Discussion of 8.40 "Coda" - Released 1/19/11 (Dark Horse)

[Kean]

SpaceLord agrees: One difference is that Faith isn't a repeat offender, after she busted out she hasn't killed people for the greater good or anything.

Before I reply to this I just want to establish that I love Faith and her story. Her arc was my favourite in S8.

However, what you mentioned above? That's exactly what she did when she agreed to Giles' mission to kill that English slayer: it was a kill for the greater good.

 

[white avenger]

And if we were reading Law and Order this would we a justified argument but we're not, we're reading Buffy the Vampire Slayer and the punishment that characters receive has to fit this verse. even when they tried to show someone doing time for their crimes a la Faith, she busts out after 2 years of a 25 year sentence. That's hardly her paying her debt to society is it? I know if it was a real world situation there would be uproar. Yet, in this fandom, we see Faith has having paid her dues.

There's no mystical guidebook. No all-knowing council. Human rules don't apply

At least Faith faced her charges and had every intention of serving her entire sentence. Her duty as a Slayer and her loyalty to Angel made that impossible (remember, "it's the mission that counts.")

And as far as my stating my views on this subject "again and again," I wasn't aware that we were only allowed to discuss a topic once and never again. Does that mean that we can never discuss Bangel vs Spuffy again? Or whether or not Cordy should have stayed in Sunnydale and never moved to LA? I was under the impression that this was an open forum where anything pertaining to Joss' characters could be discussed at any time, as long as the discussion stayed within the bounds of decency and courtesy. I believe that my opinions about what the consequences of Angel's actions in Season 8 are valid, and I believe that I have stated them courteously and logically. Everyone here is free to share them, oppose them, or ignore them completely.

Having Buffy and Faith team up to stake Angel, despite what anyone here might believe, is NOT what I would like to see happen in Season 9. (That would mean that Spike would win the Eternal Argument by default. I want Angel to be there when Buffy chooses Spike.) What I WOULD like to see happen is for Angel to have to undergo a set of trials that would make the Labors of Hercules look like having to stay late after school for shooting spit balls in class, and we may very well see something like that. But until we do see it, Angel will remain the biggest unpunished murderer and terrorist in the history of the entire series.

 

[SpaceLord]

Was it right for Wes to break Faith out of jail? In human terms, no, she hadn't finished her sentence for her crimes. But she was needed: the good she could do at that point outweighed the need for her to finish her punishment. And they didn't exactly deliver her back to prison after she fought Angelus.

Kinda funny that you point out that another of Angel and his crews screw ups somehow end up being brought into this. They were the one that released Angelus if my memory serves me right so they busted Faith out of jail and served her up as a sacrifice to save their precious leader. It really shows what a crappy moral compass the whole team Angel has. I mean really she was pretty much sentenced to death but pulled through and then they sent her to fight a hopeless battle.

 

[VisionGirl]

Having Buffy and Faith team up to stake Angel, despite what anyone here might believe, is NOT what I would like to see happen in Season 9. (That would mean that Spike would win the Eternal Argument by default. I want Angel to be there when Buffy chooses Spike.) What I WOULD like to see happen is for Angel to have to undergo a set of trials that would make the Labors of Hercules look like having to stay late after school for shooting spit balls in class, and we may very well see something like that. But until we do see it, Angel will remain the biggest unpunished murderer and terrorist in the history of the entire series.

But a lot of us have completely agreed with you on this point (well, not the Spuffy point, but you know what I mean). Just because we are Angel fans does NOT mean we want him to get away scott-free. I very, very much like your idea, and I hope things are going to go that way. I do not like what they've done with Angel's character in s8 (& because he's one of my favorites, it bothers me a lot), so the writers better start thinking big to redeem his character next season. I think Faith agreeing to help him is a good start. I humbly suggest that Scott Allie spending the next 9 mos watching all 5 seasons of ATS & reading ATF would be another step in the right direction.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I would LOVE to see Buffy stake Angel and then stake Spike and just say "I am Buffy, the VAMPIRE slayer" running off to hook up with Riley is optional.

