Discussion of 8.40 "Coda" - Released 1/19/11 (Dark Horse)

idk.

While this was one of the best issues in a long time, that isn't really saying much considering the last, like, 20 of them. As far as resolving things goes, it doesn't really answer any of the bigger questions... it just seems to pose more.

For example: Why isn't Buffy in jail? She led a huge terrorist squad and almost destroyed the world. She gets to serve coffee now?

hm. I guess that's the only question I have. How come Buffy is allowed to get away with turning the world on its head? Yeah, she's been a part of global-scale stuff before, but a) nobody really knew about her and b) it wasn't ever directly her fault.

Idk. I'm exhausted from s8, and this issue didn't really do much to help except for tell me that we're going back to basics. Could have handled that in the first ten or fifteen issues of s8 and then the last few years wouldn't have been such crap.
 
S
SpaceLord
Interesting question but I have come to the conclusion that only Faith and to somewhat lesser degree Spike has to take responsibility for their actions
My goodness this issue sucked. S7 deja vu - everyone is all "Buffy was wrong" but Spike is all Buffy is right and the obvious implication is that this is indeed the case. And why is everyone blaming her for breaking the seed and not for helping rate Twilight in the first place? I know, because everybody in this comic is freaking moron!

Other than everyone disliking Buffy, the supposed apocalypse to top all apocalypse is all but ignored. Nobody is itching to kill Angel and we don't get a PoV from some average Joe to see how the public deals with the existence of demons and vampires. They might as well have fought the battle underground without anyone noticing it! Nobody stops to think whether there is even a need for Slayers in a world where the veil of secrecy is gone. I so knew this would happen.

Willow is drugged through the mud some more. Breaking the seed is worse than the destruction of the world? Shut up, Willow! And if it's true she in love with the aptly named "exposition snake"...well, I have no words.



It's kind of hard to trust somebody who doesn't trust you. Especially if this someone behaves like a lunatic.

Willow is a well educated witch who knows more about the seed and the Earth than Buffy did, when she says something she generally has credibility. Buffy wasn't all knowing right the fact is her actions were from desperation not knowledge, and like the empowerment spell things could go just as bad. Willow's character has more going for her now because she can change who she is, and of all characters she is capable of the impossible. Buffy is part of the reason the world was in danger because she helped Angel in the process of giving birth to Twilight, she isn't some noble hero by stopping Twilight she's just cleaning up the mess she made, her actions were by far anything but honorable in the last arc, her prorities were terrible, the Twilight mess could have been easily avoided and there would be no reason for everyone to be angry right now. She did some good things in the last arc but she really dropped her moral compass which is why she is the betrayal, which breaking the seed was a consequence of.
 
S
SpaceLord
But did Willow know about the seed until Spike showed up and told them about it?
I loved this issue with a big caveat, but I'll get to that later. Characterizations were perfect, and this was written with the quality of BS3, just amazing, and it finally starts to make sense in regards to contiguous character growth. I had a smile on my face from pg 2 forward.

Now for the HUGE criticism... "I'm sure of Dick. Except I'm the only one willing to handle. You can't look at [Angel]. Everyone else wants his head on a Pike. Me... I'm all about forgiveness," says Faith.

^This line actually caused me to yell out "you suck!" directed at Joss Whedon, though it's probably unlikely that he heard, lol. I get that from however you look at it, Faith probably is the most qualified to rehab Angel. It makes sense from their character development, and from a literary perspective. What doesn't make sense is Connor and Spike just abandoning him after at least two years of fostering a relationship with Angel.

Whedon even goes out of his way to cite Ryall & Lynch for helping him do his canon Angel story with IDW in the epilogue of this issue. But even if we were to look past After the Fall, AS5 alone makes it seem damned unlikely that Spike & Connor would just abandon him in his time of need--and not either help or kill him.

Gunn & Illyria make more sense being MIA, Gunn having explicitly said his loyalty is to the good fight over Angel specifically, and Illyria being connected with Angel least of the team.

An argument can also be made for Cordy being MIA not making sense, since Whedon established in AtF that she could manifest to Angel given sufficient cause & effort, something tells me him trying to destroy Earth should be reason enough...

As much as I adored this issue, it pisses me off that the Angel we saw was essentially the Angel who left Sunnydale in BS3, throwing out 5 seasons and one book of character development which Whedon established himself.

