don't believe that this will happen. When I say that I mean that I don't think Buffy and Angel will make the conscious decision to do that. Angel will go away, retreat from humanity and try to atone. Buffy will struggle with what has happened and the role she has played but I genuinely don't think they will decide that they must stay away from each other forever. Not when so much that went wrong because of magic. In a magicless world I can see them edging back together.

I just cannot see the characters, or Joss for that matter, putting a cap on this. Especially now that Angel is at DH. The story will continue (much as it has since he left Sunnydale), that is almost a certainty I think.

In a lot of ways the status quo has just been re-established.

---------- Post added at 02:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:04 PM ----------

Scobro agrees: You mentioned The Chain before... the whole season should have been that.. THAT was classic Buffy. It had that... vibe

And the irony of that? Buffy wasn't even really in that issue.

What is the point of this series anymore if nothing matters - if all the deaths and chaos of this season can simply be put to right by claiming that the characters are not in control of their lives or events. If all that has to happen from the consequences of "choices" is that I am asked to accepted the premise that it all comes down to magic and the characters are absolved for their actions - what is the point?

 

[AndrewCrossett]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the account Melaka has of the final battle was written by Andrew... and we know how rambling he can be in his accounts. If you had his story in fragmentary form, it might be very confusing indeed, and a mention of Starbucks somewhere wouldn't be out of the question.

Plus, his love for drama leads him to define every brave death he witnesses as a "sacrifice"... Anya sacrificed herself to save him, Giles/Gates sacrificed himself to save the world... even though that wasn't likely what either one of them had in mind.

 

[VisionGirl]

Well, I'm totally in shock. I mean, we all expected a death, but I didn't really expect it to be Giles, nor did I expect Angel to be the one who killed him, in Jenny fashion no less. I don't know which aspect of that I'm more in shock over: Giles' death, or Angel's actions.

But I have lots of questions: why is Giles on the cover of #40 then? What about this future Giles/Faith interaction we've heard about for season 9? Or did I just imagine that? Giles' death was a magical one (Angel under the influence of Twilight), so he could be resurrected, right? Except there is no Willow, nor any witch at all, to do it. Can the Scythe do it?

What are the ramifications of the destruction of the seed? We've heard that vampires remain vampires, and the slayers will retain their powers. But does that mean all the slayers, or just Buffy & Faith? So no more demons at all (what will happen to Oz & Bay?), no witches, no other magic. Then why do vampires & Slayers remain?

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Scobro agrees: after Miss K said Buffy or Xander writing, I thought Andrew.. would have made since esp. after storyteller.

Especially since that's the Watcher Library where Melaka found those books, and Andrew is now pretty much the head Watcher by default.

 

[nmcil12]

epic imagery

LOL - what with all the Willow & Spike marriage imagery in the Las Vegas Spike series - who the hell knows anymore -

I don't know what to think about the Buffyverse anymore - Frankly the only issue that touched my heart was "The Chain." - The only think that touched my emotions, and it was all completely negative, was the treatment of women in the series.

For me Season 8 has been one great big disappointment -

 

[Kean]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the account Melaka has of the final battle was written by Andrew... and we know how rambling he can be in his accounts. If you had his story in fragmentary form, it might be very confusing indeed, and a mention of Starbucks somewhere wouldn't be out of the question.

Plus, his love for drama leads him to define every brave death he witnesses as a "sacrifice"... Anya sacrificed herself to save him, Giles/Gates sacrificed himself to save the world... even though that wasn't likely what either one of them had in mind.

Exactly. Buffy and Xander tell them all what happened in that cavern and then Andrew goes away with his interpretation. I can totally see that, History nearly always demands a hero, Andrew would have been only too happy to provide one. Especially in this story where there is nothing even resembling a hero to be found.

Also, random thought, is Andrew the last watcher now?

Travers is turning in his grave.

---------- Post added at 06:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:41 PM ----------

What is the point of this series anymore if nothing matters - if all the deaths and chaos of this season can simply be put to right by claiming that the characters are not in control of their lives or events. If all that has to happen from the consequences of "choices" is that I am asked to accepted the premise that it all comes down to magic and the characters are absolved for their actions - what is the point?

Honestly, I suspect that the story may have run away from Joss. Actually, I'd argue that Buffy hasn't been a story about heroism since S6, that's me though.