 

[Kean]

Having Buffy and Faith team up to stake Angel, despite what anyone here might believe, is NOT what I would like to see happen in Season 9. (That would mean that Spike would win the Eternal Argument by default. I want Angel to be there when Buffy chooses Spike.) What I WOULD like to see happen is for Angel to have to undergo a set of trials that would make the Labors of Hercules look like having to stay late after school for shooting spit balls in class, and we may very well see something like that. But until we do see it, Angel will remain the biggest unpunished murderer and terrorist in the history of the entire series.

How does Angel going through physical pain make up for any of things he did? It might make those who hate him feel better but I fail to see what good it creates or how it could ever be called redemption. Surely acts of goodness, that help the world, that make a positive difference are they only way to go?

 

[SpaceLord]

SpaceLord agrees: One difference is that Faith isn't a repeat offender, after she busted out she hasn't killed people for the greater good or anything.

Before I reply to this I just want to establish that I love Faith and her story. Her arc was my favourite in S8.

However, what you mentioned above? That's exactly what she did when she agreed to Giles' mission to kill that English slayer: it was a kill for the greater good.

Well I guess I see it differently I'm afraid, to me being human or not is not important if you are a valid target in this war. I have always thought it was stupid no killing humans, not in general but to kill the evil ones and with evil ones I mean those on the mystical side of evil in the buffyverse not Adol Hitlers.

To me anybody who gets involved in the mystical battle is a valid target, just like in a war if you sign up for either side the other side has a valid right to kill you.

So no I don't think that Faith accepting to kill the rogue slayer is wrong (of course I only remember the basic outline of the story, might be something I forgot or missed about it). Angel doing Twilight and killing innocents in the process for the greater good and really Angel should be killed as an enemy soldier or even a traitor either one works. You can't really claim to have been working from the inside if you are the leader of the other side.

Can you imagine that defence if Adolf hadn't killed in himself:
"yeah you know I'm really on your side, this war was just to prevent something worse. Trust me I'm all good. Can I go sit in a dark room and mull my mistakes over for a couple of minutes now?"

 

[white avenger]

How does Angel going through physical pain make up for any of things he did? It might make those who hate him feel better but I fail to see what good it creates or how it could ever be called redemption. Surely acts of goodness, that help the world, that make a positive difference are they only way to go?

Physical pain was never suggested in anything that I proposed as what I thought would be appropriate as an attempt an atonement for Angel. What I said was:

"What I WOULD like to see happen is for Angel to have to undergo a set of trials that would make the Labors of Hercules look like having to stay late after school for shooting spit balls in class,"

While Hercules most certainly felt physical pain on more than one occasion in the fulfilling of his Labors, the purpose of them was to allow him to atone for his crimes and offenses. Of course, of you don't think that Ol' Broodie is up to the task, maybe we should just have him write, "I will not try to destroy the universe," a few billion times. It wouldn't be anywhere near as interesting story that way, though.

 

[VisionGirl]

Can you imagine that defence if Adolf hadn't killed in himself:
"yeah you know I'm really on your side, this war was just to prevent something worse. Trust me I'm all good. Can I go sit in a dark room and mull my mistakes over for a couple of minutes now?"

Sigh. Again, none of us are saying that we think this is an acceptable path of redemption.

 

[citiegal17]

SpaceLord agrees: But did Willow know about the seed until Spike showed up and told them about it?

I don't think she knew about it, but she did know the Earth is a living thing, she could literally phsyically connect to the Earth on an extradionary level, Alwuyn informed her of the importance, I don't think she lied to Willow. In Lessons the lesson shared by Giles and Willow is that everything is a part of the Earth down to the smallest molecules and roots, in the most literal of sense. Willow's knows the slayer line is done for right now there will be no more, the Earth is potentionally worst off down the road, witches across the world have been violated on such a major level that contrasts to the empowerment spell I doubt all witches have been praticing in the case someone has space sex and they are left much more vulnerable, the balance is probably just as screwed up now, the balance for billons of years has been magic co-existing alongside with the rest of the world, it couldn't be more unbalanced if thats a big deal as they made it up to be this season with the empowerment spell.

 

[Icarium]

Willow's knows the slayer line is done for right now there will be no more, the Earth is potentionally worst off down the road

There wouldn't be "down the road" if the fight was lost. Willow and the not-Slayers conveniently ignore that.