PS-re Giles: I thought that was perfect and expected, regarding his will. Before Faith even mused on it, I came to the same conclusion. Plus, I'd be shocked if he hasn't returned by Season 10 or 11.
 
B
behindthewheel
[No message]
Willow is a well educated witch who knows more about the seed and the Earth than Buffy did, when she says something she generally has credibility.

Not really, she didn't have a clue about the Seed until "exposition snake" got to do some infodumping. Plus, it's ridiculous to say that the world being destroyed might be worse than what Buffy did. What could be worse than total destruction? Willow should get back to science and logic and get rid of this "earth power" nonsense, IMO.

Buffy is part of the reason the world was in danger because she helped Angel in the process of giving birth to Twilight, she isn't some noble hero by stopping Twilight she's just cleaning up the mess she made, her actions were by far anything but honorable in the last arc, her prorities were terrible, the Twilight mess could have been easily avoided and there would be no reason for everyone to be angry right now.

Well, that's what I said - it's flabbergasting that people are blaming Buffy for the seed's destruction rather than for letting things go that far in the first place. Of course, if they do that, the writers would have to bother to make clear how much Buffy was actually under the influence of the "glow" and we can't have that, can we?


While this was one of the best issues in a long time, that isn't really saying much considering the last, like, 20 of them. As far as resolving things goes, it doesn't really answer any of the bigger questions... it just seems to pose more.

Yes, I think the problem with this issue isn't so much what it does show, it's more what it does not show.
 
I loved this issue with a big caveat, but I'll get to that later. Characterizations were perfect, and this was written with the quality of BS3, just amazing, and it finally starts to make sense in regards to contiguous character growth. I had a smile on my face from pg 2 forward.

Now for the HUGE criticism... "I'm sure of Dick. Except I'm the only one willing to handle. You can't look at [Angel]. Everyone else wants his head on a Pike. Me... I'm all about forgiveness," says Faith.

^This line actually caused me to yell out "you suck!" directed at Joss Whedon, though it's probably unlikely that he heard, lol. I get that from however you look at it, Faith probably is the most qualified to rehab Angel. It makes sense from their character development, and from a literary perspective. What doesn't make sense is Connor and Spike just abandoning him after at least two years of fostering a relationship with Angel.

Whedon even goes out of his way to cite Ryall & Lynch for helping him do his canon Angel story with IDW in the epilogue of this issue. But even if we were to look past After the Fall, AS5 alone makes it seem damned unlikely that Spike & Connor would just abandon him in his time of need--and not either help or kill him.

Gunn & Illyria make more sense being MIA, Gunn having explicitly said his loyalty is to the good fight over Angel specifically, and Illyria being connected with Angel least of the team.

An argument can also be made for Cordy being MIA not making sense, since Whedon established in AtF that she could manifest to Angel given sufficient cause & effort, something tells me him trying to destroy Earth should be reason enough...

As much as I adored this issue, it pisses me off that the Angel we saw was essentially the Angel who left Sunnydale in BS3, throwing out 5 seasons and one book of character development which Whedon established himself.

PS-re Giles: I thought that was perfect and expected, regarding his will. Before Faith even mused on it, I came to the same conclusion. Plus, I'd be shocked if he hasn't returned by Season 10 or 11.

Well, with Spike, I think he's being Mr. Practical at the moment. I think maybe he's leaving it up to Faith because he knows she probably is the most qualified of all of them to rehab Angel, while he's of much more help trying to fix the world and protect Buffy.

I'm with you on the rest of the Angel's team though, though I don't know...they were never addressed at all in BtVS, were they? I think it's just shoddy writing, trying to cram the two universes together like this.
 
But even if we were to look past After the Fall, AS5 alone makes it seem damned unlikely that Spike & Connor would just abandon him in his time of need--and not either help or kill him.

As much as I adored this issue, it pisses me off that the Angel we saw was essentially the Angel who left Sunnydale in BS3, throwing out 5 seasons and one book of character development which Whedon established himself.

PS-re Giles: I thought that was perfect and expected, regarding his will. Before Faith even mused on it, I came to the same conclusion. Plus, I'd be shocked if he hasn't returned by Season 10 or 11.