Can you imagine that defence if Adolf hadn't killed in himself:
"yeah you know I'm really on your side, this war was just to prevent something worse. Trust me I'm all good. Can I go sit in a dark room and mull my mistakes over for a couple of minutes now?"

Couple of minutes? You are too harsh. Give the man half a minute to brood and he is absolved of any and all guilt. [/sarcasm].

You know, I'm unclear about this. It seems unclear to me just how much the general public knows, and how much they're willing to admit to. I wonder how the government spun things. As far as the big fight- we've seen in other apocalyptic fights that just because big, bad things are happening one specific place (LA, Sunnydale, etc) doesn't necessarily mean the rest of the world knows about it. Anyway, since 40 is so focused on our characters, I'm just not sure how much the rest of the world is clued in on things.

They know about vampires - Harmony is still a reality show celebrity and Buffy mentions vampire wannabes. And while I am quite certain Joss will pretend nothing happened, as of now, either everyone in the world is blind, deaf and dumb or they know about demons. Although everyone being dumb can explain a lot about the season. 🙂

But even if everybody does know, that doesn't mean that just anybody can fight against them, especially now that magick is gone.

It doesn't but without the veil of secrecy and the ability to sire new ones, vampires are pretty much done for. As for demons, modern weapons should dispose of them more easily than Buffy can, so...Of course, all this relies on the population of the world and the people in charge to have two braincells to rub together, so I am probably giving them way too much credit. Not that this is a new issue, it's been the elephant in the room ever since the Initiative arc but now it's worse since the people should be asking the governments what they are doing t oprevent future disasters liek the one just averted.

 

[VisionGirl]

Quote:
You know, I'm unclear about this. It seems unclear to me just how much the general public knows, and how much they're willing to admit to. I wonder how the government spun things. As far as the big fight- we've seen in other apocalyptic fights that just because big, bad things are happening one specific place (LA, Sunnydale, etc) doesn't necessarily mean the rest of the world knows about it. Anyway, since 40 is so focused on our characters, I'm just not sure how much the rest of the world is clued in on things.

They know about vampires - Harmony is still a reality show celebrity and Buffy mentions vampire wannabes. And while I am quite certain Joss will pretend nothing happened, as of now, either everyone in the world is blind, deaf and dumb or they know about demons. Although everyone being dumb can explain a lot about the season.

Yes, I know and I agree. I'm just not sure what's going on with people in general then. I mean, during the battle there were Amy & Warren sitting in some cafe (in Paris?) and nobody seems to notice that there's this gross-looking, skinless guy sitting there. As for the vampires, I guess I consider it akin to the general public's denial, kind of like in True Blood. I mean, according to Harmony's reality show, vampires are very sympathetic creatures.

Quote:
But even if everybody does know, that doesn't mean that just anybody can fight against them, especially now that magick is gone.

It doesn't but without the veil of secrecy and the ability to sire new ones, vampires are pretty much done for. As for demons, modern weapons should dispose of them more easily than Buffy can, so...Of course, all this relies on the population of the world and the people in charge to have two braincells to rub together, so I am probably giving them way too mcuh credit.

Well, I have a feeling that somehow they're going to bring magic back, even if just a little. I just don't seem them going on in this kind of world for very long. As soon as Buffy & the other Slayers (if they so choose) kill the vampires, that's pretty much it, like you said. A Slayer with no vampires to slay: how boring is that? And I still think we're going to hear the government spin, which a lot of people will believe, because that's how the public is.

 

[SpaceLord]

Sigh. Again, none of us are saying that we think this is an acceptable path of redemption.

Again I don't see any redemption option at all, those are just stupid ways to keep a character alive. To me he has stepped so far over the line it just becomes ridiculous to try and spin the redemption story again.

Again I'm not big on capital punishment but given Angels history and the Shoeshine prophecy about his role in the coming apocalypse I would say to kill him would be of the greater good and that would be irony at it's best I think. I mean really would you want a guy on your team that you know has pretty much failed every time he tries to do good? I mean looking at it like that even if he tries to do the right thing in the apocalypse he will probably just end up helping the bad guys anyway.