As to the first paragraph, ITA with regards to Connor. But Spike did fight with him during the big battle, he did his part. I don't see that he has an obligation at this point. As far as Connor or any of the other ATS/ATF gang, I'm confused as to whether Dark Horse could use those characters. Did IDW "own" their comic selves? But that's confusing since Joss was their creator, and I don't think he expressly asked permission to use Spike & Angel in Buffy s8, right?

Your 2nd paragraph: I still do completely agree with that point, even though I did like this issue, & do like the idea of Faith helping Angel. But it pisses me off that it came to this point, and it was not addressed by Joss either in the letter or the 1 interview I read (still have not read the Buffyfest interview).

As to the 3rd point, God I hope not. As much as I liked Giles & hated to see him die, the resurrection thing gets old.
 
As to the 3rd point, God I hope not. As much as I liked Giles & hated to see him die, the resurrection thing gets old.

Seconded. If Giles is brought back then I will more than likely walk away from the verse because there will be NO reason to stay. The story telling would be worthless. Giles seriously needs to stay dead, not just for the integrity of storytelling in general but for the integrity of this specific story.

I say this as Uber Angel fan, but Giles death needs to be real. The consequences of the death need to be real and Angel needs to make amends. If Giles is brought back Angel gets the easy ride and this whole season would be for nothing and I don't want that. When he claws his way back (and he will) I want it to be because he earned. Only then will we know he deserves any forgiveness he receives.

I don't want him off the hook, some things need to count.
 
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
[No message]
B
behindthewheel
[No message]
If Giles is brought back Angel gets the easy ride and this whole season would be for nothing and I don't want that. When he claws his way back (and he will) I want it to be because he earned. Only then will we know he deserves any forgiveness he receives.

I don't want him off the hook, some things need to count.

And yet, regardless of how much remorse, mental anguish, and self loathing that Angel might feel, no matter how many tears he might shed or hours that he might sit in the dark brooding, Angel has still managed to slither off of the biggest hook in the entire Buffyverse. Imagine the single mastermind responsible for 9-11, or even the guy who walked into a shopping mall with a shotgun being allowed to get away with their crimes simply by saying that they had suffered hours of recriminating thoughts alone in a dark room, and now they were ready to try and make things right.

Angel committed crimes against humanity, killed literally thousands of people, and was a key part of a plot that almost succeeded in destroying, not just the world, but the entire universe, and, by the very nature of the story line and the characters as we know them, he is going to walk away whistling, with no more penalty to pay society for his crimes that he committed than Dawn did for her shoplifting binge.

I'm not trying to say the Angel is the first of Joss' characters to get a pass on all of their past evil acts, but Angel has cost more lives and done more damage than all of the previous Big Bads COMBINED. We all know that he's not going to be appropriately punished by the society that he tried to destroy, because that would result in his death, or, at the very least, an eternity in prison. Obviously, as has been pointed out, Angel will have his own title in Season 9, so he's gotten away with it. At least after Season 2, he spent a century in hell. After Season 8, he's gonna spend a few months in a dark room.

And, yes, I do realize that Willow never really answered for her crimes in Season 6, Spike never answered for all of the things that he has done throughout the series, Anya never had to atone for her crimes, and even Faith, the one person in either series to attempt to pay her debt to society, would up breaking out of prison. I never said that Angel was the only one in the Buffyverse with a "get out fo jail free" card. He just seems like the only one who has a whole deck of them.
 
Z
zobothehobo
[No message]
B
behindthewheel
as much as I think one needs to pay for ones crimes, it wouldn't be a very fun continuation of the comic though, the eternal prisonstay...
Angel committed crimes against humanity, killed literally thousands of people, and was a key part of a plot that almost succeeded in destroying, not just the world, but the entire universe, and, by the very nature of the story line and the characters as we know them, he is going to walk away whistling, with no more penalty to pay society for his crimes that he committed than Dawn did for her shoplifting binge.

I beg to differ. Dawn actually paid back the items she had stolen or at least intended to. Sure, Angel can't really resurrect people or turn back time (unless this is what the plot requires of him) but he can surrender to justice. And no, surrendering to Faith or Buffy doesn't really count as they are quite biased. He won't because for Joss "grey" characters apparently means murderers who sometimes feel a bit bad for their crimes. Angel's superpowers are all but irrelevant in a world where everyone knows about vampires and demons so he has even less of an excuse now. Shouldn't he be the world's most wanted man anyway? Plenty of people saw him after he took off the mask, IIRC. Oh, well, I bet nobody will be looking for him in S9.