 

[Icarium]

I'm just not sure what's going on with people in general then.

That's because of bad writing, IMO. You simply cannot write such game-changing events and not show their repercussions probably. Buffy and Dawn shouldn't just crack jokes about Harmony and vampire wannabes - the public perception of vampires should be a crucial issue for Buffy. Joss wanted to have the massive battles and now wants to get back to basics. Well, guess what, you can't have your cake and eat it too, Joss!

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Joss wanted to have the massive battles and now wants to get back to basics. Well, guess what, you can't have your cake and eat it too, Joss!

Sure you can! You just have to put some ideas on a dart-board: global amnesia, one last spell cast, bullock bullock, and then throw some darts and see what sticks. At this point does it really matter? There would be very little chance that all of the events which transpired in season 8 could be spoke upon.. he wrote himself in a corner. Rebooting, basically what he did, was the only way out.

 

[citiegal17]

There wouldn't be "down the road" if the fight was lost. Willow and the not-Slayers conveniently ignore that.

No actually we don't know that, Buffy's actions threw that arguement away,we'll never know if she did something different they would have failed. Kennedy has a point it wasn't a done deal Buffy just gave up, thats kinda why she thinks its a failure. Its the opposite of everything she was trying to do throughout the year.

It doesn't but without the veil of secrecy and the ability to sire new ones, vampires are pretty much done for. As for demons, modern weapons should dispose of them more easily than Buffy can, so...Of course, all this relies on the population of the world and the people in charge to have two braincells to rub together, so I am probably giving them way too much credit. Not that this is a new issue, it's been the elephant in the room ever since the Initiative arc but now it's worse since the people should be asking the governments what they are doing t oprevent future disasters liek the one just averted.

So a bunch of Earth Wiccans are expected to have major weaponery just lying around, because its going to be so easy to get it, thats of course if they want it, or could afford it, or if its against their morals.I doubt Earth Wiccans are going to be carting around major amo, if they haven't been doing it since the begining, it would be kinda demeaning, and a pain in the ass, its not like all Earth wiccans are great muscle types either. Some slayers aren't off protecting people any more which equals more death to come from this loss. Vampires only need one to survive till magic comes back to spread like a disease, and demons are smart at least the most powerful ones are they are by survival instict going to plan ahead for survival and war.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Finally i got my issue and read it too. First of all. I liked the issue and the focus on Buffy and the scoobies but and that´s a big but. So here it comes folks. 🙂

I don´t like the 4 or even 6 months gap. It looks like nothing happend. The army lost thousands of soldiers but it seemed nobody really cared about that. Demons tried to conquer the earth and killed roughly thousands of people too if not a lot more and the earth was hit by several nature disasters like earthquakes,volcano eruptions and tsunamis but the humans act like nothing happened.

There are huge holes in this whole twilight story because of the fast forward.

The world now knows about demons,other dimensions and vampires but it looks like nobody cares. I know it´s the buffyverse and of course everything is fictional but this sucks. Did they all fall asleep or had another jasmine episode or what?

I want to see the world change because of what happened and nothing like "Hey you know demons exist and they tried to conquer the earth but a girl and a bunch of weirdos saved us" "Wow thats cool but it´s over right?" "Yeah it is" "Okay cool"........

Day 1: The demons came and the people fought back.
Day 2: Lots of innocent people died but the war is over and we won.
Day 3: Breaking news: "Dancing with the stars has a new cast!"

 

[zobothehobo]

Finally i got my issue and read it too. First of all. I liked the issue and the focus on Buffy and the scoobies but and that´s a big but. So here it comes folks. 🙂

I don´t like the 4 or even 6 months gap. It looks like nothing happend. The army lost thousands of soldiers but it seemed nobody really cared about that. Demons tried to conquer the earth and killed roughly thousands of people too if not a lot more and the earth was hit by several nature disasters like earthquakes,volcano eruptions and tsunamis but the humans act like nothing happened.

There are huge holes in this whole twilight story because of the fast forward.

The world now knows about demons,other dimensions and vampires but it looks like nobody cares. I know it´s the buffyverse and of course everything is fictional but this sucks. Did they all fall asleep or had another jasmine episode or what?