At least after Season 2, he spent a century in hell. After Season 8, he's gonna spend a few months in a dark room.

To be fair, it's not as if spending that time in hell had any long term impact on Angel whatsoever. It was a get out of jail card too.

If Giles is brought back Angel gets the easy ride and this whole season would be for nothing and I don't want that. When he claws his way back (and he will) I want it to be because he earned.

Earned it? That's so last century! It's all about instant forgiveness, if you ask Joss nowadays.
 
I'm also really hurt by Giles leaving everything to one of my least favourite characters....Faith. Buffy is HIS Slayer and always will be so what's the deal? Has he forgotten everything Faith did to Buffy? Apparently.
 
G
GrrArghx
[No message]
I'm not sure exactly what the significance of Giles leaving all of his property to Faith is, but I am sure that it wasn't to in any way belittle what he felt for Buffy. (Maybe the "Vampyre" book has a treasure map in it, or at least some very special, heart felt message just for her) Just for plain practicality, maybe Giles just thought that Faith wouldn't have any sort of home or income unless he provided one for her.

What it comes down to, quite likely, is exactly what Spike told Giles in "Empty Places." Buffy has surpassed him, or at least reached the point in her life where she no longer actually needed Giles' support and parental advise in order to live a normal, ordered life. Faith, on the other hand, still did need someone to help her get through the normal routine matters of daily life. If Giles couldn't be there in person, at least he could see to it that she had a home, assured financial independence, and basically just a chance to start a decent life for herself.
 
I'm not sure exactly what the significance of Giles leaving all of his property to Faith is, but I am sure that it wasn't to in any way belittle what he felt for Buffy. (Maybe the "Vampyre" book has a treasure map in it, or at least some very special, heart felt message just for her) Just for plain practicality, maybe Giles just thought that Faith wouldn't have any sort of home or income unless he provided one for her.

What it comes down to, quite likely, is exactly what Spike told Giles in "Empty Places." Buffy has surpassed him, or at least reached the point in her life where she no longer actually needed Giles' support and parental advise in order to live a normal, ordered life. Faith, on the other hand, still did need someone to help her get through the normal routine matters of daily life. If Giles couldn't be there in person, at least he could see to it that she had a home, assured financial independence, and basically just a chance to start a decent life for herself.

It's that that bugs me though... I mean when my parents die, regardless of if I *need* it or not, I expect to be giving my share of their valuable possessions. My sisters and I have picked out the paintings we're getting and the rugs and the jewelery from my mom. Dad's a lot trickier because he really doesn't have anything of much value except the house... but whatever... for the purposes of this we'll stick with mom because I've got a good comparison with her. Mom has "unofficially adopted" my middle sister's best friend. She's got a key, she comes to family functions and dinners... she's a part of the family. If mom decided to leave everything to her because she needed it more I'd be pissed. I can see it tearing up my sister's friendship with her too. I'd especially be really hurt and angry if I had a bad history with my unofficial sister like Buffy did with Faith. Buffy was HIS slayer. When I read that bit it kind of felt like a "How dare you" situation. How dare he turn his back on all those years, on all those feelings and experiences, on all that love? How dare he turn around and give everything Buffy deserved and earned through those years, feelings, experienced, and love to kind of her mortal enemy? Sure it helped Faith, but did he think about what it would do to Buffy? Did he consider not only that she might need a place to live, but that she might need to feel his love too? Even if she'd outgrown the NEED for a parent around her all the time, no one outgrows the need to be loved. No one.
 
OK, so, I've thoroughly spoilered myself again... really need to actually read Season 8 properly at some point XD

BY the sounds of it, though, Season 9 should be interesting, if it really is going to be very character driven. Especially as it sounds like the "Scooby gang" has kind of dispersed...

I find it kind of odd that people are angry with Giles for leaving stuff to Faith... for one thing, at the end of the day, it was all his stuff, it was up to him who he left it to. Yes, in the earlier seasons, Buffy was "like a daughter to him", but in S7, it seemed to be growing very distant, much more like allies, fellow fighters, than father and daughter. It was Spike that Buffy turned to in Season 7, and whilst I disagree that Spike was the only one that had her back (Being "yes Buffy, no Buffy, 3 bags full, Buffy" because he's in love with her doesn't mean that he's the only one loyal to her, just as people thinking she's making a bad call doesn't make them traitors, IMO, but I guess that's a S7 discussion, and not for here- also, please don't get me wrong, I love Spike, but he annoyed me a little in S7), she and Giles had grown apart. Giles was a father figure to her, and she was a daughter figure to him, but these things can change. Faith and Giles grew closer in S8, and it may have been because of that, or it may have been because he felt Faith needed it more, but perhaps he saw Faith as a daughter, to some extent, to. His feelings for Faith may have been just as strong, or warm, or whatever, as his feelings for Buffy. So why should Buffy have an automatic right to it? And what about Willow, Dawn, etc.?

And for people saying that Faith wronged Buffy- yes, she did. And Buffy's friends. But she turned herself in, went to jail, came to fight the good fight. She has been treated with more distrust than Angel, than Spike, than Willow- and you could argue that was because she wasn't as close to Buffy as these three were, but there we go... If every other character has the right to redemption, and be forgiven, then why shouldn't it be the case that Giles believed she had sought redemption and deserved forgiveness for her past actions, and to be judged on her actions since then? Or is it only almighty-Buffy who is allowed to decree who should be forgiven?

... OK, this sounded really anti-Buffy and annoyed >< Peace and love to all, I guess I've got a soft spot for Giles, and quite liking Faith...
 
W
WakingNightmare
[No message]
And yet, regardless of how much remorse, mental anguish, and self loathing that Angel might feel, no matter how many tears he might shed or hours that he might sit in the dark brooding, Angel has still managed to slither off of the biggest hook in the entire Buffyverse. Imagine the single mastermind responsible for 9-11, or even the guy who walked into a shopping mall with a shotgun being allowed to get away with their crimes simply by saying that they had suffered hours of recriminating thoughts alone in a dark room, and now they were ready to try and make things right.

Angel committed crimes against humanity, killed literally thousands of people, and was a key part of a plot that almost succeeded in destroying, not just the world, but the entire universe, and, by the very nature of the story line and the characters as we know them, he is going to walk away whistling, with no more penalty to pay society for his crimes that he committed than Dawn did for her shoplifting binge.

I'm not trying to say the Angel is the first of Joss' characters to get a pass on all of their past evil acts, but Angel has cost more lives and done more damage than all of the previous Big Bads COMBINED. We all know that he's not going to be appropriately punished by the society that he tried to destroy, because that would result in his death, or, at the very least, an eternity in prison. Obviously, as has been pointed out, Angel will have his own title in Season 9, so he's gotten away with it. At least after Season 2, he spent a century in hell. After Season 8, he's gonna spend a few months in a dark room.

And, yes, I do realize that Willow never really answered for her crimes in Season 6, Spike never answered for all of the things that he has done throughout the series, Anya never had to atone for her crimes, and even Faith, the one person in either series to attempt to pay her debt to society, would up breaking out of prison. I never said that Angel was the only one in the Buffyverse with a "get out fo jail free" card. He just seems like the only one who has a whole deck of them.

And if we were reading Law and Order this would we a justified argument but we're not, we're reading Buffy the Vampire Slayer and the punishment that characters receive has to fit this verse. even when they tried to show someone doing time for their crimes a la Faith, she busts out after 2 years of a 25 year sentence. That's hardly her paying her debt to society is it? I know if it was a real world situation there would be uproar. Yet, in this fandom, we see Faith has having paid her dues.

There's no mystical guidebook. No all-knowing council. Human rules don't apply
 
I
InsaneMystic
I still say that the punishment fitting the verse is a pointed piece of hardwood applied forcefully to the chesty area. :p
S
SpaceLord
One difference is that Faith isn't a repeat offender, after she busted out she hasn't killed people for the greater good or anything.
Here's my review:

I have the impression that season 8's arc was initially supposed to be season 7's arc (on a smaller scale), if it wasn't the last season. Apparently, Joss is fascinated with power and its temptations. AtS explored these problems in depth in later seasons. BtVS season 7 started with Joss-penned "Lessons" in which The First in Buffy's guise says "it's about power" after parading through looks of memorable villains from previous seasons. The episode was clearly setting up Buffy's Big Fall... except you can't end the show with your protagonist at its worst -- and the idea was scrapped as soon as SMG refused to commit to another season.