I want to see the world change because of what happened and nothing like "Hey you know demons exist and they tried to conquer the earth but a girl and a bunch of weirdos saved us" "Wow thats cool but it´s over right?" "Yeah it is" "Okay cool"........

Day 1: The demons came and the people fought back.
Day 2: Lots of innocent people died but the war is over and we won.
Day 3: Breaking news: "Dancing with the stars has a new cast!"

I'm glad they did a fast forward. I would have hated to get an issue that was like "ok so we won the war, lets all mope around about what happened." The point is life goes on... the war is over and life goes on. The world is in pieces, their worlds are in pieces... and they're not done putting them back together... but the really big chunks like coming to grips with the fact Angel killed Giles and the mere fact magic's done... those are already there.

And I definitely don't think it was implied it looked like your three day suggestion. I don't see that at all.

 

[Icarium]

So a bunch of Earth Wiccans are expected to have major weaponery just lying around, because its going to be so easy to get it, thats of course if they want it, or could afford it, or if its against their morals.I doubt Earth Wiccans are going to be carting around major amo, if they haven't been doing it since the begining, it would be kinda demeaning, and a pain in the ass, its not like all Earth wiccans are great muscle types either. Some slayers aren't off protecting people any more which equals more death to come from this loss. Vampires only need one to survive till magic comes back to spread like a disease, and demons are smart at least the most powerful ones are they are by survival instict going to plan ahead for survival and war.

Who said anything about wiccans? I am thinking the armies or failing that, vigilantes like the Scoobs, only with guns.

Sure you can! You just have to put some ideas on a dart-board: global amnesia, one last spell cast, bullock bullock, and then throw some darts and see what sticks. At this point does it really matter? There would be very little chance that all of the events which transpired in season 8 could be spoke upon.. he wrote himself in a corner. Rebooting, basically what he did, was the only way out.

I am all for rebooting, mind you, but the clumsy way in which it was done is annoying. Would it have been that hard to handwave some explanation? Like the seed's destruction meaning everyone forgot about demons and vampires except for whatever reasons the Scoobies. And it didn't work on those close to the seed for some arcane reason so only they remember. Really, a silly explanation is far better than an elephant in the room.

Finally i got my issue and read it too. First of all. I liked the issue and the focus on Buffy and the scoobies but and that´s a big but. So here it comes folks.

I don´t like the 4 or even 6 months gap. It looks like nothing happend. The army lost thousands of soldiers but it seemed nobody really cared about that. Demons tried to conquer the earth and killed roughly thousands of people too if not a lot more and the earth was hit by several nature disasters like earthquakes,volcano eruptions and tsunamis but the humans act like nothing happened.

There are huge holes in this whole twilight story because of the fast forward.

The world now knows about demons,other dimensions and vampires but it looks like nobody cares. I know it´s the buffyverse and of course everything is fictional but this sucks. Did they all fall asleep or had another jasmine episode or what?

I want to see the world change because of what happened and nothing like "Hey you know demons exist and they tried to conquer the earth but a girl and a bunch of weirdos saved us" "Wow thats cool but it´s over right?" "Yeah it is" "Okay cool"........

Day 1: The demons came and the people fought back.
Day 2: Lots of innocent people died but the war is over and we won.
Day 3: Breaking news: "Dancing with the stars has a new cast!"

I totally agree. I think this is just a symptom of the problem, though. Ever since S4, the BTVS world has been increasingly insular and we see "normal" people more and more rarely. This was bad enough when only Sunnydale was the stage of the action but when the struggle is very public and all over the world, not seeing the reactions of the ordinary people is nigh on unforgivable, IMO. But that's to be expected when the writers are apparently more interested in mocking Twilight than writing a good story or believable world.

 

[VisionGirl]

Would it have been that hard to handwave some explanation? Like the seed's destruction meaning everyone forgot about demons and vampires except for whatever reasons the Scoobies. And it didn't work on those close to the seed for some arcane reason so only they remember. Really, a silly explanation is far better than an elephant in the room.

I was just thinking about something along those lines- maybe they'll explain it in depth in s9. *Shrug*