So, the "it's about power" idea had been developed in season 8 - and the result is fascinating, if a bit too controversial. Buffy undergoes a trial by power - and fails it. She makes terrible mistakes because she lets her heart make decisions for her. Because she's not a general by nature. She's a soldier. She is *manus*, a hand. She can lead into a fight but she can't lead into a war. It doesn't paint her neither negatively nor positively - it's just a fact. It takes a certain type of personality to sacrifice people for the greater good and to plan casualties in advance. Any society needs such people to survive. Buffy, Faith, Spike aren't generals. Angel, Giles, Wesley are.

In the end, all of them are screwed by power and by historical processes. Because in Jossverse once you start making deals with your conscience, you can't stop. Evil engulfs you, and your fall is inevitable.

Season 8 may beat season 7 by the number of the loose ends. Joss says in his letter that he changed his plans for season 9 in the middle of season 8 (according to Allie, it happened around #28), and it shows. It's still unclear if Angel has saved the world at a terrible price or he has almost ended it because of his gullibility. What circumstances forced Buffy to rob a bank? Why has she created a semi-military organization in the first place? How much of space-frak was her free will and how much glowhypnol's influence?

But, apparently Joss thinks it's not important. The big picture doesn't interest him as much as characters' journeys. Or maybe it's his way to provide as much controversy as possible.

So, after all the trials we're back to the beginning in character dynamics: Buffy is an outsider; Willow is a nerdy girl who's good with computers; Xander is their loyal friend; Spike will most likely take Giles' role. The excesses of season 8 are over; we're back to lean and mean storytelling Joss excels at.

The issue itself is very good. The dialogues are stellar and Jeanty's art is expressive and full of nuances. One of my favorite details is the calendar with a Golden Gate picture next to the window with a grim urbanistic view. They live in San-Francisco and see its landmark on a picture. Very typical for people with 9 to 5 job.

Jeanty nails Buffy's facial expressions; his Buffy is older and wiser, but she's still the Buffy we know.

The issue has many subtle references to the former events of the show. Buffy dealing with three attacking not-slayers is very similar to the scene of the training in the first arc. Simone - a new agent of chaos - shoots general in the head the way he shot Ethan Rayne while roses on Giles' coffin are sad callback to "Passion".

Giles leaving all his possessions to Faith has caused a controversy - but, to me it's a perfect ending of Giles and Faith's story. It's apparent that Giles has written his will when Buffy still had her castle and Faith was homeless. Faith becoming a rich heiress bookends nicely her face-off with Gigi in NFFY and, on larger scale, her underdog situation in previous seasons. Faith inherits Giles' flat and estate, but Buffy inherits the title of The Slayer (since the other slayers don't want to be called slayers.)

Dawn pretending having wild animal sex with Xander to drive Buffy off the couch is comedy gold. I may have a one-track mind, but I immediately imagined a scene in season 6 when Buffy invited Spike in Casa Summers; they woke up Dawn with their shenanigans, and here's her little revenge.

The biggest surprise is Willow's breaking up with Kennedy somewhere off camera. Why didn't Joss show us how it happened? Probably he wanted to leave it open to interpretation - it's hard to say if Kennedy was really planning to leave Willow, or it happened because Willow has plans to bring back Saga Vasuki and doesn't want Kennedy to be around. Or because she doesn't want to get her hurt.

Xander/Dawn happy family life makes me uneasy - I caught myself on the thought that the payback for their bliss will most likely be horrific. But - who knows? - maybe Joss will keep them happy for a while to make Buffy more miserable.

Faith helping Angel to redeem himself is a great move; there is a great potential in their interaction. I can't wait to see them in season 9.

Speaking of season 9, I'm very curious about Joss' plans. We know that he has "completely changed his plan for season 9" around #28 - i.e., the arc about slayers trying to renounce their power and live a peacefull life in a Buddhist monastery. In issue #40 we see Simone starting her personal vendetta on Buffy; maybe season 9 will be dealing with the remains of the slayers who become dangerous for humanity.

On the penultimate page we see a fairy from the underground kingdom in The Chain. So, magic still exists there. I wonder it the fairy's appearance signifies that there will be more of her story in season 9. As fas as I remember, fairies lay eggs in human ears; knowing Joss love for subversion, I won't be surprised it fairies will be depicted as distant cousins of Alien Queen.

We also see a mysterious man in red sunglasses. The most interesting theory so far is that it's a young Giles - Ripper. As bizarre as it sounds, it's a very Jossian idea. Do you remember Giles and Spike on the swings in "Restless"? If Spike can turn into a Buffy's new unofficial watcher, then Giles turning into a sexy obnoxious punk would be an awesome way to keep the balance. [Okay, I admit, sometimes I have weird fantasies].


Shipping matters:
It's interesting how season 8 has managed to piss off both shipping factions. Bangels have lost their moral superiority. Now, if a Bangel calls Spuffy shippers "rapist lovers", they could easily strike back by recounting all Angel's crimes in season 8, including the dubious consent issue because of glowhypnol. While Spuffies have lost their aesthetic superiority. They can't argue anymore that Bangel is a juvenile romance: post-season 8 it's a complex, controversial and adult story. (But, to me, Spuffies have another artistic advantage: our couple is great in both grand Jossverse genres - tragedy and comedy - while Bangel belongs to tragedy only.)

So, it's up to every shipper to decide if the glass is half-full or half-empty.

On one hand, Buffy admits that "boinking Twilight" was a betrayal and she "can't even look at Angel"; and Spike "is not invited" into the apartment where she lives.

OTOH, Jossverse is ultimately about redemption, and it means that eventually Buffy will forgive Angel. Apocalypses are dime a dozen in Jossverse and Bangel is the signature couple of the franchize. (Willow tried to end the world too, and was redeemed practically immediately.) That said, judging by #40, next season will be very Spuffy-friendly. I have the impression that writers will never leave Spike out of the equation and keep the triangle going forever.

So, after all the fuss we're back to the standard status quo: Buffy has feelings for both Spike and Angel, but can't be with neither of them. She can't be with Angel because of Giles' death (another plot device since the curse doesn't exist in this new magic-less universe) and she can't be with Spike because he believes that she only loves Angel, and she's too burdened by her guilt to dissuade him.

I like that Joss sets up Spike as Giles-cum-Angel of season 1. In #40 he is not the exposition guy he was in #36-37, but a pretty guy in white shirt who patrols Buffy's window, with fire escape playing the role of their traditional backporch.

The biggest problem with any Spuffy development in season 9 is that it's very hard to invent a good torture for them. How to evoke a lot of pain and misery from two people who are frighteningly close to becoming a Dawn/Xander redux? Because in my mind they are. We were explicitly told that Buffy still has romantic feelings for Spike (she daydreams about Spuffy sex in a Joss-penned scene in #37). Since Buffy is the protagonist, Spike is and will always be all.about.Buffy - at least, on BtVS. There is no major outside obstacles (like a curse) and no big character-driven barriers. He doesn't feel beneath her anymore: he's a local Han Solo while she's in disgrace. Their UST is practically palpable. Spike parks his ship on Buffy roof again and again, tries to just be there for her. She teases him about Harmory (jealous much?), throws in very telling non-sequiturs ('why did we ever break up?") and becomes a terrible klutz the moment the situation begs Spike to hug and comfort her. She's having regular Spangel nightmares. She feels unworthy - but, of course, Spike thinks differently. They only need to make a small step toward each other.

It's a paradize for ficwriters, but it's too tame for Jossverse. To make Spuffy ship dramatically viable, Joss has work to hard to find a radical new way to make our favorite blondes utterly miserable and heartbroken because of their feelings.

But I believe in Joss' sadistic genius. He'll find a way to make Spuffy angstastic again.
 
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
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prophecygrrl
What StarSlayer said! :D I really like your observations!
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Buffy4ever2k10
Just AWESOME! :)
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behindthewheel
Very nice review:D
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SailorSarah
[No message]
And if we were reading Law and Order this would we a justified argument but we're not, we're reading Buffy the Vampire Slayer and the punishment that characters receive has to fit this verse. even when they tried to show someone doing time for their crimes a la Faith, she busts out after 2 years of a 25 year sentence. That's hardly her paying her debt to society is it? I know if it was a real world situation there would be uproar. Yet, in this fandom, we see Faith has having paid her dues.

There's no mystical guidebook. No all-knowing council. Human rules don't apply

I agree. I get so frustrated with this whole argument about Angel. WA, you've stated your opinion over and over again. What would you rather have happen at this moment? That Faith & Buffy together stake the dude? OK, don't answer that, I know what you're going to say already. So, fine. Then don't read season 9 if you're (general you now) so determined that Angel will not have to make reparations & it's disgusting to you. I mean seriously, why read it at all? I'm just as disgusted as everyone else at Angel's actions, but I'm more disgusted that the writers (Allie in particular) took it to this level. I think it shows that they do not understand his character at all. Of course, we've debated that issue as well, so I guess this discussion will never end.

The fact of the matter is that this is a mystical universe. The good that any of these characters can do is always weighed out against the bad. If the good is greater, then yes, they generally do not have to face the same kind of consequences as the real world. Was it right for Wes to break Faith out of jail? In human terms, no, she hadn't finished her sentence for her crimes. But she was needed: the good she could do at that point outweighed the need for her to finish her punishment. And they didn't exactly deliver her back to prison after she fought Angelus. She was of more use to the world outside jail than in.

Now, can Angel ever atone for such massive atrocities? I don't know, I have no idea what the writers have in store for him. I sure hope they take clues from ATS about how he functions the best: with his friends around him. Having Faith with him is a start.

I'll leave you with the words of Rupert Giles from season 2, which set the tone for the entire series: "To forgive is an act of compassion, Buffy. It's-it's... it's not done because people deserve it. It's done because they need it."
 
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SpaceLord
The only problem with Angel trying to atone for this is that a lot of innocent people will die then too. The guy just can't do it right
white avenger
white avenger
Sorry if I gave the impression that I was offended or felt "jumped on." Differences of opinion are what make it fun here. If we all just sat around agreeing with each other it'd be plumb boring.
The fact of the matter is that this is a mystical universe. The good that any of these characters can do is always weighed out against the bad. If the good is greater, then yes, they generally do not have to face the same kind of consequences as the real world. Was it right for Wes to break Faith out of jail? In human terms, no, she hadn't finished her sentence for her crimes. But she was needed: the good she could do at that point outweighed the need for her to finish her punishment. And they didn't exactly deliver her back to prison after she fought Angelus. She was of more use to the world outside jail than in.

But now everybody knows about vampires and demons, so the "Faith/Angel/Buffy/whoever is irreplaceable in the fight against evil" excuse doesn't really work.

But, apparently Joss thinks it's not important. The big picture doesn't interest him as much as characters' journeys. Or maybe it's his way to provide as much controversy as possible.

Or maybe he is just a lazy writer who these days needs a dictionary to understand what continuity means.

Any society needs such people to survive. Buffy, Faith, Spike aren't generals. Angel, Giles, Wesley are.

So what was the point of the ridiculously unsubtle message of S7 about Buffy being the greatest leader in the history of the world then? Seems to me Joss wants to have it both ways.

And if we were reading Law and Order this would we a justified argument but we're not, we're reading Buffy the Vampire Slayer and the punishment that characters receive has to fit this verse. even when they tried to show someone doing time for their crimes a la Faith, she busts out after 2 years of a 25 year sentence. That's hardly her paying her debt to society is it? I know if it was a real world situation there would be uproar. Yet, in this fandom, we see Faith has having paid her dues.

I don't see it that way. In fact, I still wonder how the hell Faith could inherit anything. Isn't she a fugitive from the law?
 
But now everybody knows about vampires and demons, so the "Faith/Angel/Buffy/whoever is irreplaceable in the fight against evil" excuse doesn't really work.

You know, I'm unclear about this. It seems unclear to me just how much the general public knows, and how much they're willing to admit to. I wonder how the government spun things. As far as the big fight- we've seen in other apocalyptic fights that just because big, bad things are happening one specific place (LA, Sunnydale, etc) doesn't necessarily mean the rest of the world knows about it. Anyway, since 40 is so focused on our characters, I'm just not sure how much the rest of the world is clued in on things.

Oh, and totally unrelated to this line of discussion, but I was completely expecting the General to be talking to somebody unexpected on the phone, maybe one of our characters who was maybe involved with him unbeknownst to us. But obviously that wasn't the case, or at least we didn't get to see who it was.

---------- Post added at 12:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 PM ----------

But now everybody knows about vampires and demons, so the "Faith/Angel/Buffy/whoever is irreplaceable in the fight against evil" excuse doesn't really work.

But even if everybody does know, that doesn't mean that just anybody can fight against them, especially now that magick is gone.
 
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